PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Mastering' started by jtron, May 25, 2005.

  1. jtron

    jtron Guest

    I am about to ftp my wav files to be mastered. Should I do this?
    I am concerned about audio loss, or anything that may compromise
    the music. Should I worry.
    Please help
    thank you.
     
  2. lucidwaves

    lucidwaves Guest

    No loss of audio integrity when transfering files via ftp. Very very common method of transfer to a mastering engineer.
     
  3. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    Don't worry, it's extremely reliable way to transfer files. It's got a builtin error checker thingamabob.
     
  4. Zilla

    Zilla Active Member

    A contrasting opinion...

    It has been our experience that audio files delivered via the internet (ftp, iChat, iDisc, etc) has consistently sounded inferior to the same files delivered on physical media.

    Did the data content become corrupted?: NO.
    Is the data bit for bit accurate?: YES.
    Does it pass the so-called "polarity test"?: YES.
    So then it should sound the same: IT DOESN'T.
    How can that be?: I DON'T KNOW.

    We have not discovered the technical reason for this un-logical discrepancy. What we do know is what our ears have told us in many, many blind listening tests. Only once has the electronically delivered files sound equal to the physical media. Only once! Call it voodoo if you like, but apparently there is more to audio data playback than just bit content.

    My advise (from best to worst):
    1. Analog tape (only if you are experienced and have an excellent working deck)
    2. Print (write) your mixes directly to a hard drive which can be sent to your ME and played from directly.
    3. Transfer your data to a data CD/DVD-r.
    4. Use a DAT, Masterlink, or the like.
    5. FTP/Internet.

    Things keep changing and hopefully improving. The internet will someday be able to move audio with the same losses as physical media. Then we will have quality as well as convenience.
     
  5. TrilliumSound

    TrilliumSound Active Member

    Hi,

    I'd be curious to hear the files that you have compared because like you said it is illogical...but not impossible. I am very sceptical about this if everything has been done correctly ie, data storage representations, coding from different type of systems. You should take a look at: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc959/3_DataTransfer.html , it gives a pretty good picture about this and further more as well. I have done so many files transfered via internet (FTP) and never heard any degradation. Maybe it would be worthed to do a null test with these ?

    Regards,

    Richard
     
  6. Zilla

    Zilla Active Member

    That is what I meant by "polarity test". I am not arguing that the data content is compromised. In fact, I have run a battery of diagnostic tests for data parity/corruption. In almost all cases the data integrity has proven to been sound. The cause for the internet's current inferior sound must be something else.

    Have you actually compared the "ftp" file to an original? Try this: Send an audio file to an ftp site. Retrieve it and import it into your DAW along with the original file. Now A/B them in real time. Can you hear a difference?

    We have repeatably been able to distinguish the original from the copy with many engineers and clients. When a number of humans can accurately choose them blind, 19 out of 20 times, nobody is fooling themselves! Admittedly the differences are slight. An FTP transmitted file will not be the end of the world. But better IS better, so I advise our clients against it when practical.
     
  7. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    I have personally never experienced this. What i have found is that SD2 files get their headers stripped if it is uploaded as the wrong format. I guess something could be causing some timing errors like jitter or something like that. If there is a difference, it's so little that it doesn't concern me any more than if they printed the files on a cheap cdr. I've bounced stuff back and forth and never noticed anything different from the original.
     
  8. Massive Mastering

    Massive Mastering Well-Known Member

    I've done polarity tests with so many things...

    Disc brands -
    Writing Speeds -
    WAV to AIF and back -
    FTP -
    Copy n' Paste -

    Always the same result...

    Zero.
     
  9. JerryTubb

    JerryTubb Guest

    Zilla,

    Maybe the files are losing some Quarks, i.e. sub-atomic particles, in the ftp transfer ? :D

    Yes, I'm making a joke... BUT

    a few times I've wondered if there is something invisible, smaller than bits & samples, that our analytical instruments can't measure...that can get lost in a transfer... ?

    I know it sounds like superstitious audio voodoo.... sub nano j*tter, any thoughts ?

    Usually I pass it off as the placebo effect, but I'm not 110% convinced.

    Peace

    8)
     
  10. iq

    iq Guest

    Yes, we need a CONFIDENZ-MULATOR to restore the sub nano jitter that might lost in ftp transferring :lol:
     
  11. jamiey

    jamiey Guest

    No, I think Zilla is just a brilliant comedian, such that it almost didn't pass as a joke.
     
  12. jtron

    jtron Guest

    Thanks everyone for the feedback.
    Im going to ftp the files and cautiously listen for any degredation and or quark loss.
     
  13. mixandmaster

    mixandmaster Active Member

    I've never had/heard a problem...

    yet
     
  14. Zilla

    Zilla Active Member

    For the record, I was not joking. But I think the nano-quark jitter remark was pretty funny. Maybe we should send Leonard Nimoy in search of........ . . . . .
     
  15. TrilliumSound

    TrilliumSound Active Member

    Yes I did and I do it several times a week.

    I think there is something really obvious in terms of degradation if there is several people that can accurately choose them blind, 19 out of 20 times !! I don't know...I still maintain that there might be something wrong with the FTP processes on your end. Otherwise, at least 6 or 7 people here in this thread would have said that they heard a degradation because of FTP transferts, no?

    Did you read a bit the link that I previously posted ? Maybe it can lead you to something or ring a bell, never know.

    All the best,

    Richard
     
  16. Zilla

    Zilla Active Member

    Possibly so. But all our other documents and emails arrive without apparent change, I don't know. We are currently having a T1 line installed, so maybe that will move things in the right direction. Thanks for that link. I did download it but its not light reading (for me anyway). When the studio schedule relaxes a little, I will give it a study.
     
  17. TrilliumSound

    TrilliumSound Active Member

    Great, let us know...I am personally very interested about this.

    Thanks,

    Richard
     
  18. lucidwaves

    lucidwaves Guest

    Me too (interested). To me it would seem that bits are bits and if they match there should be no difference. Also, if I thought that I heard a difference but the null test said otherwise I would chalk it up to the error being in my ear/head. Several people who hear a difference consistently though... wierd things happening.
     
  19. dpd

    dpd Active Member

    I'm having a REAL hard time with this one. It can't be timing / jitter - the file is just *data* and there is no timing associated with the file. It's simply a numbers game. If the ftp'd and original file are identical (and that's a pretty simple test for any good file editor), how in the world can they sound different?
     
  20. JerryTubb

    JerryTubb Guest

    OK Zilla

    Let's coin a new term here... Quark-Bits... a.k.a. Sub Atomic Bits !

    Maybe when it's actually proven... we'll get the Nobel from AES !

    Peace 8)
     

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