Once Again A Speaker Question...

Discussion in 'Mastering' started by axel, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. axel

    axel Guest

    hi guys, i have a question regarding a "B" setup of monitors for my studio...

    ok this has been discussed a hundred times, and i am one of those who always say use your own ears, and what suits you, but my problem is that since i have moved into a different country the possibility of auditioning is very restricted, i do have to go to austria, vienna for that, so i have to try to narrow down my choice in order to go to the right suppliers, as it costs me a day travling just for that purpose...

    i use a set of genelecs 8050s as my "a" monitoring, but would like to get a smaller "home hifi pair" for the "b" setup, i post here as i know that john for example is a big fan of the diamond 8.2s.
    so there must be something about them... :)), i knever heard them myself, so no clue!

    the question is has anyone heard the B&W 600 series (i know that a few mastering guys use the top end B&Ws, but i have no clue how the smaller speakers compare...), like DM601 or DM602 or the wharfedale diamond 9.2s ?? and with what amp recommend powering them...

    i am just curious about your opinions, then i will have a listen to them IF possible for me, before purchasing.

    thanks for any imput.

  2. axel

    axel Guest

    i forgot to add that i am aware of bryston, pergaux and the like, but i want to stay in a "budget" so i wonder if someone knows a good combination which doesn't cost an arm and a leg, i did previously mainly electronic dance stuff, that's why i am very happy with the genelecs, but i get more and more requests for band stuff, songwriting... lately and need to mix more for radios and domestic home stereos rather then for hughe PAs...

  3. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    well I just went through the whole buying a new amp thing for my setup and it's really a big difference. I tried about 5 different amps and ended up going with a small company out of canada called simaudio. The amp is not a nice sounding amp, in fact it's pretty ruthless on material. If you skimp on the amp, you'll just end up buying another sooner than you think. I spend as much time choosing the amp as I do the speakers.
  4. Massive Mastering

    Massive Mastering Well-Known Member

    If it helps - I had a set of 602's for a short time (long story)... Excellent, excellent, small speaker. With a decent amp, you can hardly go wrong.

    They're "real world" enough to test mixes on (hell, I mixed on them several times as an "a" set) and nice enough to actually enjoy listening to - Which is a bonus in my book.

    If there's a fault in them, it's the highs - They sound *too* good sometimes... A little "creamy" and smooth. Not in a bad way, mind you... But perhaps not "picky" enough for super-critical decisions in the ultra-highs.
  5. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    I agree with John and Michael. With John on the "too good" syndrome, the more 'sensitive to change' a loudspeaker is, if accurate to begin with, the easier it is to find the 'totally killer mix' sweet spot. NS10's were exceptional at this due to "if they sound bad, your mix is not yet up to par" I am not saying the ns10 is the was all to end all monitor, I am saying that very small mix changes make a very noticable difference with them. I tend to go with professional loudspeakers for mixdown purposes, those which have been used as monitors over the years and those that are being used universally now. As the loudspeakers that are used in the studio shift to different "quality" so does the gambit of music reproduction. Give me an old set of JBL 4311's and I will show you a balanced mix. My critiera for a quality set of loudspeakers are ones which have very flat powerband response and ones that are highly sensitive to small changes. Even the sad old Alesis monitor ones were pretty good here.

    Dynaudios are being used consistantly and I would see what is offered in your price range.

    As far as Michaels post, the same thinking applies. I tried mixing on a pair of SET (Single ended triode) Vacuum tube amplifiers and the colorization simply "glossed over" the critical midrange spectrum. It sounded "good" even when you were a good 3dB off in critical balancing. Michaels "ruthlessness" in the amplifier is a good goal. Hafler amplifiers were solid performers as are most quality solid state amplifiers..just stay away from "high end hi fi" consumer audio if you can. This $*^t is made to sound great on everything and will outright lie when it comes to critical mix decisions. Most mid priced (400 to 900) dollar professional amplifiers made for professional studio use will fit the bill. I would consider a used Yamaha power amplifier if I needed a quick backup.

    Bill Roberts
  6. axel

    axel Guest

    superb, thanks a lot for the input guys :D

    the issue is that i can audition the dm602's here, there is one shop who does B&W, but they are only carry hi fi amps like rotel and marantz, so i am stucked with that for the auditioning, i know that most hi fi gear is not really up for the job, but on the otherhand i have heard from a few people that NAD is ok (the best mixer i know is using one very old NAD with very old tannoys) but often the "mixture" of a certain amp with a certain speaker makes it a deal...

    it's really difficult in my situation, as there is only one pro gear provider in the whole country, which sells M-audio, some digi stuff and behringer that's as far as it goes...

    john with which type of amp did you used the dm602s ??

    or anyone else who can chime in ??

    thanks for the help
  7. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    The Rotel amplifiers are pretty good overall. The one I reviewed a few years back (although it was a shade hollow in the lower mids) was a formidable amplifier for the price range. If they still perform as they used to, they should not seriously hamper your auditioning experience. It was not as "high fi-ish" as some I have heard.

  8. axel

    axel Guest

    thanks a lot!!!

    i am really in a kind of trouble about that, as i did, had to make all my latest purchases out of past experience or knowledge, because here in slovakia is basically no hi end or pro supply at all.

    mailorder is the only way, or austria which gives me certain restrictions as well... (specially auditioning :-( )

    i would love to for example to compare the dm602s to the diamond 8.2s in a back to back audition, but it's not possible for me here, so i really have to rely and trust your opinion, which i do!! (i basically don't have any other posibility, here)
    there is no dealer who trades wharfedale here at all :-(

    so i am really thankfull for any detailed further info / input on this.

    john, maybe you can give me an idea how the two compare in your opinion...

    i actually like the fact that you said that the dm602s are kinda sweet in the highs, as the genelecs are rather a bit to loud and hard in that range, but i use Genelecs for so long that i got used to them... and know how to handle it.

    thanks again for all the valueble info and help, :D

  9. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Those two loudspeakers I have not heard in a side by side, so any opinion I give about them is pure conjecture and not accurate.

    I will say that both companies have good reputations and if the past does any justice to this conversation, warfdales are normally more polite and Bowers are normally more analytical..so I would, from your perspective lean toward the B&W's based on my past experience with the two companies.

    Of course (very very important to consider) name brands do not necessatate sonic signature. Every company has had a "not so good" product from time to time.

    Remember, you can taylor and voice any loudspeaker using room acoustic treatments..so anything you get can be 'made to work'.

    I wish I could give more solid info on your choices.
  10. iznogood

    iznogood Guest

    " i know that most hi fi gear is not really up for the job,"

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :-?
  11. Massive Mastering

    Massive Mastering Well-Known Member

    Believe it or not, when I first had the 602's, I put ONE of them up (one 602 / one 8.2) and ran some tunage through them. They sounded surprisingly similar (which blew my mind) so I ran pink through them and threw it in mono. There was no freaky smeared phase goofiness or anything as I would have expected. Mono pretty much just leaned to the 602 slightly. On the serious stuff, the 602 sounded slightly "bigger" (go figure).

    Amp... It was either a Bryston 2BLP or a "vintage" Kenwood HiFi amp which I believe I was using at the time.
  12. axel

    axel Guest

    Thanks for all the input!

  13. Ammitsboel

    Ammitsboel Member

    How bad is it? can you stand a bad sounding amp in the long run?

    I tend to chose an amp upon the ability to reveal as close to the whole spectrum of parameters as possible. This often results in an amp that is able to truthfully reproduce the contrasts between extremely good and extremely bad. If the amp sound bad in specific areas it's only a matter of time before I get in a bad mood and see now meaning in my work.

    Why is it that engineers often feel safe with a bad sounding amp instead of going for what could truly be the best for them? I'm not saying this is what you did Michael but it sounds little like it in your post.

    Axel, I think the best thing to do is to educate yourself by listening to as many amps as possible to form your opinions on what's good and what's bad in amplification. My experience on just choosing an amp from advice will lead to many time consuming speculations about if the amp is really is up to the job or not. If you have the basic experience you will chose better and be more secure about it.

    Maybe I could tell you exactly what amp you need right now, but you might not accept it for what it is yet.
    Sorry if I sound a little arrogant... it is true though.

    Best Regards
  14. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    I didn't say it was a bad sounding amp, just not a nice sounding amp. it wouldn't be an amp I would choose to put in my home to listen and enjoy all kinds of music because it reveals how horrible things can be. It always amazes me how different an amp can make a set of monitors sound. My old amp "played" much better but the new amp is more accurate.
  15. TrilliumSound

    TrilliumSound Active Member

    Same here. I have listen to several amps in the past 10 years and some I am shocked over other brands. It is also true for me that you need to find the right couple (amp + monitors). On my side, 2 Bryston 3B(each in in mono) with vintage modified 3828's Tannoys in custom box makes a terrific duo. But with some Sugden, Rotel, Krell and yes Mike, Simaudio did not cut it.. to my taste. But I have heard some Simaudio's with B&W's (matrix) that sounded terrific. "Classe" amps sounded great also on B&W 802's as well as Hi end Proac and Cabasse to my taste.

  16. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    The Classe's sounded pretty good but a little polished to me on my 802's. the new Jeff Roland monoblocks sounded very good, for $7,000. When I first brought in the Simaudio amp, the Moon series for those interested, I thought it was very stark sounding compared to the others. super fast on the transients and very high damping compared to others. I didn't initially like the amp the first day I listened to it, but it was over a weekend so I left it up and played around a bit with it. By the 3rd day, it either broke in or I got used to it. What caught my attention with this amp, is that I was hearing certain things that were not as apparent in some other nice amps. Anyway, I've had the amp for about a month now, and I like the results.
  17. axel

    axel Guest

    thanks for all the input again!!

    yeah guys that's my trouble, here, i am very aware of that "magic match" or in other words a certain amp monitor combination can be awsome and others suck, i just have the trouble of not much choice of auditioning here as there is basically no high end / pro supply in this country... as i mentioned already!

    i have a lot of experience in terms of PAs (lab gruppen and le accustics!! match made in heaven for example) i did years ago a lot of live work, but in studio monitoring i usualy always used active systems such as dynos mostly genelecs and ns10s driven by bryston amps, sometimes KRK as i do work a lot around in hire facilities...

    but i will see what i can do as i really like to have an alltogether different system to my genies and i now how important the listening process is, as i never was someone who relied on tech specs... so it will probably remain a kind of gambling to choose the right stuff, unless i find the time (most probably i have to!) to travel to austria for a propper auditioning i guess it will be worth it!

    thanks anyway for all the info...

  18. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    I would say that if you can arrange to audition setups, it's worth it. it's a lot cheaper to spend a few hundred bucks on an airline ticket than to spend a few thousand on a setup that you don't like.

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