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Need live multitrack on the cheap.

Discussion in 'Recording' started by mddittman, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. mddittman

    mddittman Guest

    I already have an original 01V with 8 channel ADAT out.

    We need to record some live tracks from our shows... I was shown the MOTU 8Pre at a local music store and I'm considering buying it.

    From what I understand, I can use the 8 channels of ADAT and add a few more channels via the analog pre's, and grab the tracks via firewire in Audacity or some other program.

    I don't know the first thing about recording, we're just looking for a way to get some tracks on the computer so that we can do some level manipulation and some post-production stuff so that we can have a halfway decent demo, something more than whatever gets captured from a digital camera or something. We're trying to do this on a budget; I have no interest in building a recording studio in my basement... will this work for us?

    I am thinking that the MOTU 8pre, plus a PMCIA firewire adapter, plus an external firewire 7200rpm drive should get us what we need?
  2. rockstardave

    rockstardave Active Member

    or, spend $300 on a pro who has pro equipment and will do a pro job with your demo.
  3. mddittman

    mddittman Guest

    That's been talked about as well.

    We'd like to be able to capture any show we want, whenever we want.

    And if there's a decent piece of equipment that will get us started in that direction, I'd rather invest in that instead of expensing it.

    ETA: Let's remove the word "cheap" and replace it with "inexpensive" or "economical."
  4. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    My first question is this, how many individual tracks do you need to record at one time? More than 8 mics?

    The manual for the 01v:
    In the 01V default setup, Bus Outputs 1-4 are assigned to Option I/O card outputs 1-4, and again to Option card outputs 5-8. Use the Option I/O button to assign the 4 Aux buses to the Option I/O card outputs. The 4 Aux buses, together with the 4 main buses will facilitate 8 track simultaneous recording. /quote

    IMHO this isn't the best way to get individual tracks into a DAW but it can be made to work in a studio. For live gigs all you are going to be able to do is subgroup some instruments together and get a live mix but there won't be much you can do to it afterwards.

    So again maybe a few more specifics on how many mic's you are using and maybe what they're on (eg 6 on the drum kit).
  5. mddittman

    mddittman Guest

    We have triggered drums, so that reduces the channels greatly.

    (4) vocals
    (1) guitar
    (1) bass
    (1) keys - sometimes
    (1) kick drum
    (1) hi-hat
    (1) e-drums

    The guy at the music store said that the 8pre would allow me to use the 8 ADAT inputs and add the rest via the mic preamps... and that by hooking the 8pre up to my computer via firewire, I would be able to capture each track individually in whatever software I choose to use. So I should be able to capture 10 or so tracks in realtime, no problem.

    If I can do this, then this might be a great solution for us. I just don't want to buy the 8pre and find out that it DOESN'T... because then it would be useless for our purposes. I attempted to find the 8pre manual online, but it appears that MOTU doesn't make the pdf available, and a hardcopy is $20.

    ETA: we have tried to use the Omni Out into an MP3 recorder, and it sounds pretty darn good... except we don't have time to listen to the mp3s during the break, adjust the faders accordingly, etc. For example, I have 4 hours of music where the guitar is just 10% too loud, another gig where the vocals had too much reverb, etc. If I could get dry tracks I could mess with them at home and get them close enough.
  6. soapfloats

    soapfloats Well-Known Member

    The MOTU should do what you need.
    One question though - you're trying to track to an external HD from the MOTU via firewire? I would think you would need a DAW on that HD for that to work properly. Maybe not?
    If so, a laptop w/ enough mem for the DAW and your raw tracks should work. You can then transfer the files to a desktop later.

    I am just concerned that things won't be in sync w/o a DAW on your HD.
  7. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    You should be able to add the 01v to the Motu 8pre and vice versa via the ADAT. You will need two optical cables and the MOTU will return to the 01v in channels 17-24.

    I see from the 01v manual that the ADAT outs can be assigned as individual sticks so you could effectively record 16 individual channels (at 44.1k) through the MOTU 8pre via firewire into a DAW. That will work for the studio just fine.

    For live gigs, you will probably want a 1:2 splitter similar to the ART S8 so that whatever goes to the 8pre also goes to the 01v and hence to the stereo mix. That way you get all 10 channels + a stereo mix all at once into your computer.
  8. mddittman

    mddittman Guest

    Can't I use software on my computer for a DAW, which will then write to the hard drive?

    I know my way around live sound, but this recording thing is really new to me.

    We aren't running in stereo at this time.

    What I was thinking was to use an Omni channel to roughly set the levels, dry, and route that to the ADAT and then to the 8pre.

    Thanks for all your input... this is really helping me get a grasp on this.
  9. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    Well, if your goal is to be able to tweak levels then you need to record all channels individually. Any track that is a combination of multiple channels is pretty much untweakable. Running these into your computer DAW is independent of your live mix.

    Your live main outs could also be assigned into the 01v ADAT for a scratch track too if desirable.

    The computer/DAW should then save all the audio onto a firewire hard drive for best results-or a separate internal HD if it's a desktop. That way you can tweak levels for your live gig without screwing up the recording. You can adjust the recorded tracks anyway you want later in your comfy chair.

    If you are good with live sound then think of shows with FOH and MON stations. The snake is usually split and signal sent to two spots. In the case one adds a recording station, frequently a three way split is used. In your case your FOH is doing double duty. The goal while similar are not the same.
  10. mddittman

    mddittman Guest

    This sounds encouraging. :D

    I have a spare 7200 500GB external hard drive sitting around... but it only has USB2. Is the USB2 performance OK for this kind of application?

    So, the bottom line is that an 01v, with a MOTU 8pre, is fully capable of sending more than 8 tracks to a DAW, in my case a laptop loaded with appropriate software, which will then record them to hard disk, right? And I'm pretty sure that I will be able to route an prefader OMNI to the ADAT card, so my recordings shouldn't be affected by FOH adjustments.
  11. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    The original 01V is not really classed as a recording mixer for multitrack recording. It does not have direct channel outs via ADAT, nor does it have analog inserts on the input channels where you could tap off the signal immediately prior to the ADCs. Hence, for live recording, you are limited what you can bus and route to the omni outs and thence to analog inputs on an interface.

    If you got an 8pre, you could record 4 sub-mixes from the omni outs, plus another 4 raw mic channels. Tying up the omni outs assumes they are not in use for foldback, but then the audio quality of the omni outs on the 01V is really only suitable for monitoring anyway. However, the 8pre does not have pre-amp outputs, nor can you directly route the converted digital data to the ADAT out, so there is no easy way to get those mic channels back into the 01V.

    So it's bad news all round with the 01V/8pre combo, I'm afraid. However, all is not lost. An RME Fireface 800 would give you FireWire recording of 4 high-quality mic channels routeable via ADAT back into the 01V for adding to the mix, plus 4 line ins for handling your omni outs. The internal mix monitoring of the FF800 could be put to use generating a foldback mix if required.
  12. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    USB2 should be fast enough for a HD. Make sure the USB port on your computer is USB2. Most newer computers are, though there was a period where some computers had both USB2 and USB1. I would still encourage a split for the 8pre lines. It just keeps things cleaner.
  13. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    I'll bow to Boswell's knowledge but the manual actually states the ADAT (but not the omni outs) can be direct channel assigns (pg217). I would definitely agree the 01v is not a recording mixer but IF the ADATs can be individually assigned it should work.
  14. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    It's some time since I used an original 01V, and I remember the ADAT out not being particularly useful during live FOH mixing. However, you're quite correct about what it says in the manual, and it must have been the lack of pre-fader direct outs I was remembering.

    "The eight Option I/O digital outputs can be assigned to bus outs 1 through 4, aux sends 1 through 4, the left or right channels of the stereo output, or the post-fader direct outputs of input channels 1 through 16."

    So in this application, the ADAT could carry the 4 bus outs plus 4 direct outs of channels whose faders did not need adjustment during the performance.
  15. soapfloats

    soapfloats Well-Known Member

    Something else you might want to look at is a Presonus Firestudio 26/26.
    A little more than the MOTU.

    It's my main recording interface. However, I've been having live sessions at the church I record in lately, and the FS Control/Router is awesome. 8 mic pres, and ADAT enough for 24 channels. I set up a dry, flat mix for recording, and then another to send to the FOH. The recorded channels go to my computer via firewire, and the second mix (FOH) is routed via analog outs to the PA system (L/R). I'm pretty sure it becomes mono after that point.

    You can set up as many as 9 different mixes with the Control Center that accompanies the FS. (Recorded tracks, FOH mixer, Headphones, etc.) Each mix tab has all the faders and assignable outs. Changing Mix2 (FOH) does not affect Mix1 (recorded), and vice versa. Assign the recorded mix to the headphone out to check levels, and check your FOH levels via the mains. I don't end up sending much more than vocals or acoustic instruments to the FOH. Depends on the needs of the room. Very nice. Of course I am not also playing in the band at this time.

    Not sure if the MOTU has such an accompanying control software?
    If it does, run 8 channels into it, and ADAT the rest from your 01.
    Both the MOTU and FS have decent enough preamps for your purposes.
  16. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Well-Known Member

    You don't want any of that complicated computer crap for your application. What you really need is a Alesis HD 24 plugged into the PA Board direct outputs. That's all. Fast simple setup with a record button.

    KISS & tell
    Ms. Remy Ann David
  17. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    Sadly, the Yamaha 01v doesn't have any direct outs. But I want an HD24XR myself.
  18. mddittman

    mddittman Guest

    That Firestudio looks like quite the unit. Looks like I can get it for about the same/slightly more on Ebay.

    So you control much of the show from the laptop?

    Another thing; although I have the original 01v, I am not opposed to upgrading to the 01v96... IF it is worth it to me. Up until this point... for mixing a bar band from stage, remembering presets, 2 monitor mixes... I haven't needed anything else. Any benefit it upgrading the mixer from the recording aspect?

    The complicated computer crap doesn't bother me... I'm a software developer by day, we run our lights via dmx software on a laptop controlled via midi...
  19. soapfloats

    soapfloats Well-Known Member

    I use a desktop in my studio, but assuming your laptop has some decent specs, there should be no difference.

    But yeah, I do 2 mixes for the live shows, and have done as many as 3 (control room, 2 separate headphone mixes) while recording. All I have to do is click on the other tab, and I control that mix.

    Only problem is you can't add any effects in the FS console. It's just a level adjuster (faders, mute, solo, but no extras). However, adjusting the mixes doesn't affect what goes to tape - so you can solo the gui to check it, w/o affecting what goes into the DAW.
    Whatever plugs/effects you add (outboard/in-the-box) will be printed/recorded.
    In summary, I guess the best way to put it is that the Control Console is a MONITOR mix controller.

    It is possible to use the FS to send up to 8 analog outs, which could be sent to outboard effects or an individual mixer/PA channel. (Like if you need reverb for a vocal). Or you could ADAT out to the 01 if it allows.

    No experience with the newer (or older) 01. The FS is a good buy b/c of its down-the-road capabilities (up to 26 I/O).
  20. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    The real problem is that he still needs to get more than 8 lines into the DAW. That is why I suggested a split for the 8pre. Substituting the Presonus unit for the 8pre is not a bad idea but doesn't negate the need for a split.

    He has 10 analog sticks. He either needs a mixer or interface that has a minimum 10 AD converters or he has to cobble together the Yamaha 01v with something else. The weak link in all the possible scenarios is the Yamaha 01v. It just isn't very flexible even if it can be made to work. IMHO of course. YMMV.

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