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The "+1" mix

Discussion in 'Recording' started by KenSluiter, May 1, 2002.

  1. KenSluiter

    KenSluiter Guest

    Lately, I have been doing what I refer to a "post" mixing, which happens after the mixing and before the mastering.
    Typically it involves re-balancing stems(inst to vox, or bkgd vox,GTRsolos...).

    On analog, I used to print the stereo mix onto two spare tracks, and if someone wanted to turn something up, I'd just pull up the mix off the 2" tape, and raise the induvidual fader to create a post mix. Worked well, saved me from having to do remixes caused by one element not being mixed right.

    This technique doesn't seem to work as well w/ PT while using an analog console since your taking induvidual tracks from D/A to console mixing them back into A/D in stereo.
    If in the PT mixer, you attempt to create a "+1" mix(essentially your mix w/ 1 track added in on top of mix) the trip through the D/A/D makes the track comb filter. Basically, you have to nudge your stereo mix up 116 samples(using AD-8000) to get it in sync w/ induvidual tracks; and even then, it still comb filters.

    Today,I didn't have a session, so I tried running test tones, and pink noise and music out of my AD-8000 into my console, then back into my AD-8000( basically , the way I route tracks while mixing). Then in PT, I tried slipping the tracks to get them into phase. No luck! I tried 100Hz sine and 10kHz sine to see if it filters on one side of the spectrum differently.

    I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly. Has anyone else tried this? Any luck or work-arounds.
    As it is, my post mixing works very well as long as I print my stems properly, but I'd love to be able to tweak a mix without having to print so many stems. Any ideas?

    Today
     
  2. anonymous

    anonymous Guests

    I can't answer that, but it does point up the advantages of mixing entirely in ProTools. With every parameter automatable and recallable, remixing with vox up +1 is as simple as reopening the mix and adding 1 dB somewhere in the vocal chain.

    I've had clients who want to tweak a song a year later, and working in PT saved my butt. I understand the sonic advantages of using an analog desk, but I try to compensate in other ways.
     
  3. mapostel

    mapostel Guest

    Although I can completely agree with littledog's points, what about this: Try to put a beep/click/digital spike across all tracks. Then you should be able to exactly line up your mix with the originating tracks... Actually, I should try that tomorrow ...

    Cheers
    M.
     
  4. pan

    pan Guest

    So you are adding say the Leadvocal to an existing mix with the Leadvocal already in???
     
  5. KenSluiter

    KenSluiter Guest

    Yeah, a lead vocal, or GTRsolo, or snare drum ,whatever. the "+1" is in reference to the mix "
    +1" other track. Not "+1"db.
     
  6. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    Ya, even if you stayed all dig, the fx (reverb) on the ld vox will become double the original.

    Print these stems separately:
    Instrumental
    Ld's only
    Bgv's only

    Then you can create any combination of up/down the label thinks they want, including TV tracks.

    Cheers!

    p.s. Yes, I'm still alive.
     
  7. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Ahaaa You discovered the digital latency!

    No problem..

    Look at the top of the track at -1000 view..and line them up. Simple as cake. I do this on most mastering projects. As also spoken of..put an absolute tone at the top for 1 frame..use it as a guide. 440hZ will work fine..but if you really want to be critical..go for 14K.

    Some converters will shift phase on you going back from the analog board..watch it and repaste it until correct.

    no problem
     
  8. KenSluiter

    KenSluiter Guest

    I lined them up by eye and ear, but you still can't get them perfectly in phase, if you could, then you'd be able to flip the phase of one track and cancel them out completely, which I wasn't able to do. I took into account plug-in latency( I put the same plug on both tracks I was trying to mix, inverting just one)....I even calibrated the output to the input to get unity gain throughout the A/D/A loop. I did this with I k, 100Hz, and 10kHZ, pink noise and music.

    Obviously w/ a 2 beep one could line up stems w/ near sample accuracy. You would only hear phase cancellation if the same track was in two of the stems. That's essentailly what I'd like to be able to do. Say I want to make a guitar louder; I should be able to pull up the stereo mix along w/ that induvidual guitar track(that is in that mix) within the PT mixer w/o comb filtering the guitar, assuming that I compensated for the D to A to D loop. But this seeingly is not possible.
     
  9. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

    Just wanted to say that I can use this method in a video production, realtiming. For example to take a track of a shaker to help emphasise a transition, or other instruments like more of the acoustic track as a bump, rather than just gain riding the whole piece.
    Great post, opening doors for me.
    Thanks,
    --Rick
     
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