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the annoying bickering

Discussion in 'Recording' started by MindMeld, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. MindMeld

    MindMeld Guest

    it seems like all the moderators and some readers do on this board is bicker about why they are right about their OPINIONS on certain pieces of gear and why certain other people's OPINIONS are invalid.


    Debate is always a good thing, and that type of conversation is what makes a forum a fun place to visit and participate. But when moderators cram their prefrences down people's throats, and then remark on a dissenters expertise, the free ranging debate goes away.

    Mr. foster... i enjoy your comments on this forum from time to time, but your constant advertisements for sebatron is downright annoying. I too have my favorite pieces of gear (AEA r84 ribbon mics and schoeps small diagphragm condensers) and i offer my opinions for those who seek it. But one pre is not appropriate for everyone.

    Some people are just starting out on the long road of recording, some have been doing it for years. Regardless, there are thousands of choices for EVERY range of engineer.

    Let free debate live on and let people have OPINIONS. Remember, engineering is about LISTNING, not always talking. Everyone can learn something from everyone.

    This is the end of my rant. Everything that has a beginning has and end.

    Marshall Simmons
     
  2. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Except for a mobius strip .... which by the way also only has one surface. :D
     
  3. MindMeld

    MindMeld Guest

    do you know if mobius strips have been found in nature, or is it just a man made object?
     
  4. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Marshall,
    (Dead Link Removed)

    Many people ask specifically about pres in the more affordable price range. this is when I mention the Sebatron VMP 4000e .. and the JLM TMP8 as a consideration.

    Many others mention mic pres that are less expensive and not as well built as a consideration.. and I usually try to discourage that line of thinking. I truly do feel those designs are a compromise and a waste of money. If this is what you are referring to, I accept your criticism but I don't think I will be changing my opinions unless it can be demonstrated to me that I am wrong.

    All any manufacturer has to do is send a unit out for me to try. I can be contacted here through the Private Message feature. At worst, I will record some samples and post them as comparisons, saying nothing of my opinion if I hate it. If I like it, I will write a review on the piece and do anything I can to help the manufacturer get some "face time" here. Can you suggest anything more fair and equitable? If so I would be happy to listen..

    [ November 17, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]
     
  5. missilanious

    missilanious Guest

    well how would you learn about something if everyone agrees, the "bickering" usaully gives me the most information because everyone who post believe in their statements and will give you their opinion, and at that you here many different sides of an arguement, and you'll get many perspectives without the "that doeasn't sound good" "that peice sucks" you'll hear exactlly why they think that piece sucks or why its golden. Also you'll find out alot more about the poeple who give you their advice and decide for yourself if they are baised or just talking out their ass. As for Kurt, the reason he likes the sebatrons is that they are a very transparent pre that can be colored if you decide to use the attenuation pads, being a very versitile preamp for a good amount of things, and the price point is cheap (what like $400 a channel). Also he posts audio of different pres in shootouts and teasts so you can decide for yourself. Like for instance when he posted the shootout the sebatron for me was right in the middle of my least to favorite, least favorite was the Millennia in solid stae transformer out mode (if my memory serves me right) and the Speck-5 with the transformer in the best. Which kinda proves that the sebatron is quite transparent, there was nothing i didn't like about it, but i didn't have the color that i like that was inherent to the speck 5, but then again he said it was used in its "trasparent setting".
    One thing i would like you to do is kurt do a test using short wav files showing us how the sebtron sounds at different settings, also I woul really like you to review and test out an Universal Audio 6176 and 2108.
     
  6. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    missilanious;
    WAV files are to difficult for me to upload. I live in a rural area and the phone lines are incapible of DSL.. about 28 bps is the best I can connect at. I would be happy to send you a CDR of any of the comparisons I have done for a buck for the CDr & envelope plus, whatever the shipping costs are.. (a non profit thing for me) ...

    We are currently researching the idea of finding some partners to team up with here at RO to do member online collaborations and perhaps if we get that set up, I may get a satilite dish so I can do DSL.

    I would love to do a review on any of the Universal Audio gear. I am a big fan of their designs and Bill Putnam is a "hero" of mine. I own a pair of Blackface LA 4s and an 1178 already. I think I sent a request to the company a while ago but I have never heard anything back from them. I will try again.

    If anybody wants a review done, please contact the companies and tell them what I am doing and request a review unit. They can contact me here at RO through the PM system.
     
  7. Doublehelix

    Doublehelix Well-Known Member

    The thing that makes this a tough business, is that it is built around an "artform". People get passionate about their art, and so much of how things get evaluated is by sound and feel. These qualities obviously differ from artist to artist.

    I think it is great the Kurt is passionate about what he believes, and I also trust his opinion on most of what he evaluates. That doesn't mean that I agree with *everything* he says, and that is cool and even healthy!!!

    We all can go over the top at times with what we believe, and it can get out of hand sometimes.

    But again, it all comes down to passion...

    I love music, and I love what I do. I want it to be the best that I can give, and give it from my heart and soul.

    I think Kurt feels the same way, and expresses those feelings without sugar-coating it! That doesn't mean I have to agree with his opinions, or his style, but one thing is for sure...you can never doubt his passion! :)

    You go Kurt!
     
  8. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Thanks James,
    I don't mind at all that some don't agree with me.. and I freely admit that I may be guilty of attempting to "enforce" my oppinon once in a while.. sorry 'bout that.

    I do think that it would be very boring if all we did was agree with each other all the time. I learn much from our exchanges here and my take on some things, has changed over the years..

    I came here expecting not to care for Studio Projects mics and I am sure James (DH) remembers some long threads where I ranted and raved against Chinese mic manufacturers. I have changed my mind on this. PMI/ Studio Projects, makes some very nice mics. They are not Neumanns, but then Neumanns aren't Studio Projects mics either. They are unique unto themselves and probably shouldn't be thought of as the same things.. Comparing them side by side, has helped me understand this. I only wish all manufacturers would allow me similar chances to change my mind.
     
  9. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Its the bickering about the bickering about the bickering that pisses me off.

    Its like having three teenage daughters and one phone line......anyone ever have that one?I have and survived with my humour intact.So I personally have little patience with childish flamewars and personal attacks because of differing views of the world in general.Everybody has an opinion as well as that little orifice that we dont talk about.And this makes us...................different...no,try again.................the same.Right.

    And who cares what someone else thinks about this or that or the other thing??!! If someone makes a point that sounds intrigueing then try it out,or listen to the device mentioned.The high-end suggestions are very real in what they are intended to be.ITS MUCH EASIER to get a good sound on great equipment....IT is NOT impossible to get a great sound on intermediate equipment...just a lot harder....For those that have no budget for upper end gear,me included,do the best you can and for Gods sake, learn technique.Without technique and knowledge of the basics, expensive gears' magic will be lost on you anyway.
     
  10. MindMeld

    MindMeld Guest

    This whole thing came from me reading the "dynamic microphone thread." It had the potential to be an excellent thread about techniques and usages of dynamic mics for vocals (i personally use a re20, but will like to try and sm7)

    mr. foster--- i too believe in quality gear over buying the cheep stuff. I spent years saving up for my pair of schoeps, and i couldn't be happier. The one thing that i would ask of you is if you are going to do reviews, post a review of everything that you do. The majority of the trade magazines rave on and on about every piece of gear, and it would be nice to have a completely objective viewpoint. I look at your past reviews and they all are gushingly positive (not saying that those pieces of gear are not worthy of praise) But it seems as if you said, "hey, i tried this gear, i hated it, but you may like it" would show a more unbiased viewpoint, and would give the reader a better understnading of your criterion.

    Perhaps i was just PMSing a bit earlier, but it does seem like there is alot of bickering on this forum... I'm not talking about debate--- thats healthy and a good learning experience. It just seems like there is alot of slandering on both the moderators and the users side.


    The only reason why i'm making a big deal of this is that there is only this forum and gearslutz really worth reading anymore, and i don't want this to turn into an EQ forum


    Thanks for all of your time, and i hope you understnand my viewpoints

    Marshy Marsh
     
  11. Doublehelix

    Doublehelix Well-Known Member

    I don't think any of us want this place to degenerate into some of those "other forums" that have constant flame wars and political editorials and very little real content.

    When I see a thread getting out of hand...I just stop reading it. Stop feeding the trolls!
     
  12. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Marshall,
    Thanks for sharing your point of view and I will consider your comments.

    I do say on open forum when I hate somethings. I have said many times how much I dislike the Drawmer 1960 .. and I regularly moan about how bad Mackie mixers are.. but I am not going to write negative reviews. I get enough flack for my comments on the boards. Unfortunatly, if I were to write negative reviews, I would be cut off in heartbeat from my supply of equipment by the manufacturers. See I get my pieces that I review directly from the manufacturers, not from gear dealers that want a piece slammed or chatted up, or from a publisher that can afford to buy a piece at list price for review. I have to rely on the good will of these manufacturers. The quickest way to piss them off is to slam their products that they sent you at their own time and expense.

    RO is not a deep pocket and cannot supply review pieces for me or anyone else to review like SOS and some other magazines can. I cannot afford to buy every piece I review either. If this were the case I would have written a review on the RNP a long time ago. If all of the 15,000 RO members would like to pay a $1.00 per month user fee to RO, we can do things that way. Please speak out if you all would care to do this. I can assure you Chris would agree to this in a heartbeat.. I wouldn't object either. :D

    If you want to read reviews that say "hey, I tried this gear, I hated it, but you may like it" , Sound on Sound and a few others mostly from England would be where you want to look. They seem to be very accepting of this approach on that side of the pond. This approach is fine, not what we do here at RO but I have no critisizim of it.

    I can say however, that I will not say something is good if it isn't. If you see that I have written a review on a particular piece of gear, you will be safe in assuming, before you read the review, that I liked the piece. I try my best not to ask for things I don't think I would care for.

    I write about the pieces I like because when I am searching out pieces for the review process, I try to get things I think I will enjoy using. I try not to make requests for crappy stuff. I have been very fortunate in that out of all the things I have received to review, I can only think of 1, I have decided I didn't want to write about (no I am not saying what it was).

    I prefer to focus on the more positve things when I have to sit down and pound out 2000 words on a subject. It's hard work writing reports like that ... and to be doing it on a product I don't care for, just makes it drudgery rather than a labor of love. It is for these selfish reasons, more than any other, I don't write negative reviews. There is so much good stuff out there to write about, why focus on things I hate?

    [ November 17, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]
     
  13. Skeetch

    Skeetch Guest

    In not too many years, I'll have two. Does that count?
     
  14. Doublehelix

    Doublehelix Well-Known Member

    I have a 14 YO boy that sends hours a day on the phone...he is as bad as, or worse then a tennaged girl....Grrrrrr.....

    With regard to negative reviews...

    Kurt has nailed it here. Rarely do you see negative reviews on any piece in any publication. It just does not make good business sense to do so. I struggled with this at first many years ago, until I realized that "this is the way of the world".

    If you do not see a review on a product, that is usually the indication that it was not well received!
     
  15. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    On the other hand, I have seen reviews on products that I didn't think were very good.. some that I myself had used. I won't do that however ... if i review something, it's because I liked it .. or I won't say anything at all.
     
  16. Kurt's policy makes sense to me. How's the Great River coming along? David
     
  17. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    David,
    Ahhh The great River MP2NV Mercenary Edition ... a thing of beauty to behold.. It is lovely. Lots of room on the panel between the controls for my fat fingers. It arrived UPS wrapped up in a great shipping package, with foam pieces front back and sides.. if the way this thing is packaged is indicative of Dan Kennedy’s attention to detail in the design and construction department, this is gonna be a hell of a pre amp.

    The mic pre itself is very weighty and feels very solid. I am sure it is stuffed with iron which contributes to its weight. No wall warts here!


    Tonight I get to record with it! We will be doing some electric guitar solos and some background vocals with it.. I can hardly wait.

    BTW David, we are just a few hours south of you. If you ever want to drive down and check out the mic pre collection, please do. We have an extra room and you are welcome to spend the night or weekend.. perhaps we can get Davedog to visit at the same time and have a RO-NW summit.. we can record and compare... bring your UA 2-610 with you! (Do you have a RNP????)
     
  18. Alanfc

    Alanfc Guest

    I would agree that the debate and occasional "bickering " are valuable and usually quite educational.
     
  19. musicalhair

    musicalhair Guest

    I am looking foward to Kurt's review of the Great River, as I'm thinking about checking out the four preamp unit.
     
  20. by

    by Guest

    I used to frequent SOS alot in the past, I was one of those guys with 1000s of posts, most of which were made in the OFF TOPICs area where you'd see posts shuffle in by the second. Then one day, for some reason, I'm unable to access that address from work, as wel as some other addresses (like google groups!) It was a sad day for me, but I found RO and while the pace change was a big shock to me, I noticed there's about %90 less bickering about stuff in general. I have no idea why the "micpre challange" posts was taken down, I was kinda enjoying seeing what sound people most liked (isn't that the thread with the poll asking which was better to them of the two samples?) anyways, blah okay I'm done.
     

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