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Specific Ergonomic Design

Discussion in 'Recording' started by realdynamix, Apr 15, 2002.

  1. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

    :)Hello! Stedel, and all.
    I was thinking about design. Just about all mixing consoles have everything right where it should be. Production switchers, Chyrons, and other specific production tools are made in a way that just about anyone, with some experience, can operate these things effectively, like a car. A DAW, or DVW share common characteristics, monitors, a keyboard, and a mouse. But the software does not seem to have ergonomic considerations. I find working with most software tedious, confusing, frustrating, and pokey. I know people who can rip through software with no problems, but something ends up screwed up. File mismanagement, lost folders, a wrong keystroke, or something that slows down the pace of the work considerably. Though there are shortcuts, it seems that a persons hand/eye coordination and movement is far too wasteful when vibing on their work.
    For the office, it is perfect, darn near. Why is there not a control board (replacing standard keyboard), like the Fairlight uses, available for PC, or MAC, that is key specific to A/V software, and software that is specific to that controller? I know for myself, that dedicated systems layout can run circles around generic computer layout.
    Any thoughts? Maybe the production houses don’t want that kind of efficiency!
    --Rick
     
  2. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Cool post Rick.
    I'll be back!!! :cool:
     
  3. stedel

    stedel Guest

    OK here's my slant Rick.

    The Fairlight/ProTools Controller, was I think a wasted opportunity for my needs. No high-end Focusrite mic pre's not enough analog aux send & returns.
    The ergonomics of which you speak I apprecaite - a lot namely a cohesive and functional system for both Sound & Video, running off the same platform.

    I was talking to a friend of mine on the phone last night who runs his own Sound and Video studio's in Sydney.

    He knows I'm establishing my own tracking studio's this year, and I asked him what he thought about Fairlight. He goes way back and remembers the first range of sequences and music systems Fairlight brought out.He then says that Fairlight is used more for post-production, and it's audio -sound features are not really considered as robust (my word, I can't remember the term he actually used, but it was comprable)compared to other platforms.

    To me, this doesn't figure. Fairlight uses the same
    QDC technology as it does for its MFX systems - the two integrate as a total system .

    So what gives? An integrated Audio AND Video platform which ROCKS...'s pretty cool ergonomic idea to me.
    How do the Fairlight MFX and Dream series...ROCK?
    for you?.Kind regards
    Stedel.
    :cool:
     
  4. stedel

    stedel Guest

     
  5. Henchman

    Henchman Active Member

    well, what I don't understand how one can state that the audio side is not robust. It's the best sounding, most stable systems I've ever used. And the sound quality definitely ROCKS.

    Mark
     
  6. bette

    bette Guest

    when I look at other forums, where people say for example that cubase or logic or nuendo or digi001 (or what else) ROCK, I think fairlight is far beyond ROCKIN´. It is the most stable, robust and reliable system I know. It´s ergonomic is the best by far and the sound doesn´t allow discussions. I use it at 24 bit 48kHz and I can say: I don´t need 96 kHz (Ups, I don´t need 96 kHz at all, but that´s another topic well discussed in all the audio forums around ;) ). Any suggestions about a stronger term than "it ROCKS?"

    P.S.: I think that ergonomics are the most important thing in designing a DAW. So I bought the most ergonomic DAW. IMO in the future the DAW´s will be bought rather for ergonomics than for functions and features. Soon I think.
     
  7. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Good point. Exactly.

    "THE TRICK"

    This guy is my friend...but he sells equipment - Fairlight...Nope he doesn't sell it. So he's a friend but.....pinch of salt! He is canny, and he knows how not to discredit a product. But he'll still try and "steer" you away. Sow doubt in the mind. You know the deal, you know the spiel.

    The lack of knowledge and discussion "Out There" about Fairlight - as a system that does anything - let alone ROK , is, well...stunning. You'd expect something to counter such widespread and universally recognisedStandard Sales Procedure - as demonstrated by my friend (and not to be too cynical here), known as "THE TRICK"

    SMALL/MID SIZE - QUALITY STUDIOS being eatablished by people like me - not those refered in hushed, revered tones as "The Big Guys" - become confused, angry even, and think "Jeez, if their service back-up is like this..."

    AN example, then I'll shut up.

    1. A couple of weeks ago, my main concern cruising around up here was information about Neve based sound equipment (I like Neve) - the new ProTools HD system -was it any good? And a Topic I posted:
    "What Do Australian's Know About Sound?"
    after an article written by Rick O'Neil in issue 18 of my current favourite Audio magazine: "Audio Technology" - yes I prefer it to Mix Magazine.Sorry, yes I know I will burn in Hell.

    I came across Christoph's Topic. Something caught my eye. It mentioned ProTools , so I stopped, pulled into the Fairlight Forum and had a read.
    The result:
    - I discovered a product range I had not seen advertised or discussed much in Mix, Sound On Sound, Computer Music, Future Music etc.

    I had not seen Fairlight discussed much, even here on this Forum or any other Forum.

    People who I respect and admire were over here checking it out. I discovered Fairlight had stuff I could buy into. I checked it out. I know as much as I do. I haven't seen, heard, touched, smelt, or breathed on one of these things, but I am now Moderator here.

    But only because Christoph put "ProTools" in the title of his posted Topic:
    (Dead Link Removed)

    Ironic huh?

    Considering I was going to buy a
    ProTOOLS- HD SYSTEM
    system.

    Maybe Fairlight are not interested in this market -
    so why the hell did they go and manufacture something like The Satellite or the Merlin?

    Best ERGONOMICS around - but nobody knows? And the point of that is?
     
  8. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Oh yeah. Have I ever told you people I like to write? Particularly on stuff I'm interested in, or just plain can't figure out. Just thought I'd tell you if you hadn't noticed. Sorry. But ain't gonna stop. Some posts are short though. Like my first one to Rick here, above. Check it out if you don't believe me.......

    :cool:
     
  9. bette

    bette Guest

    Hey, stedel, pssst! Don´t blame me! Digidesign is starting to print these papers with my face on them :( WANTED dead or alive (better dead). I hope they don´t kill me - should I buy a PT system? Better a bigger one... :D
     
  10. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

     
  11. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

     
  12. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Well that's what I couldn't figure out.I'm a Jaguar
    person myself Rick. Says it on my RO Profile.

    Mega rich Sydney Stockbroker - Rene Rivkin is reported to have described the Experience of driving his new:** -JAGUAR LUXURY SPORTS CAR-** ..as being like -"Sex On Wheel's".

    I'm not about to say what Rene Rifkin said - but the Fairlight stuff does look VERY SEXY to me.
    And I've been trained to recognize these things
    and the potential of.

    Good ergonomics design is fundamental to achieving maximun pleasure, creativity and enjoyment. Not pain.

    Ergonomics may deal with problems like CFS, backstrain, and shin injury or finger loss.So the
    issue of headaches in a Mac or PC based environment shouldn't be new to it.

    Neither should the ability to make and not loose, money.

    posted by Christoph: April 17, 2002 10:48 AM

    P.S.: I think that ergonomics are the most important thing in designing a DAW. So I bought the
    most ergonomic DAW"
    Stedel: :cool:

    "IMO in the future the DAW´s will be bought rather for ergonomics than for functions and features."

    Stedel
    Functions & Features=Depend on Good Ergonomics.
    inc. Precise, Powerful Functions & Features.
    Not too much clutter: a.k.a."Bells & Whistles". What's there must be fast, powerful, sensual and musical to work with and not make you feel as though you've been in a sensory deprivation chamber for 12 hours.

    Christoph"Any suggestions about a stronger term than "it ROCKS?"

    Yes. Step outside Christoph.

    Christoph "I think fairlight is far beyond ROCKIN´."

    Maybe this is a language cultural thing?
    Stronger than "ROCK"? No wonder you can't find a word.

    Let's see if we can establish some common ground.

    20% of the user base here says "Is Too Good For Rock".Or "Far Beyond Rockin'".

    Damn it Christoph, I've got a genuine/fake/leopard skin guitar strap, hung with one mean Genuine Les Paul Guitar, played through either a genuine Marshall or Mesa Boogie amp. VALVES, not transistors. :cool:
     
  13. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Hi Rick.
    I was just "chatting" with Mark Keefer on his Dream
    Systems Topic/post. I thought I'd cut and paste the following (for your information).

    "On Rick's post I talk about the response of a studio owner friend of mine when I told him I was going with Fairlight. If you read it, my brother
    (who as I said has worked in sound recording and broadcasting..what, for 25 years now?) had the opposite reaction.
    When I told him I was going to get a Fairlight system (and he knows his "stuff") he just said
    "hmm, yeah Fairlight".

    Because he & I are brothers, I knew what that meant - I'll translate it for you:
    "I've seen everything - and my friends do soundtracks for Hanna BarBra (is that how you spell it? Bin a long time..) using Pro Tools,(remember you did some recording in their studio's at Crow's Nest in Sydney?) and we the ABC, myself included, were involved with the Olympics.Which used...?
    Cool move brother, can I come and play with it?"

    Kind regards
    stedel
     
  14. knightfly

    knightfly Active Member

    Stedel, I notice that even though at least one poster (don't remember which post, sorry) asked specifically what the Fairlight systems cost. Have you drooled deeply enough to have at least a ballpark figure of cost? Or are you still adding to the mystique by evading? (I wouldn't want to cramp your style, you just never see any prices advertised - maybe they're in Mix, but that was one of the mag's I stopped taking when I finally realized I couldn't afford anything I read about - Well, things change...)

    Anyway, so far everybody is talking like the proverbial yacht salesman - "If you have to ask, you can't afford it..." So, how 'bout it? I can do crass; how much is the ^#$%ing thing?

    BTW, this was NOT, repeat NOT, an intended attack - you've seemed a little sensitive lately, as have others including myself; please rest assured that this is just another example of MY style, which I view as "whatever gets a laugh, makes people happy, or elucidates, not necessarily in that order..."

    All seriousness aside, do you have price figures/capabilities ? I'm at least curious, and a possible convert. Thanks for listening... Steve
     
  15. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Hi Knightfly.
    Good points. I agree, Fairlight do have a slight "yacht mystique" thing happening. I'll track down the American(?) prices for you. I only have the Aust.$...!!! (stop laughing - it used to be worth something!).

    AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS HERE DON'T BE AFRAID!!!!!!!!

    On to your questions…Basic question #1
    (a) The Dream Satellite …41,656.92 AUS
    (b) The Dream station ... 71,051.14 AUS
    (c) The Merlin … 43,229.73 AUS
    (d) The dream console…. 206,614.46 AUS, just for shock value.

    You can adjust these prices by anything between 1/2 and 2/3's for your own area.Plus you may be able
    haggle with their/your distributor - people still say the USA is the best place to shop...but

    Now that you're here....A question for you....

    What is the most effective, efficient, most used form of currency on The Internet?

    It 's a 4 letter word: beginning with "t".

    "t---"

    First person to answer this Q. Correctly HERE:
    (Dead Link Removed)

    Get's a BIG Prize!!!!

    Kind regards
    Thanks for your co-operation.After you've had a go at answering the Question......please, resume your current reason for being on RO. In this case the Fairlight Forum.

    "This is a journey into efficiency"....
    "cat.S./"Moderator:Stedel :) :cool:
     
  16. knightfly

    knightfly Active Member

    Hey, stedel - just got back from the Fairlight site, or "FoulDark Park", whichever - Some really cool lookin' stuff! Other than I want one now, and some other asshole got my winning lottery ticket, the only hint of belly button lint I picked out of the specs sheets is: Absolutely NO mention of 88.2 kHz sample rates! Everything I've read on digital indicates that if you're going to do high sample projects that will end up on CD, you're better off doing them at 88.2 rather than 96k. It's much easier to do an exact 2:1 downsample than 2.176870748:1 (wonder why?) So, if I found that lottery ticket I think my first question to the Dream Team would be "Why no 88.2?" - But hey, if the lotto pot was big enough, it IS really cool looking...

    BTW, I screwed up again and put some stuff over on your City Hall answer place, please don't sic the Cassowaries on me til I restock my supply of grenades... Steve
     
  17. stedel

    stedel Guest

    I'll come to your last paragraph later...maybe after the five years of counselling it's going to take to recover from the shock I got! And what's worse...you're wrong!!!Anyway, nobody's gonna visit
    my post because it's science, based on irrefutable, documented evidence that people are being played like a monkeys uncle. But we're above all that here aren't we everybody?
    In the meantime.
    Have you been able to establish what the American price is. Can you tell me what it is?
    Unlike you NOT every article I've read has mentioned such a critical factor re CD mastering and 88.2. In fact I'm trying to think which ones did emphasise it. ERk. I know this might sound like heresy, but why are you talking about mastering down to CD's anyway? Particularly if you're having trouble with Fairlight being too "expensive"?
    See I'm not establishing a "mastering studio's", no way..far too much money. But I can remain in an analog domain - as much as 96kHz gives me an analog type sound.Doesn't that give you a clue?

    Why not stop wasting your time agonizing over something that can't be done? Namely audiophile quality recordings "In Your Own Studio! For less than $3000!" Do you have a decent mastering studio's near you? You don't have to visit them everyday y'know? Just for the projects that:
    a. Are you're own and you're convinced that you deserve this quality cos people are going to buy it, preserve it, cherish it, look at it -even if is
    only your mum and Mrs Williams down the road, who always used to have a thing for you when you knew her as June.
    b. Clients who (the magic word) pay!

    You're approaching Fairlight from the wrong way
    here I think, and I need some more info re what you actually want to do.
    Step by step.
    BTW, a lot of people have been on my case recently about changing my style, some of them valid, some of them because of...well lets not bring this onto the Fairlight Forum...lets just say I'm dissapointed in City Hall at the moment.But the ones that are valid I'm working on. Now knightfly,
    read my reply here. Don't you think I'm starting to sound like an agony aunt?
    Think about it.I think you're partly to blame.
    And think about this:
    Why do the Satellite & The Merlin come with only basic editing (compared to some). Why is it that most of the Fairlight users here are happy with the sound they're getting? It's not like the ProTools people who are constantly going on about "How do I get a better sound?" or "What's wrong with my sound?" Particularly when they come loaded with stuff that can help "fix" your sound. And if that doesn't work - here's a list of 3rd party manufacturers, who'll have another go at "fixing" your sound.

    Kind regards
    Stedel
     
  18. Henchman

    Henchman Active Member

     
  19. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

    Hey Steve! Funny you should mention that, a friend pointed out the same thing.?? I guess I just missed it, but that's not uncommon for me. (I am at bifocal age, and the Doc wants to ease me into my new script).
    --Rick
     
  20. bette

    bette Guest

    hey stedel, I would never say "it´s too good for rock"! I LOVE ROCK´N ROLL! Since I was playing my NoNameElectricFenderCopyJazzBass in a band with my friends at school. It´s not the only kind of music I love (There´s such a big amount of lovable music around), but I do.
    I only wanted to say what henchman said: "I´m, exstatic" (Mark, you always say what I´m not able to say, thanks). I´m just missing some words in my vocabulary, so I´m trying to say it with the few ones I know.

    ...so what would be bigger than "It ROCKS"?...

    maybe "It STEDELS!??" :D

    BTW I cannot quite understand the discussions here about 88,2kHz and 96kHz. I know studies with blind tests of some AD and DA converters, running at 96, 88,2, 44,1 and 48 kHz. There were some well known engineers and producers participating, and the best sounding converter was (if I remember correctly) a LakePeople one. And it was running at 48kHz. Same thing you can make on EQ´s, Compressors and mixers. I think my Studer D19 (20bit/48kHz) is better sounding than the most cheap 24bit/96kHz stuff on the market. You always loose quality, converting 24bit/any frequency to 16bit/44,1. And the loss from 24bit to 16bit is always bigger than the difference of quality at different frequencies. And as I said, the difference between some gear is even more.
    Some people try to dither, adding NOISE to their fabulous clean sound! Meanwhile a lot of music is heard at mp3 standard! So what´s the problem if you do not produce a 24bit-96kHz-AUDIO-DVD for the golden ears in the HighEnd-Scene?
    The MUSIC we record is important, and of course we try to optimise the sound. But if this optimising becomes more important than the music, there´s some doctor needed.
     

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