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To: KurtFoster/RecorderMan [Budget Jazz Mic's]

Discussion in 'Recording' started by Dk0r, Sep 8, 2004.

  1. Dk0r

    Dk0r Guest

    Hey guys,
    Im new to the forums [posting, not reading :) ], and new to recording!
    Id first like to take the chance to thank everyone keeping this forum up and running, This is a great source of information... Ill be making my donation in the near future! As it's well deserved..

    Moving on,.. Ive been playing the piano for about 12 yrs now, still striving to be a jazz pianist and have recently decided to get into the inexpensive hobby of recording :p running a Digi002R [ & will be using a pair of StudioProject C4's on drum overhead's & shure57 on snare, unless advised elsewise.] I have a few questions based on RecorderMan's post on the 'All That Jazz' thread, about mic. recomendations. [ http://recording.org/postlite10053-jazz.html ]

    Im wondering what the cheapest substitues would be for the mic's listed below. I am only setting up to do Live Recordings in small venues, & will be buying disposable equipment, such as ADAT's / MSP5's.
    I am looking to buy USED microphones @ no more than $600 each & want the best bang for the buck,.. like every1 else :D

    1.) Senheiser421 for the KickDrum
    2.) Neumann M149 for StandUp Bass
    Also, what kind of DI box should i use if any?
    3.) Recorderman Also has you using 1 small condensor and one large diaphramed condensor on the grand piano. I know i could spend a fortune here, But whatr your suggestions for my situation
    4.) Only thing R.Man said about Wind was Large diaphramed mic's. Any suggestions on a Tenor Sax & Trumpet.

    Cant thank you guys enough
  2. Dk0r

    Dk0r Guest

    sorry, placed this thread in wrong section-
  3. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    Horns, like sax or clarinet, are usually miced with LD condensers. Much of the sound of these horns emanate from the sound holes, not just the bell, so it's a good thing to have a mic with a larger pickup pattern, like Neumann U87's, U67's etc. An SP C1, C3 or B1 would work in a pinch ...

    Trumpets and Bones emanate most there sound from the bells so a more tightly focused pattern is better. These instruments are usually miced with sd condensers like the AKG 451 . 460 / 480 or the Shure SM81 or the Neumann KM 184, or a sd dynamic (like a SM57).

    For a DI... there are a lot of very nice DI's out there ... some costing as much as +$1000 .... for a good basic DI I go with the Countryman FET 85 box. Straight ahead DI that doesn't load pickups.

    Neumanns are the standard for this kind of recording ... RM points towards the 147/149 LD tube condensers (a nod to vintage offerings from Neumann). The Neumann 47 / 49 and the U67 (all tube types) as well as the AKG C12a and C12's .. (also tube) have been staples for jazz production for years ... so it's likely that any references RM made to LDs are an acknowledgment to these models.

    Two alternatives to the 147 or 149 (on a budget) would be the Studio Projects T3 or the CAD M9 ... the T3 has switchable patterns while the M9 is a fixed pattern mic like both Neumanns. Both will offer similar (tube) characteristics but will not be exactly the same. Neumanns are best but the T3 and the M9 both offer a respectable performance to cost ratio and will provide a "kinda like that" performance.

    For the kick drum the 421 is good good mic in some apps but not my favorite on kicks though .. for jazz I would look for an old AKG D12 or an EV RE 20 or EV PL20. The Audix D6 would work well in this app IMO. Something real "poofy" sounding. You don't want a lot of "tick" or attack on a jazz kick drum.

    For small diaphragm condensers the current standards are the Neumann KM 183, KM 184 and KM185, the AKG 460, 480's and 451's and the Shure SM81.

    If you can afford them, get at least Neumanns, AKG or Shure condenser mics ... There are better like the Scheops, Josephsone etc ... but the Neumann's, Shure's and AKG's are the standard staples.

    If you can't swing that, the Studio Projects line of LD and SD condensers are the only Chinese mics I personally recommend. They are very good for what they cost and if used with reasonable care should last for a long time. If your looking at a great affordable tube mic, the CAD M9 really knocked my socks off! This is a killer tube mic at a very affordable price.
  4. Dk0r

    Dk0r Guest

    thnx for the prompt reply kurt.
    Anyways, ive been running any information i get by everyone i possibly can, as to make the best possible purchase.
    After scimming through your reply i came up with this list.
    [ theres more reading after the list, dont go away quite yet! ]
    - Microphone List-
    1.)CAD M9 [LD] $349

    link 1

    2.) AKG C451B [SD] $399
    link 2

    1.)AUDIX D6 $144
    link 3

    1.)Studio Projects T3 $459
    link 4

    1.)Studio Projects C3 $349
    [ can only find $349 ]

    1.)CountryMan 85 D.I. Box $129
    link 5

    I sent the list to a friend of mine ( and im also running it back through this thread, to make sure i did not make a mistake) who's a resller for these products, along with a link to this thread for him to comment and price match, & he said the following.
    " I wouldn't necessarily recommend a tube mic for piano but, if that's the sound you're after, an MXL V69M would probably be a better choice."
    * 1st off, what does he mean by "that kind of Sound", one might get from using a tube mic on the piano. ?? Could you describe it plz?
    And could you please be specific as to which pair of lowbudget LD mic;s to use on the piano.

    2.) "Most engineers I know mic pianos with large diaphragm condensers of the same kind. This business about using two entirely different mics is news to me but I suppose anything's worth a try!"
    * This statement of his, was based on me using a LD and SD Mic on the piano. I would like to try it, but to be safe, should i just buy a pair of each?

    3.) "Neither the T3 nor the M9 can replace a tube Neumann, but then, you know how it is, nothing really can. ;-) If you want a clearer, more "hi fi" sounding tube mic, get a T3. If you want a smoother, warmer sounding tube mic, get a Studio Projects TB1. If you want a combination of those two qualities, get a V69M"
    * was your suggestion of the CAD m9 for the Bass or the Piano?
    Also, could you please comment on what he said? hehe

    Thanks again kurt! takecare
  5. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    I don't usually use LD or tube mics on pianos so this is a third opinion. So much for clarification, what I will offer, only further clouds the water ..

    I use AKG 451's or sometimes my ATM Pro35X clip ons for piano ... at other times if I want it to be even warmer, I will go to my AKG 460's ... The LD & SD on piano thing is a variation on a theme from Recorderman, ... who BTW, has more hit records under his belt that you friend and myself put together .. so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his advice.

    You should ask him ... he's the one who said it ... I assume he means a warmer / darker/ thicker tone. Most people seem to think that pianos should sound like the samples coming off a Kurzweil or other electric piano. My expierence says most real pianos sound nothing like that .. they are usually much more mellow and have a less bright attack than most of their digital counterparts.

    I had one producer in my studio working on various projects for over a year and I stuggled to find a micing solution for piano that he was happy with. I had a beautiful K. Kwaii, 7 foot grand and this guy wanted to use his digital piano. I miced up my piano using evey mic I had that applied (U87, C24, C12a, 451's 460's) and he was never happy. That's when I took the Pro 35X's, clipped them on to a piece of cardboard and placed them in the Grand. This guy says, "That's it! That's the sound I want! Why didn't you do that first?" go figure ...

    There's a lot to be said about buying mics in pairs ... but if you do this without knowing how they perform under varying conditions and applications, you stand the chance of buying two of something you end up hating. Pencil condensers (sd) are usually bought in pairs. Get a matched pair of the 451's, you won't be sorry you did.

    As far as the MXL (Marshall) mics ... BARF! The ones I have seen/ heard were cheap junky, fall apart or fail CRAP! My advice is to avoid them and (anyone who recommends them) like the plague. Your "friend" probably gets the best profit margin from MXL's. The next thing you know he will be recommending a Behringer mixer for it's excellent mic pres!

    My advice is for you to go to the store and listen for yourself, to the T3, M9 and if you wish the MXLs ... look at how they are built inspect the fit of the different pieces and the heft / robustness/ durability of the construction and listen again. Use your ears and chose which one sounds best to you. My personal favs in this price range are the SP T3 and CAD M9 ... yes., it's not a Neumann and it never will be.. SP caps are closer to AKG LDs than they are to Neumanns.. I would compare both the C3 and the T3 to an AKG C12 / C12a or a 414 than anything else ... which still ain't too bad!!!

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