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Phasing Problems

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Murdock, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. Murdock

    Murdock Guest

    Hi!

    How you resolve the phasing problems?

    Regards
     
  2. gilligan204

    gilligan204 Guest

    You should probally elborate, what exacltly is the example of the phasing.
     

  3. MURDOCK!? YOU QUIT THIS JIBBER-JABBER AND GET IN THAT DISGUISE LIKE HANNIBAL SAID TO!


    I PITY THE FOOL...
     
  4. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Guest

    Phasing problems are a multi-applicable event.

    First
    you need to make sure your speakers not only are phased together but are also correctly polarized. You want the cones to push out when the bass drum hits, not suck in.

    Second
    Cardioid microphones, placed too close together will create phasing problems, in and by it self.

    Third
    Bad microphone cables with XLR connectors improperly wired (pin 2 should always be hot) are frequent culprits.

    Fourth
    Most sound cards include a problem known as latency which is what you might be hearing?

    Fifth
    TheRealShotgun seems to of offered the most plausible solution!

    Sixth
    It could be the alcohol or drugs? All of which are very necessary for recording!
     
  5. christian231

    christian231 Guest

    That was funny.. I guess no one got the A-Team reference.!! :wink:
     
  6. Murdock

    Murdock Guest

    Hi!

    Thank's RemyRad; the six is true but not for all...

    How can i be sure that my monitors are phased and correctly polarized?

    The latency of the sound card is 2 ms...

    What a hell TheRealShotgun said? Translate... in english, please...

    My concern is mics... vocals and some acoustic guitars....

    Regards
     
  7. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Guest

    One of the ways to tell if your speakers are phased correctly, is to take a mono sound source. Take one speaker and put it up to the face of the other speaker. Leave a couple of inches of space. If the sound all but disappears, they are out of phase. If the sound level does not go down, they are in phase. Basically, if you have wired the speakers correctly, i.e. red to positive and black to negative both on the back of the speakers and identically to the amplifier, you're probably all right.

    Now for polarity. Polarity is a bit trickier. You may have your speakers connected properly to your amplifier but amplifier manufacturers and Speaker manufacturers may not necessarily follow an established standard. If the polarity is reversed and you are playing something with a reasonable beat, the sound will certainly have a punchy quality. If the polarity is reversed, it may not sound very punchy but rather kind of "sucky" and lacking definition. Do not connect a battery or DC source to the speaker as you can damage the voice coil. It's all a listening thing. I went through this same scenario with a very highly respected console manufacturer, where in their own studio they had a pair of UREI 813 time aligned monitors and a Bryston 4B amplifier. Nothing quite sounded right. I reversed the polarity and everything sprang to life. A lot of head scratching went on as they believe everything was connected properly. It was but obviously not. Don't you love this stuff?

    A 2 ms latency can make things sound truly dreadful, especially if the input signal and the output signal are combined while monitoring. Many sound card manufacturers offer a " no latency" feature or low latency feature which still doesn't really cut it. Hopefully on playback, barring the microphone distance dilemma, things may sound better on playback?

    However.....If you are trying to record an acoustic guitar and at the same time a vocal, assuming you are using 2 microphones on the guitar and a single one on the vocal, the distance between the vocal microphone on the guitar microphones, generally will cause some phasing problems. There's not enough distance between the placement of guitar microphones to the vocal microphone. Not knowing what kind of microphones you're using, I may suggest using your higher-quality microphones on the guitar and something like an SM58 for the vocal. It has a tight pattern and not quite as broad a response as a condenser microphone. This may actually help your situation. People just don't quite realize how good an SM58 can be. (Michael Jackson was recorded with an SM 7 which is basically a nicer version and slightly larger diaphragm than the SM58)

    With respect to your question regarding "TheRealShotgun", I think it had something to do with my 6th diagnosis? He is obviously a skilled engineer/producer and has probably consumed much of those accoutrements to make him the engineer/producer he is today?
     
  8. McCheese

    McCheese Well-Known Member

    :watches planes fly over heads:

    Um yeah.

    Everyone needs to own an IBP.

    And learn where the track mute buttons are.

    "The Jazz is all the twinkies you can eat, and Woody Woodpecker cartoons twenty-four hours a day."
     

  9. I second that emotion.
     
  10. tweeksound

    tweeksound Guest

    You can also flip the phase of one of the factors.
     
  11. tweeksound

    tweeksound Guest

    Remember the 3 to 1 rule. When using 2 mics to record the same source always have 1 mic at least 3 times further away than the other from the source.
     
  12. dwoz

    dwoz Guest

    I just tell the singer to stop singing out of his sinuses.



    dwoz
     
  13. Hilarious A-Team reference!
     
  14. Reggie

    Reggie Well-Known Member


    Especially when using the mics in XY or ORTF or......or wait a sec...

    Didn't we just go over this?
     
  15. KTek

    KTek Guest

    murdok, i'm sure you understand what phasing is and all,,, you asked "how to resolve it." if you are stuck with a recording of something that had more than one signal/mic, and when you play them together they have phasing issues,, the reason is usually because 1. the transients should be perfectly parralel when they are just slighty off, or 2 they should be significantly apart from the spacing of the mic to give accent,,, but somehow it's still phasing.

    here's what i do,, ( i use logic pro, but you can do this with anything)

    IF IT'S A SLIGHTLY OFF PHASE MIX PROBLEM:

    -set the 2 tracks next to eachother in your mix where they are naturally.

    -zoom in AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN to where you can see the actual single line of each signal.

    -move them to be parallel with one another.

    IF IT'S A DISTANCE MIC MIX PROBLEM:

    -i would suggest trying to figure out "how far away you really wanted the accent mic to sound"

    -if it's closer, move the audio back a bit, or you want it further, move it to be later.

    -i usually just find that "distance" and move it back and forth just the smallest increment at a time, till i find that perfect blend.



    i deal with this all the time when i record, because i like to use one DI, one 57, and one room condensor for each guitar/bass in a song. this gives me options/lots of beef!!!!/life to the sound

    hope that helped!
     
  16. wayne

    wayne Guest

    Well, that's about half of it anyway, but kind of like having half' a seat belt.. :?
    :roll:
    Wayne
     
  17. tweeksound

    tweeksound Guest

    Ya, I misworded myself. Sorry.
    not really good at putting things into words, just applying them
    you know?

    Here's a good description.
    http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip6.htm

    Pretty much just about keepin the out of phase pickup from other mics at a minimum by spacing the mics out in respect to the source signal strenght as opposed to the distant mic signal streght of the same source.
     
  18. wayne

    wayne Guest

    I hear ya'. It's never easy to cover something like that in a quickie'. :) One important distinction that would be good to touch on is applying that one to multiple mics/multiple sources where it can get us in the ballpark. It's on 'one source' where it can fall completely apart -as soon as you turn the second one up to hear it if you get my meaning. :cool:
    Wayne
     
  19. wayne

    wayne Guest

    Yikes. There's three pages of this ....stuff, right below.
    :? Oops.
     

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