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Pro Tools and Reverb? Stedel "bounces' back.

Discussion in 'Pro Tools' started by stedel, Nov 12, 2001.

  1. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Hi folks. I posted a query re the quality of reverb-plug ins on Julians forum.Greg thought it should be a ProTools topic and to post it here. Me, I'm just confused and want to be everybody's friend. I thought here would be good place to maybe try and follow up the stuff that relates specifically to Pro Tools, which is when all said and done, my own need.
    The general opinion -which fitted with mine,seems to be that the quality of available plug ins are good
    enough for basic jobs, but not for the really critical work that this tool is used for in the
    mix stage.This is a shame because there was a really noticable abscence of quality in verb plug ins on the platform which I'm migrating from.
    Why this is the case, I don't know. There are many excellent quality outboard digital boxes, it's not as though we haven't been convinced that you can't do it digitally. Is this another "things will be better when its 240bits and 700kHz" problem associated with DAW sound in general? I thought of going with the DigiVerb for the More Bleedingly Obvious stuff (MBO's), and remaining outboard for the nice stuff that I love.My price range is up with the Orville if I break up my family, but probably around the Eclipse level (I like my family).I still find that this level -of the Eclipse, the mid range Lexicons etc although still not really really high end, is the one that I prefer not to go below.By the way, I don't know if you folks understand how expensive this stuff is in Australia.You would be amazed
    So any further thoughts, recommendations. Why the delay in a good plug in verb?(Ha Ha -but seriously...)
  2. Irene

    Irene Guest


    Firstly I think that Reverb One is a very good Reverb plug-in.
    Secondly, you are a real character. Can you point me to any of your music?

  3. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Sure. I'll post you personally
  4. stedel

    stedel Guest

  5. Hi Stedel,

    << My price range is up with the Orville if I break up my family, but probably around the Eclipse level (I like my family).I still find that this level -of the Eclipse, the mid range Lexicons et >>

    I've played around quite a lot with the Orville. IMHO it's probably about the best effects/multi-effects box on the market. However, I personally am not that taken by Eventide's pure reverb algorithms. For pure reverb I much prefer the high end Lexicons.

    For the kind of level you are looking at, say a PCM91, TC3000, etc., It would definitely be worth you downloading a demo of Reverb One and giving it a try. You might be pleasantly surprised. If not then at least you know that you should forget about reverb plugs for the time being and look at outboard boxes.

  6. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Renie.Hi Amigo.Just having a short white here at the Reverb Cantina. So... now you know a little bit more about me.Are you a coffee drinker yourself? Me I love it.
    Have you tried it with a dash of Frangelico liquour? If you're into coffee at all, and you've never tried this, highly recommended.
    So tell me Amigo, when you said I'm a bit of a character...what did you mean? I'm curious. (Stedel takes another sip of his Frangelico flat white, and waits politely for a reply).
  7. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Dear Greg.The TC mid priced verbs and delays got v.good reviews in Sound On Sound. I really respect the reviews in this magazine.People like Paul White and Hugh Robojohn IMHO seem to give a good run down on equipment.
    In your reply to my post about ProTools and Reverb on Julian's forum,you followed on after mentioning Lexicon and TC, by saying"I guess they didn't want to give away their best algorithms" - (for plug ins).Why is that the case do you think with Reverb? Any ideas? Antares for instance, don't seem to have a problem with their Autotune stuff. Both plugins and outboard units seem to be on par.People seem pretty happy with the quality of the plug in in particular.It also doesn't seem to be a problem for the various EQ's available to Pro Tools.Is this a particular problem with reverb algorithms do you think?
    I mean take the new Kurtzweil KSP8. After Julian suggested I check the Kurtzweil out, I did this at more length this morning after I posted on Why Digi Is Dragging Its Feet..So,seeing as how you read
    my reply, do you remember the descriptive terminology I used for a quality reverb? Well check this out from the Kurtzweil site re the KSP8.
    "The sonic quality of the KSP8 is STUNNING (my emphasis)....Exquisite effects presets ranging from spacious to GORGEOUS (my emphasis)."
    They also coincidentally use the same term to describe the design of their operating system that I used to describe the current Pro Tools design approach, namely "elegant".

    Now is this next bit true, or is the following hyperbole? Whadya reckon?
    From the Kurtzweil site:
    "The world's most powerful effects processor....it has the best audio analog specification in the industry" In respect to Pro Tools and surround sound, the KSP8 comes with "new algorithms for surround sound processing, including 5.1 surround ambience and reverb"
    Hmm.So let's take this at face value. How much is this thing? (still waiting on info from the Aussie distributor). If it is this good, how much could you market a software equivalent for The New Pro Tools do you think? Even the current one. The KSP8 weighs in at 24bits up to 48kHz.Probably sound nice with the Sony EQ - also 48kHz from memory. And, also, if Sony are succesful with the high end quality of their new EQ plug in, maybe they'll have a go at doing the same with their rather tasty sampling reverb unit - can't recall the model designation. Comes with some sort of fake timber veneer I think.Imagine something like that running within The new Pro Tools System. I think, as, Jim Carey's character in the Mask would say, maybe we would be "smokin'" . Kind regards
  8. Irene

    Irene Guest

    Hi Stedel,
    Yes one of my favourite things in life is coffee.
    I don't drink alcohol much at all but I may try your tip one day, thanks. I also limit my coffee drinking otherwise I'd get strung out!

    My comment about your being a character was because I noticed your style is quite unusual for these forums. I wish I hadn't said it now because it's too ambiguous and personal. The point, however, was that it made me curious to know what music you make!!!Thanks for giving me details on that!
    Renie :)
  9. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Hi Renie. Glad you called back. Can't say I'm a big drinker of alcohol myself.It's not my preferred drug. I even prefer coffee for instance. But the occasional nip of Frangelica in a short white is a nice bit of luxury.
    I re-read the reply I gave to you earlier on in this post (I do that with things I write.I've learnt it's a bit of a wise thing for someone like me to do that occassionally).
    I noticed I wrote
    "I hope your experience with Reverb One was better than mine".
    Erm...that's not what I meant to say at all.Even if you understood it in the context of my ramble, I'd just like to point this out in case there was any misunderstanding.I meantplug-insin general. Apart from anything else I've had no experience of using Reverb One! So many apologies. And to the makers of Reverb One!!!I'm going back to change it!
    BTW my notion of good or "best" does not always equate with "most expensive", or "the one so and so uses".I've sometimes prefered so called mid range gear to "high end sell your car to get one" stuff. Even within a range produced by the same manufacturer.
    Reverb One, whenever I've seen it mentioned, discussed, reviewed etc. is one that people consider to be one of the more better quality reverb plug ins available.
    And,just before I go, as you probably know by now, I would be a liar to attempt to fein surprise at somebody thinking I was a bit of a character.This has been a comment made about me by many people, including my mum, my friends, colleagues, even the police, throughout my life.
    (And as you also know, re the police, it wasn't because I was bad or anything (!)I'm really a very respectable, sound(ouch)kind of guy.
    Kind Regards
  10. Hi Stedel,

    A few years ago I read a very telling interview with the Managing Director of TC. He basically stated that TC would not be using their best algorithms for theirplug-ins He went on to explain that in hardware boxes the algorithms are hard coded into ROM chips and are extremely difficult to extract. Not so withplug-ins where virtually any moderately experienced hacker can break into the software and get hold of the algorithms.

    Thinking about it, this makes a lot of sense. Let's take Lexicon as an example. The components inside a Lexicon reverb unit are all fairly standard, it's the algorithms themselves that separates Lexicon from the crowd and makes them a market leader. Now if your multi-million dollar business and reputation is based on a set of algorithms how willing would you be to distribute those algorithms in a software package that is relatively easy to hack?

    Considering the asking price and Kurtweil's limited track record with reverb I would be surprised if the KSP8 can compete with the high end offerings mentioned before. However, I've never seen or used one, so what do I know!

  11. Hi,
    I have a few outboard Rev's which I have not used for years (Lexicon 224's) Having had the experience on the Lark ,I find it fairly easy to get a setting that is acceptable for any CD I have had to do. I am using DigiVerb, Waves TruVerb & Renaissance Reverb. I have some stuff like Enya with lush rev's & a lot of Jazz & classical where I have a small room to glue stuff together. The top end of most presets have to be modified ,sometimes with extraplug-inse.g. PS22, EQ, Delay etc. The stereo image is the big thing with me so the PS22 is avery handy thing. So the Plug Rev's are very usable with a bit of tweaking & the quality of Ren Rev & Reverb One are up there with the Lexicon without question.
    Regards Michael Henshaw
    EarthMedia Studios Sydney
  12. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Dear Greg and Michael Earth Media.
    Thanks for your replies.I appreciate the time you take to answer me queries. It's Monday over here and I'm flat out. I'll be able to take time to read your posts later today...I hope.Stay in touch if this interests you. It interests me. I'll post tomorrow. Kind regards.
  13. stedel

    stedel Guest

    So after all this info. What is Stedel thinking?
    Well Stedel is thinking I will take the time and seriosly go through this stuff.
    First I'm gonna check out some of the issues raised
    here over on Julian's post "Why digi are dragging their feet"
    BTW, if some of you want some more info, additional
    comments, or maybe want to read what other people are thinking on Reverb and related issues try visiting The Engineers and Producers forum over on
    Pro Talk.I recently posted on Reverb, DAWs. and similar issues discussed here. If you haven't visited, give it a try. Like here, there's some interesting views, opinions, advice, and cos it's my post, a bit of lively banter.
    Kind regards
    Thanks for your time.Much appreciated.

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