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Print vs Export

Discussion in 'Recording' started by audiokid, May 3, 2012.

  1. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Absolutely superior results printing your mix rather than exporting/ bouncing. Thanks to Boswell. NO SRC ( sample rate conversion) happening here anymore.

    My new set-up is two versions of Sequoia 12 but Pro Tools, Reaper, Cubase, Sonar, whatever your DAW of choice is, if you've been doing the src and exporting on the same DAW system, I garantee if you print your mix to another DAW or tape, you will have better results and have way more fun getting there. Sequoia is one of the best DAW out there and I noticed a difference. If you are using PT, its a no brainer.

    I was thinking about buying a DSD for this but this works great.

    I have my main DAW for tracking, mixing and hybrid, the other DAW to print the 2-bus. No Sample Rate Conversion needed this way.

    DIY mastering, MP3, CD, whatever, it just sounds better now.

    Monitoring with the Dangerous ST is stellar. I plug that because this changed my life and I want others to be as happy as I am. My mixes are EXACTLY what I hear. Sum and print, Talk about loving it now.

    I'm sure many converters will do the trick but I just happen to love Lavry gear. The new Lavry AD11 is choice for printing the 2-bus. I originally bought it for being such a great mobile preamp/converter combo but after using it for this, 2 thumbs up Lavry! It plugs into anything that has a a free USB port and you are HD. So simple and just excellent results.

    Highly recommended !

    Anyone else doing this? Whats your story?
     
  2. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    I'm glad the two-stack technique made a worthwhile difference. I haven't done any detailed comparisons lately, but from what you have described, even the latest SRCs are not matching the quality level that can be achieved by re-sampling in the analog domain. I don't think I would necessarily recommend the method to people who do not have pretty good D-A and A-D, though.
     
  3. leopoldolopes

    leopoldolopes Active Member

    I notice a difference the way I work now than before... I mix OTB with a Hybrid system! The dynamics are way better, with a pretty awesome stereo image, although my converters are better now than it was before! I us e Nuendo 3 as DAW to record and mix!
    But as I always say, your hears and experience makes the difference not the tools you have!
     
  4. audiokid

    audiokid Staff


    Not the tools? The tools don't matter? No offense, please, lets move into the pop culture and assume we already know what we are doing in this forum. Yes, it is about using your ears and not your eyes or any preconceived notions about what might or might not be best but I definitely appreciate working with good tools and know they do make a difference. I'm certain my recordings would not sound as good on all the crap gear I started out with.

    Trusting a statement like that from a pro, I know I would never have been able to play in the clubs I have over the last 30 years had I been using cheap gear. Are you listening kids! When I bought a killer PA system and a professional live console everything sounded better the very next day! I noticed people danced more too and, I even made more money, a lot of money.
    Good gear has ALWAYS been a great investment for me.
    And you know what! I actually learned more every-time I bought better gear and I haven't stopped learning either. But all the way through my 35 year music carerr, gear has always been top priority.

    I know I play better on a finely built guitar that has beautiful action, tone and new strings. I just can't seem to play as inspired and as precise or as long on those $150 Chinese knock-offs like I can on a Taylor or PRS 10. So, I invested in quality all my life and am now an excellent guitarist.
    I also love my Rivera Amp with new tubes over my friends crappy Sears Raven amp that he's had since he was a kid. His parents said that was good enough and he never amounted to anything.
    And I do love my new LA-2A's on Vocals. I'd hate to live without those now. And wow, DPA 4011 sound wonderful through a Millennia M-2b or SPL Premiums.

    But if I had too, I'm sure I could get by on all the stuff I started out on but I don't think I would have had near the career and opportunities over the last 35 years. So wth does that statement "But as I always say, your ears and experience makes the difference not the tools you have!" mean in a professional world. Maybe someone will find you in your basement and help you get a job one day? So you can discover you need tools to make it in this industry. In any industry!

    After I became experienced and "confident", my ears and brain told me, if I wanted to get ahead in this industry, I needed better gear that didn't sound like tin, mud and mid range honk, no headroom etc.
    Better power, cable, grounding, speakers, a transparent monitoring system and of course an excellent room and acoustic treatment may help just a bit too.

    If you are a professional, not lots of it but the right gear definitely is top on my list for the must have's. I don't care who you are or what you are doing, a musician or a carpenter, GEAR/ the right tools for the job is where its AT! You cannot build a house on brains and talk alone.
     
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Hi Bos, I totally agree, gear does matter. And this is in fun for leopoldolopes' "like" over his statment about tools not mattering. Just having fun.

    (y)
     
  6. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    leopoldolopes, now that I've poked fun at you, or that general statement, diddlydoo I hope you appreciate my opinion too, chime in again and get a little more serious with me and share what you are using OTB for summing and gear?

    What made you decide to go hybrid?
     
  7. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Well-Known Member

    It's funny Chris, that basically, I've always gone hybrid. I've mixed on some digital consoles which I thought was cool. But I still came out of those analog outputs from the digital consoles to the inputs of another computer audio interface. But then again, I still prefer coming out of the old analog Neve and/or API from digital recorders. It's all the same dish with a different recipe. It's a Pavarotti versus Marilyn Horne. Domingo versus Sutherland. Some are boys. Some are girls. All of which are hard to top. Because they are the top. But whatever goes up must come down as evidence in the reasonably priced entry-level equipment that most newcomers go for. It's like asking what's the best, TEAC or, Behringer? Answer: neither. And while it makes a big difference it makes an even bigger difference for those that cannot afford the best. We are both very lucky to have that we have and have been able to afford what we have. So while I know that I am rather arrogant about this, you're on a pretty high horse yourself right now, LOL. And now you know why you feel that way. It's hard to go back to a Corvair after a Stingray. And you never want to look back again. But it's still a wonderful and fun challenge to squeeze the very best you can out of the common crap. I love to show people how to get good recordings on their entry-level equipment because it's not impossible. It's the performers and the music that really make the difference not the equipment. That only complements the good folks. It won't make any difference with the people that have no talent in performing or engineering. They will not be able to glean what you have. Sad but true. And we both come from the best stock, our mums.

    Marilyn Cotlow is 88
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Its not about the gear

    I've always been on a high horse lol. smoke But not ego, its been a high on life and inspired through knowledge and success stories (not success as in money necessarily) . Even when I had to kill flies in a laundry mat to buy bread and a can of soup during hard times, I've always been grateful for everything to this day. I know how fast a good thing can disappear. And people, OMG, we are a viscous breed making the rules up as we go. We can be so kind one day and murder the next.

    At 55 this year, I now need glasses and I choose to have one good pair rather than 4 off the shelf pairs. I could buy four pairs, and have one pair in each room but I wouldn't be as happy because I wouldn't be seeing life as clear. I'd be miserable and frustrated so I bought one good pair that cost more money so I see everything much clearer.

    Yup, we have and had good Mom's Remy. Give your's a hug everyday.
    Hey,
    Does your Mon know Marta Eggerth? I recall her name mentioned in my home but it was a long time ago. Mom died 12 years back from MS. Marta Eggerth hit 100 last month. BOSS U.S. - GT-8: Guitar Effects Processor I listened to an interview with her and she said the secret is in your mind. And she sings because she loves it. Sounds like good advice to me!

    Yup, this printing to a second DAW is like having new glasses. My final statement on hybrid is coming soon, then I will calm down a bit and let it simmer. I had to buy it all to know whether it was all hype or not. Not sure I will ever make more money with my investment, like I used to in this business but its sure a lot more fun these days and I'm not doing it for money anymore. It all out of passion and the quest for great sound.

    I read an article from some famous guy on Sound on Sound tonight. He also said something close to " its not about the gear, its how you use it and about the flavour we bring to a mix. My SSL is like playing an instrument, riding faders and even moving them so fast it simulates vibrato" . He has 40 flavours of compressors alone.

    And he says its not about the gear. WTH does that mean? Do we need to establish every-time we talk about recording, its not about the gear?
    Gawd, I hate all these sayings, (Its not about the gear) . And there is 100 thousand DAW users running plug-ins on every channel.

    I can't imagine needing to move faders like that to a point its sounds like a vibrato. But right on, it works for him and that's whats important. But, what ever happened to the original performance and the pride of the artist?
    Its not about the gear my ass. Pop music is about how you use all the tricks and racks of gear including knock-off plugins to a point you change the original sound into some artificial masterpiece.
    We sample the crap out of everything, use plug-ins on every channel and change a song to a point that no one could ever perform it live like that in a million years today. And its not about the gear, ROTF.

    ITB or OTB, its either about plug-ins or gear one way or another. Aren't plug-ins gear too?
    Singing is the closest thing to the the performance, everything else is about something more than just music. We need gear of some kind to translate the sound in our minds to the audience. So much BS floating around this business, its crazy. As soon as money is involved, the music gets effected.

    But its fun if you don't take it all too serious and smile when someone say's " Its not about the gear lol" .

    Its been about gear ever since I got my first electric guitar and amp.

    What came first, this chicken or the egg :)
     
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Remy,

    You all coming from the tape era had a head start on the DAW crowd because you were already hip to mix down machines and the process.

    I've been doing the SRC for 13 years. What a waste of time looking back now. I should pull that old Pro Tools 24 system out of the closet and mess with it, but the converters are so terrible it would be hard to enjoy it anyway. I'm spoiled.

    What are you mixing down on now? When you say hybrid, I don't know if I've ever asked what converters you are running OTB and what DAW you are using?

    I'd like to know what your chain is?
     
  10. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything you said. Being an old-school engineer, having dealt with tape, a minimum of processing, effects, I think was an advantage because there weren't so many choices like there are today. You had to think things through. You had to experiment. You had to innovate. You had to improvise, compromise. There are too many choices today. Just as Americans have way too much freedom. You give people a hand and they want an arm. Our culture down here has been based too much upon greed. It's embarrassing. It's disgusting. It's unbelievable and all too true.

    So much of the music produced today is what I refer to as " manufactured music ". We come from a background of parents who are artists. They only relied upon their own training, talent and expertise from within. How can I not follow their lead? I guess I was raised wrong by today's standards? LOL Yes, I believe is someone that lives here in the lower 48, even with our slight differences in culture, I think most of us down here are far more arrogant than you much more eloquent and laid-back folks are up north? I can't help it I'm just another arrogant dumb ass American.

    Within recent years and especially since my brain surgery, I have found it almost impossible to get back to a point I once enjoyed. So my funds have also been nil. That has forced me to rely upon less than stellar analog to digital converters. I'm using average affordable stuff like the entry-level folks mostly use. So, my best probably being my Digi/Avid M-Box 2 and a 10-year-old MOTU 2408, along with my lesser Edirol UA 1 EX & M-Audio Transit and of course my Alesis HD 24 XR which ain't half bad sounding but these are not high end converters by any stretch of the imagination. Thankfully, the front end and the mixing console makes a large enough difference in the capture quality to offset some of the converters lack of sweetness IMHO. Sometimes the Neve, utilizing just the I/O modules and not the 3115 preamp/EQ modules essentially makes the desk one big large active summing box still with all that coloration and flavoring of the multitudes of Transformers it still has to traverse to get in and get out. Sometimes I can just utilize my pair of API 3124M's as an active summing box. With those, one can utilize the DI input which bypasses the microphone transformers and the outputs have no transformers from the active combining amplifier mixer drive outputs. So with that you're just getting the 2520 sound without the influence of any transformers. Other custom summing boxes I've built are completely passive inputs to just the active summing and output drive amplifiers and are also transformer free. I'm really not into the esoteric stuff beyond that which I have already mentioned. I've heard the differences but don't feel that it's of a major importance to me.

    In a conversation I had once with George Massenburg be related to me that he really hated some of the verbal rhetoric that people use to describe certain sounds such as warm, transparent, neutral, etc.. I thought that rather funny since everything that he has conceived and had designed essentially leaned on the side of pure accuracy? So I never quite understood his dislike for everyone else's explanatory rhetoric? What the heck else are you supposed to say? What? I just want what goes in to come out the same way? I want a straight piece of wire? I don't want to hear any electronics in my electronics? I don't want to hear the flow of holes going in reverse from the electrons? My mentor tried to explain to me the flow of holes when I'm still just a teenager. That's a concept that's difficult to grasp when you know which way the electrons are heading. And I'm no electrical engineer like he was. Other folks like myself whom I've also spoken to in depth, just like delivering good quality mixes and sound. Even Bob Clearmountain likes some of the older Apogee stuff and older SSL 4000 E's sound to a lot of the newer stuff that even Apogee makes which his wife owns. So what's that tell you? It says that some people like chocolate milk on their cereal instead of white milk on their cereal. I've never put chocolate milk on my cereal. I've never even wanted to. I mean with cocoa puffs, you end up with chocolate milk even if you install white milk on them. And I go cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

    In all honesty, I rather like my little UA1EX. But then I don't have a finer Lavery to compare it to which might make me want to vomit if I were to? And since I have no funding to go after a Lavery it's all moot to me. Though that might change in the future? When I have a better supply of incoming work. Otherwise, it ain't going to happen. Though it might be one of the first things I would go after especially because of your descriptions because I value your opinions and observations and passions. And I've heard your stuff which sounds stunningly beautiful and I'm sure that's the Lavery's. I don't even have any stunning software such as Sequoia. Adobe Audition at 32-bit float and/or Sony's Sound Forage/Vegas is still adequate for my purposes and needs. I can't even imagine this stuff running 64-bit float within over 5000 DB capable processing range? After all, what is everything still get played back on but streaming MP3's, iPods, earbuds and all the rest of that trash. Some of my friends are Audiophiles with their $10,000 tube power amps & $10,000 pair of speakers, $3500 turntables all that crazy stuff which is akin to owning a Bentley or Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati. Everybody talks about wanting to have the best audio but they're driving Toyotas. Why? I worked with a rock 'n roller once, back in the mid-1970s that told me " you are what you drive ". So he had a Lincoln Continental. And that made him feel like a more successful rock 'n roller. Even though he was just a crappy local Baltimore band. So most of this is a state of mind and being than anything else. And being spoiled about something that you have, I think is a lovely thing. It's a state of bliss which is a wonderful way to feel about yourself and something in your life. It's a feeling of accomplishment of success. It's a positive way to be which has to be good for anyone. I feel sad when folks feel that their equipment is too mediocre for them to produce a professional product. Sure, the better the equipment the better the product provided that the operator has what it takes to deliver. But everybody loves a crutch. And therein lies the problem.

    I'm so sorry that you lost your mom to MS. My mom lost her aunt to that. So it runs in my family and I have it too in addition to the brain damage. In fact I am seeing my doctor on Tuesday because the left half of my face & body for the past week has gone somewhat numb. So I'm scared out of my freaking mind what little I have left of it. And it might thwart my trip to Nashville for MIX Nashville and my other plans for the two weeks I had planned to be there? It's always something you know, Murphy's Law and all that. I can't let it get me down. I haven't had any symptoms of the MS since my brain surgery 6.5 years ago. Maybe this is just the aging process? Maybe I've had a minor stroke? Maybe I haven't been recording enough rock 'n roll? Who knows? Three quarters of my friends have dropped dead before they hit 50. Some barely made it beyond 50. Some didn't see 60. Life is short. We never know when we are going to hit the lottery or hit the wall? I've just been grateful to be here and contributing to your fabulous site. Thanks again for having me a part of this. It's made a huge difference for me in my life. My career might be down the tubes my financial situation nonexistent but every day that I wake up (if I go to sleep at all?) is a good day. Topped off by stopping in daily, when I can, here at Recording.org. It's one of the simple pleasures in life for me and one that has helped stitch back together so many of these damaged synapses. OMG I am one lucky Schmuck.

    I don't have a chain I have a shaft drive on my motorcycle.
    Remy Ann David
     
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