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okay! set me straight on this studio hookup! please!

Discussion in 'Recording' started by jetoney, Jun 11, 2001.

  1. jetoney

    jetoney Guest

    I have a Mackie 1604vlzpro, 2 Maudio delta 1010's,
    2 RNC'S, 2 Behringer composers, Mindprint Envoice pre,
    ART Dual MP. ALL BALANCED except RNC's

    A) should I use the inserts to feed my compressors, then feed those to my 1010's(I use the comps to limit
    going to DAW) OR---
    B)should I use direct outs to DAW and use inserts as intended

    My inlination is to do the "A" config, and make my EQ choices later(I don't Eq going in--only reason I can see for direct outs) However,

    If I do use the inserts going to comps then to DAW,
    Do I use unbalanced cables or can I use balanced
    cables.

    Signal path would be Balanced 1/4 at insert(first click)=to xlr or 1/4 on behringer==behringer xlr or 1/4==to 1/4 on delta 1010(+4 or -10).

    Now the complicated part A) the RNC's are unbalaced,
    and I am not sure if I can run a balanced line from the inserts to a balanecd piece of gear and back to 1010's and finally with all this mix-matched bal-
    unbal stuff going on should I just run unbalanced and keep runs short
    Balanced power is in my future, but for now HELP!

    Many thanks in advance to everybody who can shed light on this subject(I have read way to much conflicting material on this subject)

    JT
     
  2. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    jetoney, welcome aboard!

    This is obviously your first time here. No need to post the same thread in three different forums. I deleted your other two. All the moderators jump around here so please pick one forum that is appropriate for that question, one post will do the trick. ;)

    regards,
     
  3. jetoney

    jetoney Guest

    sorry about that!
    I'll try and be patient

    I am so tired of trying to decide from what I have been told, and what I have read, that
    I just need some definitive answers on this unbalanced/balanced thing, so I can quit chasing my tail, and get down to business.

    Thanks again,
    JT
     
  4. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    no problem, someone will come to your rescue :cool:
     
  5. anonymous

    anonymous Guests

    Chris, you should probably have left it or set it up in "Harvey's forum"...seems like a better place for it. Maybe you might want to move it there...or delete this and tell me to shut the ^#$% up. Either is fine.
     
  6. toney

    toney Guest

    Harvey? anyone? anyone?
     
  7. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    okay jetoney, bare with us hehe, The energy level is happening this week. Hang tough (I hope)

    audiokid :cool:
     
  8. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    Originally posted by jetoney:
    A) should I use the inserts to feed my compressors, then feed those to my 1010's(I use the comps to limit going to DAW) OR---
    B)should I use direct outs to DAW and use inserts as intended
    What do you mean by "as intended"? It sounds like you're making assumptions about what you're "supposed" to do with your gear. Assumptions can be dangerous things.

    If I do use the inserts going to comps then to DAW, Do I use unbalanced cables or can I use balanced cables.
    On all the pieces of gear you mentioned, you can use either unbalanced or balanced connections - except the RNC, and the Makie inserts which are unbalanced only.

    Signal path would be Balanced 1/4 at insert(first click)
    The only difference between the first click and the second click, in this case, is that the second click breaks the connection to the return side. In other words, when an unbalanced (TS) 1/4" is fully inserted, the signal will be going out as usual, but the fader on the channel will be silent. Inserting to the first click will send the same signal out, but will not break the connection to the fader, eq, etc.

    Now the complicated part A) the RNC's are unbalaced, and I am not sure if I can run a balanced line from the inserts
    There are no balanced lines from the inserts. The inserts are strictly UNbalanced.

    to a balanecd piece of gear and back to 1010's and finally with all this mix-matched bal-unbal stuff going on should I just run unbalanced and keep runs short.
    The i/o's that are unbalanced will not magically become balanced just because you connect them to balanced i/o's at the other end. When connecting 2 units that have balanced connections, use balanced. When connecting one balanced and one unbalanced, use unbalanced.

    Makee insert = unbalanced. Use unbalanced coming out of the Makee insert into anything else.

    RNC = unbalanced. Use unbalanced coming out of the RNC into anything else.

    M-Audio 1010 = balanced or unbalanced, automatically detecting what signal is fed into it.

    Behringer composer = balanced. Use balanced from Behringer into the 1010.

    Mindprint Envoice = balanced. Use balanced from Envoice into the 1010.

    ART Dual MP = balanced. Use balanced from ART into the 1010.

    Yes, you should keep your unbalanced runs shorter than 5000 feet, or whatever length you start to notice a difference, whichever comes first.

    Many thanks in advance to everybody who can shed light on this subject(I have read way to much conflicting material on this subject)
    Is it possible that it is not the material that conflicts, but your understanding of it? I suggest learning a bit more about the difference between balanced and unbalanced signals, and how they both work. The advice you've been given might become a little clearer to you then.
     
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Man Ang, that must have taken awhile. You should get paid for that lol!

    :cool:
     
  10. jetoney

    jetoney Guest

    Ang1970,

    perhaps I should explain a little,

    I am well aware that the insert points are,
    and always will be, unbalanced at the first click- also I know that signal will be interupted going in the whole way. I also know that the RNC is unbalanced in and out,
    except the nice little TRS trick that can be pulled with one TRS cable. The fact that you said to wire things balanced & ubalanced in the same set-up confuses me;with what I have read and been told.

    something like this:
    )If you are running things balanced & unbalanced in your system, stay unbalanced
    all the way because you won't be able to
    take advantage of an all balanced system

    If this is true, then there would be no advantage to go unbal from mackie inserts-to composer
    then bal from comp to 1010? or would there?

    MY question should have been:
    should I run balanced cables wherever possible in my system, even though half my connects are unbalanced? If so-what advantage does this have over just running unbalanced through out?

    Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your detailed response, but I just wanted to know.
    None of this has stopped me from working,and
    it sounds fine.

    This line of mine made no sense, even to me:
    "Now the complicated part A) the RNC's are unbalaced, and I am not sure if I can run a balanced line from the inserts"

    what I meant to say was:
    Can I run a balanced line from the insert
    to the 1010? seeing as how a TRS cable sends
    from tip, and I know the insert is unbalanced, but would it make any diff at the 1010's TRS input?
    even though it comes from
    an unbalnced out,OR am I right in assuming this connection would not benefit from balanced cable.

    Hopefully this clears things up a little
    I was in the middle of a session when this very question was put to me, kinda like
    a "How did we get here" or " I wonder if there is a GOD" question, it took me off- guard because I could not come up with a worthwhile response other than Balanced=
    Balanced-->unbalanced=unbalanced OR
    I don't "F"ing know.
    Anyway, If someone can clarify,great
    If not, so be it!
    JT
     
  11. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    Ah, now we're getting somewhere...
    Originally posted by jetoney:
    The fact that you said to wire things balanced & ubalanced in the same set-up confuses me;with what I have read and been told.
    something like this:
    )If you are running things balanced & unbalanced in your system, stay unbalanced
    all the way because you won't be able to
    take advantage of an all balanced system
    This is probably referring to the use of balanced power, and is a complicated issue. I defer to those more qualified than myself to explain how that works.

    A single balanced connection within an otherwise unbalanced studio will still reap the benefits of a balanced connection.

    If this is true, then there would be no advantage to go unbal from mackie inserts-to composer then bal from comp to 1010? or would there?
    The main advantage here is that you skip other components of the Makee (EQ, fader, output amps, caps, resistors, more metal, etc.), components which may be more detrimental to the signal than the use of an unbalanced connection. You also have the ability to mute, pan, EQ and mix your inputs while you record without affecting levels going to tape.

    MY question should have been:
    should I run balanced cables wherever possible in my system, even though half my connects are unbalanced? If so-what advantage does this have over just running unbalanced through out?
    note... Find and insert url's for explanation of balanced and unbalanced... Didn't we already have a thread about this? Harvey?

    Can I run a balanced line from the insert to the 1010?
    Yes. The 1010 will see that the signal is unbalanced and compensate accordingly (+6db for the missing minus lead).

    would it make any diff at the 1010's TRS input? even though it comes from
    an unbalnced out
    No. To the 1010, a balanced cable with a grounded minus lead will look the same as an unbalanced cable.

    OR am I right in assuming this connection would not benefit from balanced cable.
    Correct. There will be no benefit gained from using a 3 conductor cable to run an unbalanced signal. Nothing lost either. Just an extra bit of wire not doing much of anything.
     
  12. jetoney

    jetoney Guest

    Ang1970,

    Thanks for the quick response!
    You rock, I'm clear!
    On with the show!

    I have been doing a little more research(of the way to technical nature)and I understand!
    Now if you have any tips on soldering, that
    would be great; as I am about to make some cables on my own. Someone gave me about
    200ft of Canare l-4E6S(I believe this is 4 conductor,or quad(4 leads and a ground-wrapped in the cable), and I would like to
    make some quality runs for the rig.

    Thanks again,
    JT
     
  13. simonsez

    simonsez Guest

    wow,
    no kidding....Ang surely Rocks!!
    Hats off to Ang for having the Knowledge, Patience, and Articulation to answer that question the way he did.
    nice...
    simonsez
     
  14. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    Originally posted by jetoney:
    Someone gave me about 200ft of Canare l-4E6S(I believe this is 4 conductor,or quad(4 leads and a ground-wrapped in the cable)
    Whoa, lucky you! Do people just give you stuff a lot? Maybe I should be hangin with ya.. hehe

    Solder tips for star quad... start by stripping the outer insulation. Leave enough insulation for the housing's strain relief to grab, and not stuff too much extra lead when the whole thing is together. So this will partially depend on what you use to terminate... connector type, brand, etc. Clean up any strings or hairs or crap, snip anything that ain't wire or leads.

    Trim the leads and ground to comfortable lengths. (eg. for cheap switchcraft TRS 1/4", shorten ground to 1", - to 2", + to 2.5".)

    Next strip 1/4" off the leads. Twist the whites together, twist the blues together. Tin em both (apply a little bit of solder). Tin the ground.

    Now you're ready to solder the plug on...

    Or are you?

    DON'T FORGET TO PUT THE HOUSING ON THE CABLE FIRST!!!

    There's nothing more aggravating than de-soldering 10 plugs you just did because you forgot the housings.

    Slide housings and any extra insulators they came with.

    Tin the terminals on the plugs.

    Touch the correct lead to the correct terminal, add heat, and the solder that you used to tin each tip will fuse together easily.

    This method will enable you to solder each connection without holding the iron to the leads or terminals too long and melting insulation or mounting material.
     
  15. toney

    toney Guest

    Ang1970,
    What I can I say!
    Thanks for your wisdom and patience.
    JT
     

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