PA question...

Discussion in 'Location Recording' started by Kapt.Krunch, Apr 20, 2009.

  1. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    In June, we'll be playing an outdoor party of 400-500 people. I'm trying to piece together a system with various bandmembers' stuff that is punchy enough to sound clean playing blues and bluesy-rock. It doesn't have to be ear-bleeding loud, but I want it to be good-sounding. Bass guitar amped on stage and run direct, everything else (guitars, drums) mic'ed.

    Will be running a Mackie CR1604 mackie.com/pdf/archive/cr1604_om.pdf with an XLR10 expander for 16 XLR channels.

    That will go through EQ and compressor to input of crossover. The mid/hi will go the amplifier inputs of a Mackie 808S powered mixer. (600W/600W)mackie.com/pdf/ppm_om.pdf
    According to specs, max output on 1604 matches up with power amp max input of 808, so that should be OK.

    The 808 will run two pairs of speakers. Yamaha C115V yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/speakers/c112v_en_om_c0.pdf , and JBL TR125 jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=305&doctype=3

    Low sum mono from the crossover will go to Crown CE2000 amp. (~1900W bridged to mono 4 ohms). crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/125645.pdf

    Here's what I am wondering. We have a Peavey RBS1 sub cab with Peavey (2) 1505-8 15" Black Widows. peavey.com/assets/literature/manuals/80300996.pdf

    We also have a pair of home-built scoop cabs that a friend and I built years ago with Eminence Delta Pro 15's.
    eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=DELTA PRO-15A&speaker_size=15&SUB_CAT_ID=1

    Cab design: dancetech.com/article.cfm?threadid=181&lang=0 These cabs are baltic birch, biscuited, screwed glued and caulked...so they are well-built and tight.

    I'm thinking the Peavey cab won't quite cut it. The home-built cabs may be OK with the Eminences. We have gotten them fairly loud before, and thumping. What I'm wondering is would it perhaps be better to stick the Peavey speakers in the home-built cabs? Definitely swap? Don't know? Don't bother...use the Eminences?

    We COULD add more amps and speakers, but I'm trying to keep from getting it out of hand and overcomplicated.

    What might YOU do, and why? Does it sound like we can get this to sound reasonably good for that many outdoors? This will actually be our first gig, so we'd kind of like to sound fairly good.

    Anyone? :?

    Thanks,

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  2. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    Your system is probably not going to cut it for a live gig. When you put a system outdoors, the sound disappears into thin air. It takes a lot of power and speaker cone area to do an outdoors gig. You don't seem to have that...
    As far as the scoops are concerned, I wouldn't bother swapping around the drivers. Hartley Peavey and the Gault family (Eminence) have had long-standing agreements to make speakers together (Peavey casts the frames for Eminence). You also get into the various issues of matching the driver to the cab, and scoops are not known for their LF response.
    Frankly, I'd recommend checking out the local rental companies in your area. Don't know what's in your area, or your budget, but still...
     
  3. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

    This won't fix your amp/speaker issues but a nice feature of that Mackie 808 is that you can run it's XLR section (summed of course) out via 1/4" into two channels of the CR1604. Then the CR1604 still can come back in to the 808 via the 1/4" amp returns.

    Like I said, it doesn't really address your amp rack situation but can give you some different XLR options/monitor options.
     
  4. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    We really cannot say what will work outdoors because we do not know if there will in fact be a crowd.

    It also depends on the geography of the area. If these guys are in a valley they could be in a natural amphitheater situation. I have used a pair of old Peavey SP2's with 118 subs outdoors in said situation and it was plenty.

    As to the Peavey drivers in scoops...NO! Don't do it without knowing the T/S parameters and how that relates to your box.
     
  5. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    OK. Thanks. Actually, it's backed against a thick forest with a natural canopy over the stage, and it does slope uphill from there, so the sound will project out a bit. They didn't have much more than that last year when another band played. We'll also have four monitors on stage.

    Maybe we'll just throw another amp on, and also use the Peavey for a bit extra thump. We do actually have a couple more amps and 15/horn speakers we could run, if we had to, but I was just trying to get by with fewer things. The situation is that we will actually be the unpaid warm-up band. The guy already previously hired another band to start later, and I asked if he would mind if we came out for free. Nobody has heard us...we figured it would be good exposure in front of a lot of people. We have about 35 tunes down pretty well (more being worked out), so we should be able to do a couple hours, picking our best 20 or so. Unfortunately, the main band won't set up until about 8 pm, or so, to start at 9. So, we have to take a PA, start about 4-6 pm, and be ready to tear our stuff down so thedy can set up. (Party actually starts at 4 pm.) So, not getting paid (unless they start throwing money at us) puts a crimp in the PA rental idea.

    "...a nice feature of that Mackie 808 is that you can run it's XLR section (summed of course) out via 1/4" into two channels of the CR1604.."

    Don't think we'll really need that. The 1604 has 16 XLR's with the XLR10 expander. That's 4 drum, bass direct, 3 guitar amp mics, 4 vocal, and two acoustic guitars direct, which leaves two channels left for plugging a CD in for initial checking of the system. But, thanks. That may come in handy knowing sometime.

    Anyway, thanks again.

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  6. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Well-Known Member

    I'd be worried that you don't have enough power. If there are other amps available, I'd be rounding them up. Blues-rock should have nice rich bass, so if you can load up and power all 4 sub cabinets, I think you'll be happier. The CE2000 at 4 ohms puts out 1320watts 660w / ch @ 4 ohms. If you do end up running all 4 subs, I'd rather scrounge another amp than run at 2 ohms. (The PV subs are 4 ohms each = 2 ohms paralleled together) Hooking another amp to the crossover isn't going to be any more complicated than rigging in the Mackie powered head.

    The Mackie 808S is only 450w / ch @ 4 ohms. (which is the impedance you'll have when doubling up the JBL or Yamaha cabinets) I think 450watts is a little optimistic on Mackie's part and even if it were truly 450w, I think that's going to be pretty light for the great outdoors. It might be OK, since you're not looking to be crazy loud.

    If I just had 450w for FOH, I'd probably just be mixing vocals and let most of the instruments fend for themselves. I'd consider using the PA to enhance the kick and bass guitar and little else.

    You're going to need monitors too, you might prefer to use the Mackie 808 for the monitors.


    Just passing through - I'll check back later.
     
  7. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Whats the paid band using? If its substantial they'll be into their setup a lot earlier than an hour before showtime. If there is a hired company for the PA for them, then do your self a favor and talk to their boss directly. Find out their setup time and offer yourselves up as a soundcheck band Do an hour of your stuff....kick ass and make the headliners work for a change.
     
  8. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

    You guys all bring up good points. What I need to do is contact the guy who is throwing the thing to contact the other band and work this out ahead of time. We need to know when we'll need to start tearing down, if nothing else. If we have to use what we've got, then that's what we have to do. Maybe they'll set up earlier, and have enough PA that we won't have to worry about it, and they'll let us use it. Maybe they'll wish they had a bit more, and want to throw everything we've all got at it by combining it all.

    Best thing to do is to communicate so there are no conflicts. I was wanting to talk to him, anyway, to see exactly how much power is going to be available, and determine how to safely distribute it.

    Thanks guys,

    Kapt.Krunch
     
  9. Codemonkey

    Codemonkey Well-Known Member

    Sheet wrote:
    "...with 118 subs outdoors in said situation and it was plenty."

    Being ignorant of the fact that's a model number, I am very worried that anyone could even consider over 100 subs to be insufficient.
     

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