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Lavry MP10 with DPA 4011's Piano

Discussion in 'Piano' started by audiokid, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Lavry MP10 preamp's with a matched pair of DPA 4011's into an RME ADI-8 QS (ORTF)
    My 13 year old daughter once again. Piano and room aren't the best but what do you think of the Lavry's with the DPA's?

    Sonatina In G Major by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
     
  2. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    Very nice performing!

    There seems to be some phasing between the microphones. This might be from the height of the room or maybe from the mic stand relative to the piano itself. Was it on full stick?
     
  3. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    As to the sound of the microphones, that was great. DPA's are definitely on my short list. I'd be curious of a repeat of this performance with the mics as spaced omni's (angled slightly outward from straight ahead).
     
  4. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    The Omni's/ 2006 caps are beautiful but I hear the room more so it really irritates me. I'll take your lead on that and try it for you tomorrow!
     
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Yes, full stick. I hear that a bit too. You have a good ear. How do I resolve this? there is a wall on the right that is causing something weird there too. maybe that's it? I really need to treat the room but I've kind of given up on it.
     
  6. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    Well, I'd like to hear the space omni's (about 17-20cm) first. I think the height of the ceiling is what is hosing the ORTF pair. This might be where that U87 on the soundboard side of the hammers about C5 PLUS the spaced omni's across the room but not too close to the wall behind them. Is there a doorway on that side of the room you could place the pair in front of?
     
  7. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    there is a wide doorway to a dining room.
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    U87 in Cardioid inside the piano or just outside near C5?
     
  9. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    Inside the piano in omni. I would probably start just past the hammer strike point and shift left or right as my ear dictated. You aren't going to use hardly any of this of course but it makes a very nice body to a stereo pair.
     
  10. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    Nice playing! I'm missing the low bass in the recording, which is typical of cardioids at that distance but is the sort of thing that omnis would pull in.

    I would be surprised if the room reflections intrude excessively with omnis, and it may require some experimentation with mic positioning to get the best balance between direct and ambient sound. With the DPAs in omni, I might even go a little wider than Jack's suggested A-B spacing, but I don't know your piano and he's the pro in that area.
     
  11. Paul999

    Paul999 Active Member

    Nice post audiokid. My yard stick for a recording works like this. If a person walked in off the street and asked you to record piano and you gave them this they would likely be overjoyed. The playing is nice and the recording is not a mismatch for that. When the engineers skill fall short of the performers we have a problem. This sounds great.

    If i go into squint/OCD mode what my nerd brain hears is this. The attacks do get a little aggressive at times and there are some minor reflections from the room. The piano is in tune enough but not 100%. The room reflections and the piano tuning tell me that this is a real piano and my brain likes that. The attacks hit me a little hard distracting me even when I listened on my laptop. (I listened on studio speakers to). Is this an upright piano? If I was a betting man I'd say it was although a nice bright one well maintained. ORTF is one of my favourite stereo micing techniques. It tends to work better in big rooms though. I'm sure you tried X/Y. Your not getting a huge stereo spread here which is good. My opinion on spaced pair is that most of the time I find it too unnatural. It is a bit of a last resort for me. If I was concerned about the room and had done all the treatment I could my gut tells me that I would try X/Y, ORTF(which you've already done)Mid-side and then spaced pair. This is the order from what I think will be the most effective to least in your situation. Sometimes in a small room a dynamic like an SM57 can yield surprising results to reduce room reflections with the right pre. Somtimes just a hint of a direct mic can solve a lot. I do this when I mic quartets. ORFT about 6-8ft back and a direct sm57 on each. I've had less then zero luck with omnis in a small room. I've never used DPA's though. Mostly KM84's, 414's, sm-81's and good ol sm57's.

    I'm not sure how informative that was since we are still getting to know what each other knows.

    Cheers
     
  12. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Thanks for the comments everyone. I love doing these.

    I'm more stoked on the accuracy of the DPA with the Lavry pre's ! I tried some subtle compression last night and it helped those hammer attacks immensely but I didn't want anything in the chain other than the raw take. I want you to hear those Lavry pres with the 4011's. Wow I say but... I realize now its not easy, or impossible to hear how tight they sound with this piano and small room. Bummer... but I'm going to try a few other suggestions tonight. thumb

    Never the less, I see you'd have to be in the room to hear how accurate this combo translated. Or can you hear what I'm talking about? This combo is so slick that it convinced me to sell my FF800 and order 2 AD11's for my mobile rig.

    I should have mentioned this: The piano is a 5' 10" Kawai Parlour Grand ( a nice way to say Baby Grand :) in desperate need for restoring. The felts are almost into wood. It has been voices to death and the strings are original and tight. Its hard to keep it in tune for long with the amount of playing my girls are doing a day on it. It's a beautiful Japan version but its worn. I'm debating restoring it or buying a new one.

    I'm going to eventually do this all more pro in one of our Churches so I really appreciate you all helping me get my chops up. Recording piano's is a whole new world for me and its gaining momentum. I'm going to need a lot of help!

    I'll try your suggestions tonight and post soon. Thanks!!!
     
  13. Paul999

    Paul999 Active Member

     
  14. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Paul,

    I tried XY in this room and it sounded really nice (for what I'm working with) . Royer 122's in Blumlein over the hammers was crazy cool but both those suit Rock and Roll I'm thinking. Wow, there are so many ways to record piano.
     
  15. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    I think the tuning and the close proximity to the wall gives that upright impression and schools me on how room acoustics and piano location can effect our sense of what kind of piano we think it is. You did well from that perspective and thank you for the vote of confidence!
     
  16. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    When you go to a church to record you will be learning it all over again because of the space. At that point with a concert grand in good shape, I would but your Royer SF24 right up close-within 1-2m-and then use the DPA's in ORTF from about 5m back and 4m tall. All this is rough starting point without knowing the piano and church. Alternatively, you could put the DPA's in omni in the piano towards the tail pointing down at the bass bridge and the other pointing down towards the soundboard six inches (the mic angle not the mic position) from C5. Then use the SF24 back about 4m and about 2-2.5m tall.

    As to accuracy of the DPA's, I'm in love. I didn't think it sounded like a vertical but I can tell how some might think so. I guess I have my head in too many pianos as a matter of course. It's a love hate thing. I am a little obsessed with good piano tone like you are with hybrid summing.
     
  17. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Thanks for the tips John. I know the space is going to be different all over again but just playing with it all now, is all so helpful for me.

    I know I know! DPA's ooooh la la, they are so true and headroom galore! Yesterday blew my mind!
    Okay we're all omni city here plus I tuned the piano a bit (still needs more but we can hear past that). I have the U87 in place and YA! I'm hearing the love between the 2006 and U87. You are going to love this next take. Its much better.
    The U87 is around C5 , 8 " above and 10" behind the hammers. Omni - Its all sounding similar to me. What are you listening for John?

    I have the 2006's in the dining room doorway. It sounds better to me in that area (less hammer attack) so I'll try there first.

    Just waiting for the performer to walk in, hehe!

    ( using GR MP-2NV for the U87)
     
  18. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Okay, she'd kill me if she knew I posted this. I talked her into recording this for me without warming up so there are some mistakes but I think it sounds better. Tuned the piano a bit more. This is the above config John suggested. Added some lite compression.

    thoughts?

    SonatinaGMajor-MP10-2006-U87 by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
     
  19. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Here is another song with the U87 and DPA 2006's I like this one:
    Nocturne in CSMinorChopin by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
     
  20. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    OK. So some of the phasing is resolved. How little of the U87 did you use and did you delay it to match the distance to the DPA's? Basically the U87 is to very very subtly fill out the body. 99% should be from the stereo pair. I will sometimes use a very light compression on the close mic (U87 in this case).

    At this point I am having trouble discerning what is simply a sour temperament and bad unisons and what is the room. I'm also guessing the strings are not level to the hammers but that will be fixed on the rebuild. I really hear it when the sustain pedal is engaged but even dry.

    The playing of course is very nice.
     

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