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PT MIX X PT HD @ 44.1k/24bits

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Alécio Costa - Brazil, Dec 25, 2002.

  1. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Hi friends!
    Seems this is my first post on this forum page..

    I use PT Mix 5.1.1 with 2 adat bridges light piped to an 02R, mostly at 44.1k/24 bits. I know this is weird and hard to quantize, but assuming two different situations that I present below.. what are the advantages in each case, in terms of percentage:

    a) PT MIX x PT HD both at 44.1k/24 bits

    b) PT MIX @ 44.1k/24 bits x PT HD @ 88.2k/24bits

    I have seen percentages of :
    a) 20%
    b) 30%

    Some friends have also recommended me of keeping my Mix system with the 02R and upgrade mic pres and do.

    So.. whar are your points of view?

    Thanks Again!
    Alécio Costa - Brazil :p
  2. Opus2000

    Opus2000 Well-Known Member

    percentage of what? Performance? Sound quality? More customers?
    What is it you are looking to achieve at 88.2 vs 44.1? What are you recording that needs to be that high of a sampling rate? If it's rock or hip hop...save yourself some money and stay with your current setup. You don't need higher sampling rates just record better music. People have been making fantastic sounding stuff for years at 44.1 or 48....
  3. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    hI OPUS!
    I mean overall. sound, performance

    are you a PT user?
  4. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Is his percentage processor usage?


    No...... I am an advocate of keeping samplerate conversions minimalized if you can. the 24/44.1 works well. When dat was the thing, 16/48 was the norm but then if the src was not hip a 16/44.1 was actually better.

    The only reason to go past 44.1 (the redbook format) is in wave restoration.


    Recording up their and hearing a difference (like 88.1 and 96 and even 192) is only if the equipment you are using, (mics, room, speakers, outboard, wires, etc..) is if that you hear large differences in the hi bit.

    I find that if I record at 192K in 32 bit float (turning the hell of of the hard drive) what happens is the down conversion **CAN** (not in my case at this time) cause more problems than if it were kept at a 24/44.1.

    It depends on the situation.

    Remember, experimenting with HIBIT means you also have another level of translation to look forward to..for many this is not the best thing.
  5. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    I just can not see an inteligent reason to record at 88.2/96k or even 192k if we are using microphones, outboard gear, mic pres and all the $*^t with badwidht limited up to 22khz in the best scenarios.
    also, the SRC, no matter if it is analog or digital, something goes out...
  6. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Yes Alecio, you got that 100% correct.
  7. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks Dear. Man, it have just appeared on here a CD of TUPI GUARANI indians to be mastered. It is very very strange!!!!!!!
    It was recorded live at their place, lots of peak info at 1250hz. I will send you soon some weird stuff I have been doing, like the HORN BAND projects, Capoeira and now this Indian thing.
    Let us see if I will do it
  8. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Alécio,

    Firstly I personally would do away with the O2R, the internal mixing of PT Mix or PT HD is far superior. In fact, not only would I do it, but a few years ago I put my money where my mouth was and actually did just this!

    Also, there is an intelligent reason for recording at the higher sample frequencies and then downsampling at the end. Depending on what you are recording and how you are mixing however, there may not be a massive difference but the theory goes like this: One of the big problems with 44.1k is the very steep brickwall filters used to keep everything below 22.05kHz. They create quite a few artifacts. All ADCs have this problem, although the hugely expensive units like the dB Techs, have much better filters than cheaper units. Let's say you are recording 24 tracks, each of those tracks are going to have the same filter artifacts created by your ADC, you are then going to sum those artifacts together in the mixing process. The filters at 88.2k are much gentler and therefore create far fewer artifacts. So in theory at least, you are better to record at 88.2k, mix everything together and then SRC to 44.1k. Thereby only applying those nasty filters the once rather than consecutively across each and every track in your mix. Obviously if you are recording all your tracks directly from a sampler or synth then the filters have already been applied inside those digital boxes and you are not going to notice much of a difference. However, you would probably notice much more of a difference if the material you are working with is recorded live where mics and preamps don't have the harsh 22kHz brickwall filters.

    One other piece of advice, if you are going to stick with your O2R or if you are going to link a PT Mix and PT HD together then get yourself a decent master clock generator and workclock slave all your kit to it.

    Hope this helps,

  9. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks Greg, Very good info. I think Nika mentioned similar things either.
    I was thinking of upgrading to the 02R 96K instead of investing lots of money with a PT HD rig. have you tried the new board friend?
  10. RobertS2003

    RobertS2003 Guest

    Hi All!
    All this business about sample rates and such IMO are user specific.
    For tracking and mixing most pop music 44.1 rate is just fine. Especially if it is demo material. I personally recomend getting the best possible signal flow to tape/hard disk first.

    What are your objectives?
    Tracking? Mixing? Mastering?
    What gear do you currently own?
    Mics? Pres? A/D converters?
    How much do you have to spend?
    What are you unhappy with that makes you feel you need to buy something else?

  11. Pez

    Pez Active Member

    My view of this is that there is science and then there is reality. Theory has it that 88.2 will be better especially when processing your audio with plugs (assuming of course that the plugs will work at the higher bit rate- another problem). I say do a duplicate recording- one at 44 and another at 88, add a few plugs that you normally use, dither it down to 16 bits CD and then post the two files and see if anyone here can hear the difference in a blind test. I would bet that 97% of the expert ears here couldn't hear the difference. If you take other people's advice on this issue you will always be wondering about it. Just try it yourself so that you can free your mind to contemplate more important sound issues such as mic placement.
  12. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks John!
    Nice 2003 to you !!!
  13. Henchman

    Henchman Active Member

    ALecio, what about the DM2000 or DM1000?

    I can see using these instead of the still questionable PT mixbus.

    I've already seen one guy who got fed up and sold his HD rig, after suffering through years of PT's mixing. He upgraded, hoping it would eb better. And discovered it did nothing to change the quailty of his mixes.

    BTW, this was someone who is very experienced, and used to mix analog, and was always very happy. Untill he succumbed to the PT's nightmare.
  14. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Hi Henchman! In fact I have not been very into this 88/96K HD thing very much.
    I am seriously thinking of upgrading my 02R V2 to 02R 96K beforehand. I like consoles, not mouse or virtual controllers...

    What bout ya man?
    Nice 2003
  15. RobertS2003

    RobertS2003 Guest

    Has anyone spent any time with the small Sony mixer..DM-XR1??...I think that what it is...I know the Oxford plug ins are the best sounding digital EQ's I have heard..At least on TDM. About twice the price of the 02r 96 but if the EQ's are as good as the Oxford plugs it is worth it.
  16. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks friend. How much for this bundle?
  17. RobertS2003

    RobertS2003 Guest

    The small Sony Console is around $19,000 US dollars.of course this is negotiable as enything else is....do a search on the web for the Sony mixers and you will find it...as well definately download teh Sony plug ins for Pro Tools if you haven't..you can find them @ http://www.sonyplugins.com ...I think....If you have trouble finding this stuff let me know.
  18. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks friend. Hope they run under OS 9.2.2 and Mix systems.
  19. Pez

    Pez Active Member

    RobertS2003, Wish I could try the Oxford. I can't afford that high end pro tools TDM stuff. I live in VST land. I've heard good things about the UAD-1 Cambridge EQ however and am anxious to try it out as I love their other plugs. Hmmm... someone here needs to design the Yale and Harvard EQ unit lol.

    Alécio, I always enjoy your posts. Wishing you and all here at RO a blessed and happy 2003.
  20. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks friend!
    Have a nice 2003 !!

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