Tascam MS-16 & Otari MX70

Discussion in 'Tape Recorders' started by ChrisH, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    OTB, 1176ln
    I have a brand new one of those I am selling as well if you are interested.
    Or simply use plugs.

    I owned the API 2500 and ITB was much better and that would be the only other outboard comp I would get for drums.

    ITB comp plugins and side chain rocks.

    LA2A and 1176 together is imho the best tracking levellers there are. As combos, wow.
    They add a vintage sound that makes you smile.
     
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  2. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    I've had good luck compressing the kick too with a DBX 166xl and the compressor in the eureka channel.
     
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  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I should correct myself by saying, I think there are a bunch of outboard comps the work good for drums. DBX 166 indeed. I used DBX for years live. SPL Transient Designer 4 is another cool processor for drums.

    But, using sidechain plugin processing for bass freq is so cool, I stopped using most outboard comps once I saw the power of sidechain. Anyone here do that? Samplitude has very cool stuff in the regards.
     
  4. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    No not yet man. It's something I want to get into messing around w. I think it's gonna help any dance/hip hop stuff slam more in the future.

    Anything specific in sam I/we should try?
     
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Hey Kyle, from your comment it sounds like you understand what it's about!

    Nothing in particular, other than I use it all the time now.
    It simply helps improve focus on everything imho.

    Love it.
     
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  6. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

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    Yeah, side-chaining is super helpful for a lot of things, I use it often.

    Exactly, it's great for making temporary room in a mix or you can use it for an effect.
    Being able to make it transparent or not makes options nearly endless if you really think about it.
    The character and speed of a compressor still applies of course, which add's even more options.
    I use it mostly for creating temporary space for something so it can cut through and say "hello" for a split second without having to notch that space out for the entirety of the track.
    If the compressor is fast enough you wont even hear it happening (if you don't want to).
     
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  7. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

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    SC is One of the main tools in my mix box. ;)
     
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  8. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

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    Okay, so here's a track I recently mixed.
    Would love everyone's critique on this mix.

     
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  9. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    You have a Pink Floyd feel. Nice. Its a bit muffled sounding but I like your approach a lot. The guitar solo comes in pretty loud, almost sounds like it was chopped like tape splicing.

    Was this tracked and mixed through the Soundcraft?

    I like what you are doing. I'd use some hpf on the vocals. It would help sharpen up the imaging.

    Nice job.
     
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  10. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    Sounds nice man. Good ebb and flow! I'd have to hear on something better than this phone to dig in on anything, super specific. I would love to hear what this sounds like analog summed. If might let things pass within space a little sharper. If no holds barred buget was there cutting it in a Pink Floyd style room and tape/console might bring some more dimension, but even if I had the budget I don't have Alan parsons number lol.
     
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  11. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    This link was on the Dangerous Music site for a while. It sort of illustrates what I meant by wanting to hear this analog summed/captured.

    Article:

    http://www.farmelorecording.com/in-the-press/analog-vs-digital-summing/


    Audio:

    Digital Sum-

    http://www.farmelorecording.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/CartesianDigitalSummed.mp3


    Analog Sum-

    http://www.farmelorecording.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/CartesianAnalogSummed.mp3


    I bring this up not necessarily to re hash that old conversation, rather to suggest that the mix is in general about as good as it can get given all the current parameters, and that something involving gear or massive acoustic improvement would be the only way to get more overall out of it.
     
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  12. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

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    Thank you.
    I get the Pink Floyd reference more than any other reference but I've never been able to pinpoint what it is people are hearing when they say that.
    Sweet! Are you talking specific elements or just the mix?

    Yeah, both experimental and intentional. Hopefully it's not too much..


    No, 100% itb.

    Love this input, keep it coming!
    So the vocals were Hpf but probably should have slid it up more, huh?
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Overall sound. The track itself, also has a PF tone to it.

    too much imho.

    there ya go.

    The mix sounds right on but your imaging is a bit muffled so the side effect is to start thinning out. If you can tighten up the imaging, then you don't have to start thinning. I would go up anther 50hz on the vox, maybe even up 100hz more. Sometimes you can play the the 6, 12, 18, 24 db roll off too.

    To sum up why I suggest this, The vox need to be tighter and I think a bit more hpf will help. Listen to The Wall, then Listen to your Vox. I don't think you need the doubling on it so much as well but its just my taste. I'm a huge Pink Floyd freak. Love Alan Parsons. I'd try and center the vox more. Add a bit of volume to it as well. Its a bit low in volume.

    imho but hopefully helpful.

    same back.
     
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  14. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Personally. I don't think analog summing ever improves the imaging and that is what I would like to hear more of in this track Analog summing warms things up more and smears the transients, but I've never heard analog clear a mix up, better. I thought this was all true before I got into hybrid mixing in a big way, then soon discovered how important the tracking was even more.
    I know people claim hybrid mixing gives better imaging but I never heard this at all. A Bricasti however does, but it does this with space.If the imaging of the mix is bad, then all it will do is improve the acoustic space of bad imaging. Analog summing is no different imho.

    I'm in the camp of, foremost, get it right first during tracking, then it will mix tight ITB. If you want to add some soft glow, OTB summing can help.
     
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  15. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    I can't comment on the imaging since I'm on my phone. I felt the summing could allow for less masking in the frequency range. It's basically to make space without subtractive Eq.

    I also think the vocals backups in particular could use some low cut reguradless.


    As far as the actual production of the vocals, I think the doubling is cool if perhaps more selective with it or subtle.

    These songs illustrate some ideas better than words. Not necessarily ChrisHs songs exact style, but the way there's a life, and a call/response to the vocals effects and textures. Not just swimmyness, the ways they enter and leave within the mix. This isn't just cuz audiokid (chris) brought it up, I had these thoughts when I first heard your tune.

    Sorry for the long intro of the empire vid, I usually listen to the song on Amazon music, and it obviously sounds a little different on vevo. And the major labor tune is an electronic track, but the production effects / technique on the vocals I just things is quite well done.

    Portugal the man- Created




    Empire of the Sun - We are the People



    Major Lazor / MO - Lean On

     
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  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I've just sold both those UA levelers. I wish you would have gotten the LA2A. Its one piece you need imho. Don't give up on those.

    Kyle, I like your new pic!
     
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  17. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

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    The muffled sound is a buildup of 100Hz-ish in the bass and kick. That's a common issue, likely due to monitoring environment. Try listening from different spots in your control room, especially corners.
     
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  18. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

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    Thank everyone for your feedback on the track!

    Oh man! Hope I can find that price when I'm ready! I appreciate you making the offer, sorry I couldn't jump on it quick enough but I'm glad you sold it.


    Update:
    I'm working on my mixing environment as we speak.
    I never took the time to get a relatively flat response with the Event Studio EQ Software and mic that came with my Opals before I sold them for Focal CMS65's.
    I ended up with two of the Studio Eq's so I kept one. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be applicable for others monitors outside of the Opals?

    I added some more dense absorption in this one particular corner of the room that seems to amplify certain frequency's significantly more than the others (the room is not symmetrical) .
    Right now I'm having good results tweaking the HPF and Low Shelf on the actual monitors themselves.

    What do you guys believe first priority is when finding the sweetspot to mix at, the spot where your physically positioned or where the monitors are physically placed? What comes first? I can't seem to wrap my brain around that to come to a conclusion after all these years.
     
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  19. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    Speaker response will dictate their location, and the location of the speakers seats you at the point of the equilateral triangle more or less.

    To be honest rods book is as close to a step by step method I've ever used/seen and even that I found a bit tough to really get a hold of.

    I think it comes down to determining the distance of the speaker from the front wall. The two schools of thought are as close to the wall as possible/soffits or 2-3' away from the front wall. Either scenario calls for a dead/non reflective front wall. In the case where the speakers are placed off the wall a few feet, it's a great opportunity for bass trapping. I like the idea of bass trapping their even at the expense of efficiency of space/material, because what it does it attack the problem at the origin, and it attacks what otherwise would be out of phase low frequencies emanating from the rear of the speaker, off the wall, back thru the phantom center and to yours ears.

    All this occurs before it has a chance to happen with the back wall, because the stereo listing position and speakers are almost always in the front 50% of the room.

    To my mind (wherever it is) it's the low freq equivalent of removing your LCD screen from between the monitors, or going from a console/mixer to open area, between speakers and ears.

    So after the speakers general starting point is determined either up close or a few feet off, the width of them will be determined by whereeveer your starting point position in the room is like 40% back or so. So if your 6feet from the front wall and the speakers are 3 feet off, they should be 3 feet apart. If they're right up on the wall, they'd be 6 feet. that's basically where I'd start testing and then move the speakers around, while testing points around the listening area, and see what combo feels best.

    In my experience the basic dimension based setup seems to get pretty close and the last %15 is just moving things around.

    At Triad moving the desk 1 foot forward made a significant difference. In that case the speakers are a set distance apart and from the listener sitting at the desk, so everything moved together. Although i did widen the speakers too. Normandy had soffits so it was all about aiming them and eqing tastefully. My cousins home studio he just moved them around till he liked them after the innital setup.

    basically the way I see it is if the speakers are in the best place, they'll center you in the best place to hear them, then treat/eq till it's good as it gets. That's at least how I see it.
     
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  20. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

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    This was cool until I tapped out for the night and listened to some records I am familiar with, now the Focals sound significantly different, they sound small now.
     

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