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Please remove your references to my products

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Ethan Winer, Jun 19, 2003.

  1. Ethan Winer

    Ethan Winer Active Member


    If you want to compare foam to my products, at least do it fairly. That is, show the relevant frequency ranges. Since you are either unwilling or incapable of providing a fair and unbiased comparison, I request that you edit your post to remove all references to my company's products.


  2. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Actually I don't think there are any references to your company. I thought I removed them. I will check. If you hadn't deleted the thread this was originally posted in, you would have had an opportunity to respond and make comments. BTW deleting threads and posts is against RO policy guidelines for moderators unless directed to do so by management. But don't worry, I saved the whole thread as a file. :D

    This is simply comparison of the coefficient ratings of various products as I can get them. May I remind you that you did not invent these wood panel traps. The design for them is in F. Alton Everest’s book, "The Master Handbook Of Acoustics". As far as I'm concerned, subject closed. Kurt
  3. Ethan Winer

    Ethan Winer Active Member


    > I don't think there are any references to your company. <

    You wrote, "4” wedge foam and 4 corner trap wedges will be as effective as a mini or panel trap."

    MiniTraps is a registered trademark of RealTraps, LLC. The specs you [improperly] give for a panel trap are taken from a copyrighted page on the RealTraps web site, and that data is valid only for RealTraps products, not panel traps in general.

    > If you hadn't deleted the thread <

    I truncated the thread because it was detracting from the professionalism of my forum. You turned it into an exercise in name calling, not me. You continued to ignore my points, and continued to express an "opinion" about my products even though by your own admission you have no experience with my products. Heck, I even retained your valid point that foam has unfairly become a scape-goat.

    > This is simply comparison of the coefficient ratings of various products as I can get them. <

    The fact that you list absorption at 1 KHz. for a RealTraps low-bass panel trap shows you have no clue as to what a panel trap does or how it's intended to be used. I told you repeatedly that a low-bass trap peaks at 90 Hz, and that data for foam at 125 Hz has no relationship to what it does at lower frequencies. Continuing to list the same erroneuous data in this second post shows me that you are skewing the data intentionally, and have an intent to defame me and my company.

    What did I ever do to you to deserve such lousy treatment? What is your real motive here?

  4. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    I have no motive. I have no agenda. I'm not selling anything. I am only attempting to generate interesting content for RO. If you have some other data you would prefer to post in regard to the performance of your types of products please feel free to do so. I will be happy to incorporate any new data into my comparison. If you wish to find data to substantiate that the foam data is incorrect, please be my guest. I have removed the oversight reference to your trademarked name..
    You should not have deleted those posts. You had no right to do that. You don't have the authority to delete something just because you don't like what it said. Let the readers decide for themselves. Moderators are only to delete threads or post for profanity, porn, race-gender-gay/hate. Anything that can get us in trouble with the server.. anything else is up to the discretion of the site admministrator. I have the whole thread saved. If you wish we could repost it and then you can show me where I called you any names. I am not making this personal. It is about Foam VS. Wood Panel Traps.

  5. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    None of this stuff happens on the old bewdnuosorp (read it backwards, cause you can't say bewdnuosorp on RO.
  6. omegaarts

    omegaarts Member

    When I joined this forum it said there was no rules just pro talking to pros.
    Sometime pros disagree. Let them work it out and the rest of us stay out of it.
  7. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    That no rules thing is bogus. When some one who is not a moderator goes to town on a manufacturer, or a concept, the PM's come in, your statement is edited, etc.
  8. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    As far as I am concerned, the same rules apply to everyone. Deletions are only to be done in the situations I previously sited. Any other deletions are only done by the site administrator, for what ever reason they may have. Moderators do not have the authority to delete whole threads for any reason.
  9. jslator

    jslator Guest

    Do the moderators know that rule? Because they don't all seem to follow it. In fact, I wouldn't be at all suprised if this post got deleted.

    BTW, I'm not referring to Ethan.
  10. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Where is democracy?
    Everyone has its right to show its point of view. Meanwhile, some stuff of mine has disappeared. I have to evaluate more...

    Hope things get clear between these 2 nice guys. Ro members lose..
    no big deal..
  11. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

    :) All I see here is debate, you have been around for a while now.

    On my DAW if I perform an incorrect procedure an icon appears that say's; "Oh! I see." I just have to backtrack to find what I did wrong.

    Someone may post something, then after consideration, may correct their own post. But there is a time or two when a post is a bad one, a request is made, denied, and there IS no choice. These decisions are not taken lightly.

  12. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Well if they don't perhaps this will serve to let them know. I can say that I do not delete posts except under those conditions.
  13. Gidge

    Gidge Guest

    in another thread, you said the guidelines for deleting threads are racism, porn, and slander......i need some clarification if im gonna be posting here because i tend to get on the slanderous side.......
  14. sheet

    sheet Well-Known Member

    I use a Mac. Is that offensive? lol

    Let's have these guys build a room. Both of them can deck it out with a minimum amount of their respective products of preference. Then lets test the room and see who has the chops.
  15. Ethan Winer

    Ethan Winer Active Member


    > see who has the chops <

    That's like pitting Peewee Herman against Mike Tyson. :d:

  16. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Moderators are only to delete threads or post for profanity, porn, race-gender-gay/hate. I would also delete anything that might put RO in a position of being sued for slander. That covers it but ther real guideline is just be polite, have some manners. Points can be made without personal attacks and name calling..
  17. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    What I would like to do is, test my room without treatments, then apply $500 worth of Ethans treatments. Take a measurement. Take down Ethans treatments and apply $500 worth of foam and test. see which $500 is the $500 best spent...
  18. Midlandmorgan

    Midlandmorgan Active Member

    This sure seems like a "less filling/tastes great" exchange...

    How about we say that both methods are very useful and perform as advertised, and leave it at that? I for one hate to see 2 people I respect and admire professionally diminished to a cleaned up version of a ****** flame war...

  19. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    For the record.. I NEVER said that panel traps and miniature membrane diaphragm absorbers don’t work. I am perfectly willing to accept that they work very well. I am asserting that FOAM WORKS TOO! I have no problem with foam being allowed to coexist in the same world with other methods. It is Ethan who insists that his way of doing things is the only way and nothing else will do.

    What are my motivations for taking this stance? Well, for one I hope to get my recording CR in better shape without spending $1500! So I want something that is less expensive (less filling).

    What are Ethan’s motivations for taking his stance? (tastes better!) Well for one, he made some statements regarding the performance of his traps and absorbers vs. foam a while ago, before he had taken his products to the lab to be tested. The results of these tests have shown that while the panels traps work well and are superior in some applications, they do not “kill” foam as Ethan has previously stated. Foam is still a worthy competitor. But Ethan has to maintain his stance in light of the statements he made in the past.

    Last, Ethan is a manufacturer of Panel Traps and miniature membrane diaphragm absorbers. He wants you to buy his product and not someone else’s. I expect that, just as I expect that from anyone else who is a manufacturer. I on the other hand, am not selling anything!

    I am comparing data as it is supplied to me by various manufactures and it appears to me that foam will do the job for me in my situation. Ethan has a point when he says that foam can be overkill in some situations. In a very small area, the amount of foam needed to trap the area out would cause over absorption and make the room too dead. In that scenario, panel traps would be a better choice because they not only bass trap but they are also reflective. By using both absorption and reflective surfaces, something of a balance may be struck. But on the other hand, I myself, would never try to build a control room in a very small place for a number of reasons (but that’s another discussion). In a larger area, I believe that foam may be useful. My situation is that I will put up 3 corner style foam bass traps (6’), lined with a 4’ row of 4” foam on each side. I am notoriously bad at math but I think this will give me a coverage of 60 square feet of 4” foam in each of the front corners of the room where my Mains are located. I believe that my 120 square feet of 4” foam will do much more for the sound of the room for an expenditure of $500 or less, than 2 of Ethan’s miniature membrane diaphragm absorbers that would cost about the same or 2 of his panel traps that would supply no absorption and be even more expensive.. Kurt
  20. Ethan Winer

    Ethan Winer Active Member


    RealTraps does not sell the cheapest treatment solutions. We sell the best treatment solutions. If all you can afford is $500, then by all means buy foam and cover your walls. It won't be as good as treating your room properly with MiniTraps, but hey, that's all you can afford.

    Foam is certainly a viable solution for amateurs, home recordists, and weekend studios that charge $20 per hour. Folks like that probably care about the sound of their rooms, but obviously not enough to justify professional acoustic treatment. Or perhaps they know the difference but just can't afford to do a proper job.

    On the other hand, real audio pros understand the difference between the cheapest solution and the best solution. These folks don't use a SoundBlaster Live as their main sound card and Radio Shack mikes for drum overheads. They assess acoustic treatment using the same criteria as when buying mikes, preamps, and outboard gear.


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