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Upgrading Studio Monitors

Discussion in 'Monitoring / Headphones' started by Alécio Costa - Brazil, Dec 25, 2002.

  1. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Hi friends!

    a) when do you think is it time to upgrade your monitors? at each 5 years? I am not mentioning here substitution of pieces, like tweeters, conectors, crossoverss and so. I know this question looks weird, because some guys spend lots of years with the same monitors...

    b) what near fields would you guys recommend me? something in the $1000 range would be nice. I want to upgrade from my Monitor Ones. at the "other frying forum" they suggested me the HR824´s, Tannoys (urgh!!!) and ADAMS ( $$$$).

    Hope to hear from you all
    thanks
    Alécio - Brazil
    ;)
     
  2. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    I think concentric Tannoys are nice, I like the big ones, other Tannoys? ehhh,, not as good, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler,KRK, (I like the old 9000's) all come to mind at the moment as good.. I'm sure there's some I missed. Fats
     
  3. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    My Monitors are 27 years old and I recently went through them for calibration (first time) and replaced the tweeters and crossovers.
    I could not be more pleased with the Yamaha NS1000M's

    Look at Dynaudio and KRK's


    The dual concentric tannoys if used may be avalible. I have used the 12's and 15's in other studios, they work very well

    In the old days, the JBL4311 was fantastic..and used for 500 bucks they still are!
     
  4. I still use a pair of Altec monitors from the 70's: model #9844 2x12" w/horn. These continue to ring true with my mixes everywhere, I also check with a pair of Mackie 824's as they'll reveal some of that boom you'll get on a home system real well. Thge Altec's have a very large wide dispersion horn so it works, however these are out of production.
    I think it's not so much a matter of changing monitors, but being comfortable and familiar with what you're using so that your mixes will translate well in as many audio enviroments possibe. This kind of comfort zone with a monitor may take some time/experience/mixes to get to, so why get rid of them once understood.
    The Urie time align monitors were nice as well. The room setup will actually be the firts factor to deal with though; then you'll be able to hear what your monitors really sound like.
     
  5. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    In fact I am very accustomed with my good old cheap Monitor Ones but I wanted more precise low end, not necessarily hyped low end like with the 824´s. What about those "event" and hr624´s?
    Thanks friends!
     
  6. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Event 2020 has a bad crossover point meaning upper mids are not snappy enough and you will have a harsh mix. The 624 has a big rise at 120 meaning not enough punch...makes a smooth mix no dynamics.

    Dynaudio or KRK or used 4311 JBL
     
  7. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    (Bill, !!!!
    We keep telling him over and over.... but he refuses to listen. :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. Pick one. ;)
     
  8. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    FB ...I just spilled beer and the beer can fell in the ashtray on the floor and created a collosal mess.....^#$%.


    All I can say is the equipment got nothing on it and I stirred up miss Maddie in the kaos...

    That is how hard I was laughing at this one.

    Alécio my dear buddy does post and listen to the PSW crowd and even though their is good advice there, the diversity of the traffic and the attempt to sorting the toungue in cheek from the seriousness leads one to become confused at best...(the reason the beer fell to the floor actually)

    Fatman, he is isolated on an Island the size of Gilligans Island with 5 other studios.


    I cannot tell you for sure what to do at this point.

    If he had an old set of 4311's, he would be in heaven.

    I think Alécio's mixes sound fine!

    They just need mastering expertise is all.

    Explaining that a separeate mastering engineer is the key.....well is the key.

    I love Alécio and I respect his work.

    Perhaps he can continue with the Alesis speakers. Many others do.
     
  9. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Thanks Uncle Cedar! I have got the message. I was just into other opinions!

    In fact I have not asked for PSW about this issue...

    Hey Bill.. what the hell is happening down there at your place man? LOL - Beer?

    Thanks for thw words. I imagine I need better tools to manipulate the mastering! LOL


    I want a pair of shrimps!!!!!! Explain Cedar what are these shrimps!!!
    LOL
     
  10. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    PS, the shrimps do kick ass but they do not go below 25hZ. The NS1000M's do a solid 17hZ and no resonance at all. Better tweeters too, and instead of a 4 way, the NS1000M's are a three way. Much more accurate.
     
  11. daif

    daif Guest

    I'm not pissed (means "kinda drunk" in Oz. Not "angry" as in America) but I just fell off my chair laughing...shrimp... :D
    Did you really mean $42,000.00 Bill ?
    No typing error hey ?
    Goddam the price of fibre & resin has gone thru the roof !!
    Have to say I love the "art" tho.
    Thanks for that guys.
    Regards, Tom
     
  12. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Bill, yesterday I went to Lagoa Da Conceição, had lunch with family at that nice restaurant I promised to take you... Lots of shrimps there.. much nicer than this ET stero hi-hi
    LOL
    Much Much cheaper.

    But why doesn´t Yamaha sell these NS1000´s anymore?

    Hugs
    Alécio

    In fact they look mor like Scargot´s than the sea cousin shrimps!!
    :p
     
  13. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    ACB,
    Afterthoughts...I've been thinking about monitors and questions everyone asks about them for a while now. I have come to some new (for me) conclusions. As I have come to see it, there are two ways in which one can approach a speaker / monitor choice. One is the way I have done it, building a "system" comprised of three set of speakers. I switch between all thee sets and when the mix sounds good on all three, I know it's going to translate on to other systems. The other way involves choosing of one set of speakers to work with. Some users can't afford to have a "monitoring system" so they opt for "a" set of monitors. In that situation I would recommend one of these monitors……
    Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Westlake, Genelec, Hafler, KRK. These IMO are very good for stand alone systems. I personally wouldn't want to mix on only a set of The NS 10's or big Tannoys. The thought of doing that is actually a little scary. I know this is contrary to some things I have muttered previously, but hey I can change my mind, sorta, if I have to...... he he Fats


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!
     
  14. I use both my Altecs and HR-824's during mixdown, and I do so this way .. mainly on the Altecs, with quick and or longer checks a/b references between the two .. I trust the Altecs, the 824's keep me relating to "other things" so... I'd agree I'm looking for a 3rd set .. one to compete in that nearfield area that will be a little brother to the Altecs .. but I'll use all 3 in the end.
    When I'm done mxing, I usually stuff a cd of the mic into the computer so I can listen though the not so stunning (on purpose) multimedia speakers (isn't that some term (?) multi-media??!).. at a nice low volume. If I'm drifting away from listening to mix and an enjoying the mix .. I'm very happy. This will not occur if I use the Mackies as the main mix monitors.. the Altecs yes..
     
  15. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    K-sound!

    That would be a winning combo...both extremes and the computer.

    It could work quite well.

    I would not rec. it to a beginner though. Alecio is quite talented and If i could get him into 4311's he would love them. Unfortantly 4311's have NO bass below 40.

    Alecio, the Yamaha NS1000M's were discontinued in 1995 for reasons of expense. They are a very expensive set of speakers costing 800K yen when discontinued. They went on to produce the NS1000X which uses a lighter woofer that is more ridged but it is faster on the bass and cannot go below 30hZ like mine can. The beyrellium dome mids and tweeters are of mass expense and the midrange alone is massive. The crossover has more than 20 parts each and they are just very presicion. The units can be found used for about 1000 US per pair if you are lucky to see them on ebay (they come around) but at 110 pounds each shipping weight, it would cost another 1100 to ship them fed ex to you. Something of that order. Keep your eyes open..you see a pair and can afford it, their is only one real way to set them up and many folks that own them never have done the setup as the old man said to me when I went to Japan.

    Read about NS1000M's here.

    http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/yamahans1000m.html


    http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com/ns1000.htm

    http://www.yamaha.co.jp/product/proaudio/homeenglish/products/speakers/powered/msp_10/interview/interview.htm

    Akira Nakamura "The Yoda of speakers"
     
  16. interesting .. I know where a pair of these are ... what "other" type would you go for .. any of the older JBL 12" combos .. I also have a nice pair of old KLH Model 5's from Atlantic records .. bottom's great .. the highs are a bit off .. I know! KLH's where did that come from?? Right now I use one on either side of the glass for talkback... ah the voice sounds great!
     
  17. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    It is either the NS1000M's or the ATC's (at over 13K ) at this time.

    Having built, I know what it takes and for me to build something, well I have plans that can do really well for 900 (abit some dynamic compression in the 20hZ range..takes big bucks there)

    Their is only one way to use the NS1000M's and I will reveil the secret.

    They Must be on their sides with all drivers at ear level with the tweeters on the inside and mids and tweets above the woofers, with a 11 to 17 degree tow in using them at 1.8meters.

    This gives phase coherency that is accurate to within 5 degrees (unheard of) and inverse square law is fully realized.

    Mine are +/- 0.7dB from 21 hZ to 17K in this confiuration and they absolutely dissapear with immence staging. You honestly cannot hear a single driver. The ears play huge tricks on the eyes.

    It is probably the only speaker built with the least compromises for reproduction of the electrical signal.

    I can throw a 17hZ sine wave into them at 200 watts a channel and make china rattle in my neighbors house 80 feet away.

    Compared to horns they are "bland" because the ear brain thinks what it is most acute to ..until you use NS1000M's by themself in their own room for a year or two.
    I have had modifyed Klipschorns and knew Paul Klipsch personally with many visits. He knows that the NS was the real no compromise speaker and he said it would cost 20 million to produce one pair in the US. He was right.
    Yamaha had in todays money about 60 million in the first set. (total toolup and R&D)
     
  18. So, I guess $400 would be a fair buy? I think I can get them for that or less ... any things I should look for on the NS-1000's as far as variences in production? They seem a bit large for be to throw up as a "nearfield" .. if you check my profile, you can see where I'm at space wise .. the white speakers are the Altecs thanks
    Jim
     
  19. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    They all are good, you don't want them I WANT ANOTHER SET!!!

    Use them on stands (keyboard or collums) at the right corners 10" behind Beside meter bridge) your desk.

    Wonderful speakers.

    Please don't tease me, I will fly up and get them if need be.


    I will buy them if you do not like them.

    Problems.

    Time of 1000hrs of listening to appreciate how they are to be used in mixing /mastering

    Feedback will kill the tweets instantly.

    Got 450 for a new set? and they take 1000 hrs to burn in.

    Dusty Lpads.

    Uncalibrated knobs on L pads, you can shove them on at wrong posistion.

    Shitty terminals on rear. I upgraded to locking bananas. (210$)

    Heavy. Mine are 103.4 LBS each.

    Must be measured angles and distance (to within a MM) IF you are off 5 MM in front back, it is audible.

    They are high presicion.

    Another problem.
    Cost of replacements and they are getting very rare (parts) I was quoted 2100 for a midrange 2 years ago..since then I have found them at the real price (22% of that) the mids weight over 30 LBS shipped.
     
  20. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    wow Bill!!!! My guru!!!!!
    What shall I do to make my cheap Monitors Ones sound better? once you mentioned, the tweeter thing and applying cloth to the......
    anything else?
    thanks
    :p
     

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