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mesa boogie channel tube breakdown

Discussion in 'Recording' started by liquidstudios, Sep 22, 2006.

  1. what exactly is the mesa tube diode channel break down. they have tons of tubes in them but which channel uses what. and im familiar with the multi-watt function in some of the amps. but does anyone know?
     
  2. pr0gr4m

    pr0gr4m Well-Known Member

  3. hey man that's cute and i find it somewhat helpful but since you might be better at reading those little hand drawn schematics than me, would you possibly summarize the channel break up of the tubes (if any) for the amps on mesa boogies website?
     
  4. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    First off and to somewhat answer your question, when I think of diodes in reference to amplification, the first thing that comes to mind is a bridge rectifier. In this case the rectifier which, although has more to do with power output, enhances Mesa's famous distortion because of the way it "pushes" the tubes to saturation(someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

    Secondly, I think that if you have to ask this question then finding the answer will serve you no purpose whatsoever. If you really want to get into the meat of what makes tubes work, you'll need to find out just what those "cute" pictures mean. Until you have a good grasp of that, I would suggest not to go poking around in a tube amplifier as there is enough juice running through those things to kill you if you mess things up somehow.

    This is what I call biting off more than you can chew. It's good to be curious. The bottom line is however, that if you really want to know, you're going to have to read about it or take a class. This is not something you can pick up with sheer "talent".

    It's good to ask but again, what purpose will it serve you to know the answer.
     
  5. haha i missed you hueseph. what good will it do me, well i'm in the market for a head and i don't really want opinions. i've been looking at the jcm 800. don't recommend any fenders or vox, they are great but i don't want one. anyways it's not for me "poking" around. the reason a lot of tone junkies hate the new marshalls is because they may carry 8 tubes in the whole unit but they are broken down into channel and end up using at tops 4. the TSL 100 is the only decent one left which is basically really similar i believe to the JCM 900, correct me if i'm wrong i may have ^#$%ed up counting the tubes on my fingers.

    anyways i was never into mesa, knew a little about them. then went and looked at their amps seriously, and those things have a shitload of tubes in them. but what i want to know is what channel uses how many tubes. spare the classification of the tube itself and leave out any reverb tubes or tubes that won't be commonly used in terms of simple clean/distortion. yeah your rectifier logic is pretty simple and most likely true. but that doesnt tell me what i need to know. those spec diagrams might, but i'm not exactly sure as how to read it. so can any of you at least tell me if the mesas break up their tubes per channel or if it is a single channel strip like the jcm 800 or 1959spl?

    it's confusing because for the preamp section they have an odd numbered amount of tubes (5) which seems to me odd. and i realize the multi-watt function, curious to know exactly how that works. does it work like an AVT series for marshall? and heuseph i realize you like to say google it, i used to be a lot more self-sufficient but i'm getting lazy man. besides if you guys don't like actually helping people why the hell do you even bother. don't answer that, i don't care.
     
  6. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    If you look at the specs, they clearly identify each channel. I didn't see any specs with 5 tubes. I don't know anything about Marshall AVTs, however the multi wattage I believe simply works by cutting out tube stages in the power amp section. Example: http://www.tubefreak.com/hrtbrkpw.gif
    I don't see how else this could work without sacrificing tone.
     
  7. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member


    OH MY GAWD...!!!

    Do you have a CLUE about tube amplifier design? AT ALL???

    Do you understand even in the slightest how tubes are wired together in a circuit? It doesnt have so much to do with HOW MANY as to HOW MUCH OF EACH is being used.....

    This whole quote shows exactly what you have no clue about... And YEAH! No one on here likes "helping people....." ESPECIALLY those that "dont care"....

    How can you expect people to "help" you , when by your own admission, you simply dont care what they think....?

    But you still want answers..... even though you dont respect the other person you're EXPECTING these answers from.....


    You really are a prick...

    BTW ...Earlier you have posted comments that allude to you "loving the JCM800....Do you own one? HAVE YOU ever PLAYED ON ONE FOR A PROFESSIONAL GIG? Do you really have any idea at all, how one sounds in different rooms? I've owned three. My guitarist presently has one. I hear one a LOT. I play on one a LOT.


    You're a sham. Be a man and be real about yourself.


    Its not a crime to be a newby...


    Unless you act like a prick and still expect people to help you...


    Then you're being a SELFISH prick.


    And you really have NO IDEA what "tone junkies" say about things...Just what you've read, and with your limited knowledge and use of the English language ,its probably comic books or catalogs.
     
  8. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    Hey all.

    In order to provide accurate information to members let me clarify the Mesa diode/tube configuration. Lets first clarify that we are talking about AC 120v/220v input power supply section , not the preamp or output power amp section.

    Yes it refers to the rectifier circuit, where the AC line or mains first enters your amp from the wall plug.

    The AC, or alternating current needs to be changed to DC, direct current- in other words, the current has to be rectified.

    Before silicone technology came along to give us solid state(silicone based) transistors, diodes, fet's ect, ect, circuitry was tube based including the rectifier.

    Tube rectifiers didn't do a perfect job and wore out like tubes do. Upon transient peak demand for electrical current, happening when you pick a note on your electric guitar, the tube rectifier lagged a little, in its duties to provide instantaneous response to provide current.
    Guess what? Guitars players liked this mushy function for certain styles of playing. It loosens things up a bit in a desireable way.

    Then technically better came along the more reliably functioning solid state four way bridge rectifier using-you guessed it- four diodes. The current provided to all the amplifier circuits recieved a faster response for its power demands, faster tighter transient response. It is also well suited for certain styles.

    So Mesa has gone the extra mile to provide both options, allowing switching between two types of rectifiers, either solid state or tube. Fender has this function on its Prosonic.

    IMHO this is very gimmicky and misleading for amp manufacturers to provide this function, because the rest of the amplifier design should be considered after the choice of rectifier- and they certainly are not doing this, or at best are providing median or comprimising abilities. They're also moving away from simplicity, and creating more things to break down.

    The switch is usually on the back, suggesting it is a set and forget type thing...most players will settle in to one or the other and not want to go back and forth with it in a particular amp.

    OK, you've been corrected brother!
    (y)

    Tommy P.
     
  9. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah, can I just say that one needs to just plug into a great amp and play the hell out of it?

    Tech talk...uhggg.
     
  10. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    Thanks for straightening that out. :lol:
     
  11. dave dog quit bein a disgruntled asshole, time and time again i ask these questions out of curiousity and seeking understanding in the form of enlightenment. i don't know if i refer to myself as a "newbie" but i've stated time and time again that i am new at this. so ^#$% off if you have nothing constructive to add.

    i've looked up information about the mesas. now i kind of am curious about if what hueseph said is true. because i've noticed that each channel will share a set of tubes. and i don't see how that could take place without compromising tone. it's not like on the marshalls where there are 2 or 4 1/4" TRS inputs that signify the number of channels (whilst still remaining in the context of being a single channel) nonetheless it still goes through the whole input to output stage. the newer marshalls share tubes among channels to a certain extent at least more than the older ones.

    for instance on the 2:50 if you have it bridged i assume you can obviously run through all of the tubes. if that is only in a sense then please correct me. however for individual channels it will use its own power 6L6's but does it transist the preamp tubes to the other side from channel A, or what? so it will be like 2 power tubes on each side and 3 preamp tubes on one side. so what about the preamp tubes to the other side?

    for the recto recording pre it seems that there is 1 tube designated to each channel, then the remaning 4 are shared among the channels. how exactly does that work? again does it transist it in a similar nature to the AVT series. or are you literally running through 5 tubes when you select each channel?

    i haven't been able to understand say the triple rectifier as much or the lonestar, so if anyone can help clarify what i've stated above or help with these two amps, it would be appreciated.

    actually maybe someone could even clarify which tubes are designated to which rotary knobs and/or functions, if that is even possible in this case. there's just so much liberal free love tube sharing among these mesas. :lol: also i believe that all the FX loops are tube driven among mesas, is that right? so yeah i'm wondering the tube sharing among commonly used functions not including something like the FX loop.

    and davedog, you really will do anything to get out of answering a question. in the same sense that it's okay for me to be a "newbie" it's also okay for you to take your 139309304934 posts and admit that you can barely touch the tip of the iceberg. jesus christ i mean come on man look at your post, you did a wonderful job of attempting to slam me, but you completely ignored anything about the topic. thanks for your great insight, but please don't hijack these threads in a sense to give your nonsense. we all know that you think i have no idea about anything, so just leave it alone, there are plenty of people here who don't and if you want to lump me in with them and put a yellow dot sticker signifying that i'm an asshole, then fine. but if you want to be constructive bless us with your knowledge and at least TRY to answer a question or two.
     
  12. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    'quidstud third of all, 12AX7 tubes are two tubes in one to answer another question you won't understand and don't need to.

    Second of all, read my second post in this thread. Don't bother reading my first post that answered your question about solid state and tube rectification in power supplies... you won't get that either...

    but first of all, and try and get this one, its really important: DON'T COME INTO THIS FORUM INSULTING PEOPLE WHOSE TOOL BOX YOU A'INT QUALIFIED TO EVEN CARRY. ummm am I shouting? I'm sorry young man. I'm just trying to reach out and touch someone, and its hard to do thru a 'puter screen. Get my drift?

    BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD. IT'LL DO YOU SOME GOOD.

    Like I care. geez.
     
  13. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    "Disgruntled"...? Only at you. "Asshole"...To some but certainly not to a majority...."Getting out of answering a question"...Its not really 'getting out of it' if I dont intend to answer YOUR particular question in the first place. "Slamming you"...NOT an attempt, an actual success.

    What I know about equipment and the recording world is nothing compared to some, to others its a lifetime of trial and error.

    "^#$% off if you dont have anything constructive to add"....Why I believe that keeping you inline is a very constructive activity.


    As I have said as well as MANY others, you have ZERO manners. And until you grow some, your time here is going to be continually interrupted by these little 'life lessons' that I am giving you.

    And yeah, you cant carry most of the peoples guitar cases that post on here. T.P. and others answered your questions and once again you blew right by what they gave you.

    The key word here is "GAVE". No one owes you anything. This is a privately owned public forum. There are rules and then there are also civilities that you so desparately do NOT understand, and until you DO understand them and abide by them its not going to be a pleasant journey for you here. You may certainly expect to see me everywhere you go. You have the right to complain to the management.....so, go ahead and complain. I'm listening as are all the other 'managers/mods'.

    I'm going to warn you , if you dont begin SOON to do things the way they are done here, if you are not nicer to others, in short if you do not play nice then you're gonna find yourself with nowhere to post .

    You can say anything you like to me personally. I'm a grown -up and I have heard it all before. But watch your manners with others.


    Hers a suggestion. It was said to you by Tommy P already but you probably think its not important. Here it tis.


    Shut-up. If you want information, try condensing it to a SINGLE question and then let the next question begin from the responses.

    Try not to make witty reparte' when you have no talent for it. It comes off as argumentative and brash....both major turn-offs to those who would help but dont need the crappola.

    And finally shut-up and listen.
     
  14. davedog, don't expect me to have manners with you after you post a reply such as the one you did. it's the golden rule in action.

    tommy p., i read what you had to offer, and no you guys don't OWE me an answer, but if you are going to reply to my topic what is the point of not answering the questions that i ask? i really don't feel like i've disrespected anybody for no reason. but tommy, i mean maybe you could answer my question like directly and to the point. i've found that people may know what they are talking about, but are confused as to how to answer my question, or possibly they don't know what they are talking about. but to anyone who knows can you possibly tell me WHAT TUBES are being used in these multi-channel amplifiers. i've stated what i thought to be the correct answer, but i'm openly willing to admit that i am wrong; maybe you could give me the summarized tube layout of what one channel uses in the DSL and TSL's, the Recto/ triple rectifier, possibly the lonestar, and maybe tell me if this analysis on the bogners is correct.

    bogner ecstasy 10 tubes total - ch 1/2 - 7 ch 3 - 8
    bogner uberschall 10 tubes total - ch 1 - 7 ch 2 - 8
    bogner duende 8 tubes total - ch 1 - 6 ch 2 - 7
    bogner metropolis 11 tubes total - 8 tubes w/o reverb
    bogner fish preamp 8 tubes total - ch 1 - 2 ch 2/3 - 4 ch 4 - 3
     
  15. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    I dont believe I posted a 'reply' as such, but a warning as to how you will conduct yourself on this site.

    I reiterate, asking lengthy and multi-faceted questions as you continue to do, tries the patience and good-will of the community.

    If you really want to know about tube-amp design, why dont you research it through the web. There are much more definitive answers to these questions once you understand the purpose for these designs. Until then it is a waste of everyones time to try and educate someone who ,by his own admission, "doesnt care about the community' and what those involved think of him.

    Besides, as TP said...just plug it in and play it....if you dont like it try another one.

    Whether you know how many preamp tubes are being used in a channel will have no effect whatsoever on your ability to express yourself through music.


    Oh and as far as threats are concerned....bring on your 'golden rule'....meat.
     
  16. Tommy P.

    Tommy P. Well-Known Member

    Whoa dooood! Magnificent! You're very good at this stupid thing!
    I hereby dub thee LiquidStooge. :-?

    No other before you, not even JP has been bestowed the honor of an official nick. With computer mouse in one hand, and a Bogner Shiva manual in the other, you will possess great powers of confusion and tangental arguement, as you troll on, one post at a time, creating a yellow stain behind you.

    Carry on.
    (Tommy P. falls to one knee and tips hat)
     
  17. alright i'm going to take it that the people i am talking don't know the answers to my multi-faceted questions. to anyone that does and would find it no problem to answer any of my questions Directly, feel free.
     
  18. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    Listen carefully. It is so plainly obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. You quite plainly looking at manuals or pdfs of manuals and posting questions that are moot. Yes, idiotic even. What the hell do you think the preamp tubes are doing. Do you have any idea what a preamp is? Is it maybe slightly possible that the preamp stage is there to boost the level of the guitar input to line level so that the amplification stage can amplify a proper line level signal? Hmmm. Think about it. It's a basic concept.

    Now on another note. You don't seem to realize that the people here are professionals. Uh...yeah. That's right. This is their work. Ask questions of value and you will get answers of value. Hey! You might actually learn something! Concept!

    I get the feeling that you are most definitely here merely to troll. No one could possibly be as moronic as you seem. Tommy P. gave you a solid answer to your original question. The rest of your questions have been somewhere in the lines of "why is fire hot?". Because it is dude. Tube amps use tubes to amplify. That's what they do. Doesn't matter what stage of the amp it's in. That's what they do. Period.

    Please! Do us all a favor and read a book. I don't even know that much about electronics but these concepts seem pretty elementary even to me.
    Read a book. Or just get a tech to do the detail work. C'mon! You should be able to afford it once you get signed. Oh wait. You're still working on a finished project.

    I'm still waiting to hear your masterful guitar playing. Bring it on man. We're all listening.
     
  19. didn't even bother reading it hue. i've stayed on topic this entire time, i'm sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear. or what you weren't able to answer.

    tommy p's question was more of a response to your analysis, concerning the rectifier theory and maybe a bit of multi-watt function.

    but neither of them go out and directly answer my questions.

    also i mistyped before the DSL 100 uses 1 input tube, 4 output, and has 1 designated reverb tube per channel. the TSL 100 uses 1 input tube, 4 out, and 1 shared reverb tube among the channels. so obviously the JCM 800 is a single channel unit like the '59 but where does that leave the JCM 900? especially considering it has its own master volume and reverb per channel? i most likely don't expect an answer.



    if you all were really that good, or at least just better than my sorry ass, you would have absolutely no problem answering my questions at hand. that is if YOU really knew what you were talking about.
     
  20. pr0gr4m

    pr0gr4m Well-Known Member

    Without starting a completely new path for this thread to take, I would like to bring up a MAJOR point.

    This is recording.org. Not guitarparts.org or equipmentspecs.org. We mostly discuss recording here. YES, this section is specifically for guitar and bass, but I would guess that the intention behind creating this section was to focus on the recording of guitar and bass. Sure, equipment can be and is discussed here, but as this is recording.org, there is one thing over all that matters. SOUND.

    This is why you've seen responses like "...just plug in and play..." or "...the listening environment makes a difference...". If it sounds great, that's all that's important. And if it does sounds good who cares what's under the hood. Many people here DO know what is under the hood, concerning all sorts of equipment, but sharing that knowledge doesn't tell a person if the piece of equipment is going to sound good or bad.

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that to many of us, the sound is what's important and we try to first understand the situation behind any new questions or posts so that we can make informed recommendations/answers that will be helpful to them.

    Here's some advice, when you create a new thread asking a question (following the the KISS rule) and you get 2, 3 or 4 replies that don't answer it, don't reply re-iterating your question again as it is most likely that no one will be able to answer it. This is something that I do a lot. If my question isn't answered within a few replies, I figure that no one can answer it and I move on. I'll look for a different or more appropriate forum.

    BTW... I'm sure you could get the exact answer you want for this question on one of the many different guitar specific forums/websites.
     

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