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MADI works great with the Orion 32

Discussion in 'Recording' started by audiokid, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Not much more to add on this OP other than say, I have been on PCIe AES for years. I've switched to an RME MADI PCIe interface last night and did 64 tracks at 88.2 including midi and vsti processing without a glitch.

    I'm summing 32 tracks AD and my system is shockingly fast and very stable. The latency is barely noticeable. I even went so far as to loop one bar and do numerous overdubs for a min. It never lost sync and the overdubs recorded seamlessly. I am thrilled!

    Hope that helps someone wondering. MADI is very cool.
  2. ric3xrt

    ric3xrt Active Member

    Hopefully Next year I'll be able to get into MADI Most of what I'm doing now is just in my small music room.
  3. audiokid

    audiokid Staff


    I'm using the new Orion 32. Its not near as stable with usb but rocks with madi!

    Small or large studio, stability doesn't matter for this update. I didn't buy it to travel the long distance madi is known for. Bought because I heard it was an improvement with the Orion and it is indeed.
    Four , 15 hour days and not one single hick-up, and I mean nothing! 16 instances of melodyne added, which has always caused latency issues and occasional crashes for me. This is the most stable interface ever.
  4. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    I wanted to ask you about that converter. It is on my radar at this point. It sounds like the thing to have. I still work on a mac. Does the MADI protocol have any differences with this?
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Hi Dave,

    It Should work just fine for PC or Mac providing you have an open PCIe slot and the extra second space required for additional MIDI and an external BNC connect.
    The card I have is the RME PCIe MADI. There is a new version called the PCIe MADI FX which I'm told is an improvement for a few extra features but this wasn't worth the expense for me. I got this used for $850. What a deal.
  6. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Hi Chris. I have a couple of open slots on the Mac. I'm not quite ready for all this money-wise but my ears are to the point where I simply can't stand the Digi conversion any more. I can hear the differences quite clearly when just rock solid clocking is added to any Digi interface and it makes you wonder.....I track mostly through the Alesis HR24 as a converter and it seems to give things a musical quality I dont find with the 003. I really only use the 003 as a motorized mixer so its going to go also. Maybe a Euphonics in its place. I like the tactile thing with the sliders a lot more than automating in the box. I'm simply better at it. Now the Orion thing comes along. So a MADI card and the Orion will do the trick?? I'm also thinking of adding the second machine. Maybe with the great converters and clocking PT won't make me feel like I'm banging my head against a tree. Your thoughts?
  7. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    When you can, and if nothing else presents itself , do it, you will not regret.

    The MADI card I use is PCIe, not PCI. There is a performance increase with PCIe. So, hopefully your Mac has one PCIe slot available for that. Thats all you need. The other slot is for the BNC/MIDI card that connects a ribbon cable to the main card. So in essence, you need two slots so the BNC card is beside the main card. Make sense, thus, taking up two slots?

    I've seen used Orion 32's go used for $2650. RME MADI PCIe for $850.

    You will also need a
    Fiber Optic Cable, SC/SC, OM1, Multi Mode, Duplex - 3 meter (62.5/125 or 50/125.

    I got this super cheap and it works great. $16.84
    Fiber Optic Cable, SC/SC, OM1, Multi Mode, Duplex - 3 meter (62.5/125 Type) - Orange at PrimeCables Canada

    That will give you 32 channels of ADDA at 96k. Rocking.
  8. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Thanks Chris. My Mac is a modern Intel chipped one. It doesnt do PCI/PCIx only PCIe. I have a source for all things cable related. On a side note they have sold two of the AT5040's now. So I dont have one they'll let me get spit in at the store. Their description goes farther than the reviews I have read. The soundfield is unlike anything else. There is no special pricing AT is very strict with this product.

    Now all I gotta do is get the money. I retired last month from being an electrician so its time to get a bit more serious about the studio. I figure I'm an easy 10K away from being set for a while now. I gotta upgrade the monitors too. And PT. 11 probably. In two machines....yowza.....maybe 10k aint enough!
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Re 5040, thanks again. I am debating and still unsure. I've heard there are some proximity issues. Maybe not the best for young singers that move around. What do you think?

    Have you heard anything like this yet?
  10. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    You mean a capture DAW (uncoupled) for independent mixdown ?
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Speaking about the Orion 32, look at this deal. The guy must be crazy selling it for this.
  12. ric3xrt

    ric3xrt Active Member

    Missed out on the Price, now the thread only thanks for interest....what was the Price?
  13. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Yes. This is the direction I think I'll need to go. Lots of smaller studios in this area and the only way of competing is to sound better. This seems to be exactly what I want to hear. Boswell's description and yours, brings this full circle for me. I have a bunch of questions but it would seem that conversion at a higher quality is the lynchpin.
  14. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

    As a lurker, I might add in a addition to better conversion, a decent monitor controller, the difference between the Mackie big knob and the Coleman monitor controllers was huge at the studio.
  15. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Yes indeed Kyle!
    To echo, my monitor control system is the key component to this entire set-up. Without that, it would be broken.
  16. Makzimia

    Makzimia Active Member

    Greetings all,

    Hopefully it's OK to jump in here, since this is MADI and Orion related. I have been coming here for a while but have had nothing to ask or contribute. I have enjoyed reading reviews and opinions of personal use a LOT. I will understand if no one has time to help, but, I do have a new setup which may be on someone's radar of use. I have owned an Orion 32 for about a year. Until now I have been using it on the USB ports.. not the greatest experience initially and it has it's foibles as audiokid discovered under far more use than I have given it.

    Anyway, to the thrust of the matter. I am finally in the middle of building a studio in my spare apartment. I have invested in more outboard gear and a couple of Focusrite Octopre Mk2 Dymanics to replace my Mackie 1640i Onyx. With the Orion 32 I am planning to put a RME HDSPe PCIx MADI card in the Mac Pro. So, what I want to be able to do within Logic Pro X is.. bring the signals in through the Orion from the Focusrites. Into the MADI (Logic) back out to various EQ Comp etc and back in again. Where I am at loss is whether that is possible without a patchbay using just the DB25s on the Orion. I did see reference on Antelopes site about some kid doing it.

    My background was mostly on a VS1880 and I have been stumbling sometimes successfully and sometimes not ever since I switched into first an Aardvark Q10 and then onwwards!. Current new setup now has a MCU Pro and extender. Finally getting away from not having direct control of multiple faders!, hurrah.

    Edit: Almost forgot, going to SUM to a Dangerous D-BOX.

    Any help would be much appreciated in advice. I have looked about and this has by far been the richest source of people who actually use the sort of stuff I am trying to :).


  17. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    You'd be way better off capturing to a second daw over the round trip. Its by far superior to the round trip. Don't believe anything about investing in the 10M either, its complete nonsense, especially if you capture and learn what I do.
    Never the less, buy used Xpatches!! They have been discontinued because people don't get it. I have two and love them. I can track, mix and master at any given time without loosing a beat. Don't waste your time on the old school patch bays when you are at this level. This is the bomb. There are a few other digital brands of patchbays, but the SSL XPatch is what I use. And they are flawless.
    Sounds like you are building a nice setup, kudo's!
  18. Makzimia

    Makzimia Active Member

    Thanks for the reply audiokid :). I hoped you may reply, but didn't expect so quickly. So, because the SSL Xpatch is not on my shopping available list, wife put the choker on it now :D. Can I use say a Tiqae X85? That looked like a great way to go due to it's DB25 niceness. Worst case scenario, with going up and out, and no I have NO intention of falling for the 10M thing. Will I lose much really if I used I/O out on stems and back in?. Orion 32 mixer told where to bring it in and out?.

    If I do go out to patch (X85) and back in, the beast Mac Pro can run say a PT session say, I guess if needed in addition to LPX. Forgive me if I drift on this a bit, because I am still wearing my L plates on this sort of setup very much.


  19. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Hi Tony,

    Without this turning into a book, in a nut shell, I think external hardware via stems and round trip is pretty much a joke now. I know I can produce better mixes using a few key products with an analog mastering matrix over oodles of hardware via the round trip. Not one process I did couldn't be done better with better tracking from client or me, ITB mixing and hybrid 2-bus processing via a mastering matrix that AD to a capture DAW. This is where the patchbay lives now. I've completely removed all gear between the 32 channels. Basically those are simply there to elevate some ITB cramming and to rout the DA out to the Mastering Matrix. I do however, still use 8 channels for external effects but they are static and don't need a patchbay.
    I come out of the Orion, into the Effect and into one of the 8 channels of the mixer. I never go back to the same DAW! NEVER!

    I put all my attention into great tracking quality and 2-bus (mastering level ) finishing. I bet I'm about 5 years ahead of what people are just starting to discover. We are going to see a big surge in hardware and new consoles but its going to be a total gong show to me. To my hears, the magic is between the analog 2-bus and the capture process, not round trip processing with racks of gear. Save your money and put it into key analog finishing tools.
    In fact, I have now been able to mix better and much faster without any hardware while capturing to a second DAW. But, I'm also using Sequoia 12, which has an incredible mixer and mastering section so this may be part of it all. After getting thousands of $ in analog products over the last few years, I won't tell you what gear I think is useless to me now, but I will tell you what I think are essentials. Something like the Dangerous Master and Dangerous Monitor ST are essentials to me, And I hate saying that because they don't even support us here. (n)(n)(n)(n)
    I hope someone builds similar products because they are the only show in town that gets this done for me.
    But even then, the analog matrix is now becoming a questionable expense that I may just be ready to drop.. 2 DAW's and a few processing tricks are getting me really excited.

    A patchbay that connects to your analog matrix which consists of high end tracking gear, which seconds as finishing level ( mastering gear) is all you need. And you don't need much! Basically a few excellent Comps, EQ are everything I need.
    As you grow into this, I would expect you will find mixing into a master is where it all happens. and, round trip, patching gear like a plug-in, example, API 2500 on your drum bus and back again is pointless. Its a complete waste of money . In fact, the latency and smearing you get is unacceptable once you start hearing and cleaning up your chain like I am suggesting.
    To my ears, Pro Tools and round trip sounds like smear. Its what everyone is doing. Its created an economy but imho, a losing battle. . When I get a mix, the first thing I notice is how bad the phasing is. smearing and swirl that people don't hear. Its ironic. Good for me though.

    Anyway, yes, that patchbay will work. Looks perfectly suitable for what you are needing. The RME Madi interface has a superior mixer than the Orion. The Orion mixer is useless to me.

    Hope that helps?
  20. Makzimia

    Makzimia Active Member

    Phew, that's a lot of reading ;). Thanks mate. I am up on what you are talking about. The only reason I mentioned PT was for another session on top of what I use, Logic Pro X. It sounds like we are on the same thread of thought now. I just need to know how I can made the RME do the mixing for me without touching the Orions Mixer, which frankly I HATE with a vengeance. It's all theory until I finish the soundproofing, install it all and get at it.

    Back when I was flying the VS1880 it was all done as I was recording, then out to DA20 via a DBX dual 31 EQ and a DBX Quantum. That was the extent of my pathing :). I have an RC500 a DBX 231S a DBX Quantum and Lexicon MX500 ver2, also a few other bits like a tascam VP and 3 TC Helicon voice units.

    Here's how I *THINK* my path wants to be, Focusrites TRS - DB25 into Orion, Orion into RME MADI. RME MADI Back out to Orion, Orion DB25 to patchbay, outboard fx. Back in DB25, then out DB25 to summing. Or am I still missing the route. For now I am stuck with the one machine so doing out to a separate Mac or PC is not on my can haves. If I come back into a separate DAW program on the same Mac Pro would I get away with that, not ever tried it. I do have vienna ensemble pro by the way, if that helps the equation.

    Many thanks and hoping I am not already straining your generous use of time on me.



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