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Very strange mic question

Discussion in 'Recording' started by jenifer, Nov 10, 2007.

  1. jenifer

    jenifer Guest

    A great classical guitarist came to our stage for television and needed to be broad casted in 30 mins... usually ill put a pair of AKGs B ck61 or a klauss hyne mod sm69 when i need the best and most accurate sound these are them, there is no color there quiet beyond anything else, a master mic for acoustics!(akg)
    But there not mine.. there the studios and some one was in a different control room with them and i had 2 to 3 mins to come up with a mic before the artist aired ..nothing! a sm58 or a AT871R Cardioid Condenser Boundary Microphone This unidirectional condenser boundary microphone with integral power module is designed for surface-mount applications requiring high-quality sound pickup. It features an extended frequency response and uniform cardioid (120°) polar pattern. i had no surface to set the mic so i clamped a 12 inch by 15 inch glass plate to a mic stand put the mic on that . i can not understand why it sounded not only good but transparent as if nobody had headphones on ! one of the first times i experienced the lack of ... or just what my ears heard in the room was going to print ...now the artist wants to be recorded with this technique is it crazy? i know if it sounds good why not ? but technically is this going to cause problems i cant for see ? i tested phase? (glass plate seperating top and bottom of sound reaching the mic)
     
  2. TVPostSound

    TVPostSound Guest

    If it sounds good, it is!!! If it works, use use it.

    I once taped a Crown PZM to the VO booth window, and it sounded great. Something about a PZM (boundary mic) that seems to sound natural.
     
  3. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    Boundary mics like that are designed to be used in that mannner, Jen. Acrylic, glass...I used a 12"x15" piece of 3/4" maple with a Crown PZM on it to pick up a singer with a ukelele the other evening during an oceanside wedding ceremony. Just threw the rig on the ground and asked her not to step on it. It picked up everything-the surf, the breeze, the uke, her voice-in perfect balance. Those PZMs are mahvolous!
     
  4. jenifer

    jenifer Guest

    I borrowed the mic from work and tried several other methods ,this idea of taping it to glass or wood makes a difference ,i prefer the glass(tempered with rounded corners) the openness of the room reflections seem to work with this method better and i have come to realize that these mics have found there way in side pianos or taped to piano lids . A bit different in my application because the open room sound has the mic feeling a lot like a omni in the head phones, but its focused on the guitar because of the home made stand that sits in front of the guitar player with variable heights up and down so its not on the floor but in front of the guitarist. I just read a article were a engineer was frustrated with Miles Davis in a recording situation because he would not hold still the trumpets bell still he would move up and down side to side so he put Miles in a vocal booth and taped four pzms on the wall? i can only imagine the phase problems! i have come to understand that as any one in the business starts to learn about mic placement its that phase is a art or out of phase ,like problems on drums, on two mics on a guitar etc and hearing it is a art because it becomes suddle as we get better maybe just a few degrees instead of 90 or 40 This is my concern, take a speaker for example( a sound source) put a piece of glass in the middle of the speaker so sound is split top and bottom ..does it matter if the mic is on top of the glass or the bottom (of course i can adjust the mic and its stand with a hundred variables back and forth up and down as with any mic but in this situation the mic sounded best to both the artist and myself close with glass spiting the guitar in half? and what about adding mics to these pzms in a room? surface mics mixed with say a close condenser on the guitar (unfortunately the artist is not here so i have no way to test any thing alone but in theory should i be careful of any rule of thumbs?
     
  5. moonbaby

    moonbaby Mmmmmm Well-Known Member

    Jenifer:
    If you go to the Crown Audio website, you'll find some technical info on the theory and use of a "boundary mic". Phase issues are, by and large, not a problem with them. In addition, there are several posts on this forum regarding their useage. You might run a search using the keywords "PZM" and "boundary". I know that RemyRAD and myself (as well as several others) have discussed their applications on this site.
     
  6. jenifer

    jenifer Guest

    I really enjoy reading what she writes (remy the rad girl ?)( the radsstafirer) she loves those ribbon mics! . im surprised she didnt give me the one two yet ...chuck that mic and get a ribbon..i havent looked at a ribbon the same way after reading her posts and convinced the guys to shell out for one ...man did they start giving me the head lock! What so you can blow on it and well have to shell out for a new one ? but i missed the previous discusions but it seems it lead to the crown web site ...off i go
     
  7. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Guest

    Hi Jennifer! Thank you very much!

    Sorry to hear about your dilemma with the ribbon microphone. Yeah, it's dangerous to let people try to get near them, especially when they go testing, testing, one, two, three and then they blow into the microphone! OMG! So whenever I bring my ribbons out for anything that might involve anybody getting close to them, I always stick on a big foam pop filter. I don't care what anybody says. I dig foam. Both for microphones and birth control.

    Yes, the PZM and boundary microphones are quite similar although I'll take a PZM over a boundary any day. Why? The perceived character and high frequency response are quite a bit different. I got into quite an argument with a German engineer who didn't like the thinner, accentuated false high-end on the PZM. He thought they were unusable because of that. Not me! I like them because of that! I find the boundary microphones actually sound more natural. Or is that neutral? Neutered? Yeah that's it and the reason why I don't like boundary microphones. Interestingly, your low-frequency response is dependent upon the size of the surface on which you mount the PZM/boundary microphone. That's why a 24" x 24" mounting surface is recommended as a minimum. It allows a response down to 100 hertz. Yup, that's right. So mounting it on anything smaller than that basically gives you a microphone with a built-in high pass filter, which is frequently advantageous. Yup, great on the inside of a grand piano lid and full response. On the floor around a drum set, full response. Stuck to a music stand for an announcer, high pass filtered. Fabulous on the walls for audience pickup, full response. And their response pattern is neither Omni nor Uni but is referred to as hemispherical. Which is sort of like half of an Omni or more than a Uni which is also my favorite sushi! Delicious! My favorite sea urchin! So picky and ugly. Sort of like the German engineer I mentioned.

    So I think you really lucked out kiddo. You have found the secret weapon! But because they don't look like other microphones and cannot be used like other microphones, people don't use them much. Their loss. Your gain. A girl needs a little something extra over the boys.

    Interestingly enough, when it comes to ribbon microphones, I have used numerous ones. I have found when combined with either dynamic or condenser/capacitor microphones they are neither in phase nor out of phase. If anything, I have found them to be about 90° different in phase from dynamic or condenser/capacitor microphones. This is probably due to the fact that they are considered "velocity" microphones and not pressure or pressure gradient? I may be incorrect about this? Has anybody else discovered this? I've never heard much about it. I'm not sure that people know what to make of this? It is a different principle of operation in comparison to all the others. And from what I understand, the David Royer built ribbons are nowhere near as sensitive to damage from wind. Another reason why they have become so popular in rock-and-roll recording and on drums and guitar amplifiers. They appear to be hard to kill. Sort of like that big tall Middle Eastern guy that was in charge of the terrorists that we can't seem to find nor kill.

    Anybody interested in making $25 million without making a recording?
    Ms. Remy Ann David
     
  8. jenifer

    jenifer Guest

    IM in ! 25 million is just what i need for ........ a mod by a prickly german who refuse to upgrade my mic because my red focusrite pre was such a piece of crap in his opion and that i would not hear the difference using it ? i was in tears for about a min. Boys can leave the room now! I dont use the foam that much i go with the rubber myself and now that you mentioned it ill try it over our new ribbon, maybe for kick drum? i seriously think it will help when they come in and we are looking at the knobs and you hear that paaat poof then nothing if it happens to me im going to blame it on the german guy and his mod! Of course all mics are different with some principle, different from brand to brand, besides the screen over a audio technia and a different base I have researched the principles, the pzm seams to float above the floor or base of the mic were vibration is captured similar to a phone cartridge and the boundary has the mic attached to the surface pointing upish , i m going to bed tonight wondering if i should invest in a larger plate 10 by 15 is what i was using ... ill do it There was a tape op magazine that in the back Larry wished he could find a mic that sounded the same as what his ears hear in the room instead of the color all great mics have. I knew what he meant and this is the first time i have experienced this. i believe both these types of mics are altered by the surface they rest on for example a pzm confided in a or on a piano lid is sure to sound different from the vibration of the box itself as opposed to being isolated from any contact not very useful for recording a piano but out in a room with a guitarist (classical) is ..high pass filter you say ? now why hasn't any one designed the perfect plate to set the mic on three legs glass ? try and tested glass plate? i have noticed that the wood plate i tried subtracted the openness of the recording like the vibration of the wood competed with the guitar and the glass had more reflection

    now about this sushi did you say you found nemo?
     
  9. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Guest

    Funny, I've heard nothing but good things about the focusrite red preamp. Obviously he had a big opinion as so many other people do here. I've personally never had any experience with that preamp so I guess I'm still a virgin at 52? No wonder I've never had a gold record? I feel a bit red-faced. But is that 16 or 24-bit red-faced? That is the question.

    You go girl!
    Ms. Remy Ann David
     
  10. jenifer

    jenifer Guest

    The Red 1 same pre as the isa 215 i come from the school of the Millennium i have to have no noise regardless of color or karma-tic kado, my work is mostly with solo artists i do a search and destroy with noise from the ground up and our tube sm69 was noisy for me ..power supply was a old dog ..i got a new one from Klaus hes got a good relationship with the boys at Newmann he gets his pick from the warehouse that none of us get to see. i love those akg C 480s! There happen to be a group of us whom wanted to document the communication of elephants with this theory that they stomp with there feet and create exceptional low frequencies that reach miles but gave up because we got nothing from a pair of the old out on the road rhodes then thru suggestion we tried the above mentioned mic (akg) and was able to receive information because of the change of a mic.. and pre amp, the red 1 before that i was handed these degitech vtp-1 tube pre amps and of coarse changing tubes helped but ....not for me .
    In fact my little ribbon girl the m 160 byer we got after reading your posts went thru the paces personally i could not use it (personally) until i tried it with this mic pre. Listen smartie pants i have had the best time looking up the past forums to see what your going to trow at the boys your funny!!! its the third time someone has come in this control room and asked me whats so funny! Staying up late auditing the newer focal monitors !! have you ever tried the AkG 568 b dont fall for that theater crap shes a beauty on any thing read that principle a ribbon girl may just fall for it
     
  11. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Guest

    LMAO! Thank you Jennifer. I've been known to get a little out-of-control and so I try to keep myself in a mellower tone. Otherwise, it's hard to shut me up as most people who know me, know.

    I find your escapades trying to record the extreme low frequencies that elephants create quite fascinating. In that respect, the beautiful Beyer M160, I don't believe would be a good choice for that? For that type of application I would be more inclined to try and utilize something like an industrial reference B. & K. a.k.a. DPA test microphone. Their reference microphones go down to damn near DC and I'm not talking about Capitol Hill. Larson Davis, also makes microphones and capsules that are compatible with the industrial test B. & K. microphones as a friend of mine who works at Aberdeen Proving Ground's has utilized for years. In fact, you can't even really tell the difference between that of a Larson Davis capsule upon a B. & K. microphone body. For those folks would love to have some of the B. & K./DPA microphones, the Larson Davis versions will save you money and deliver what you want from an industrial reference test microphone that is also a great studio microphone.

    I look forward to your further future posts.
    Ms. Remy Ann David
     
  12. jenifer

    jenifer Guest

    Dear Ms. Ann Davis
    There is a lot of work to be done but i will find the time to google your friends mic
    Talking about posts running a stray were busted.. its been hard for me to prove myself amongst the men ,the old ,"woman have better hearing" doest get you off to a good start so your kinda my hero (it gets worse ) i went to school for audio and during that whole time i was just knotting my head 57 58 ? how close is to close to the snare ? oh god !!! did he just whack that mic? someday we will look back at these forums and say look at all those questions? no wonder they invented the all in one gotya ! any more questions? um any one? any one out there not using the instant in the box recording gadjet but before that time for all the students like myself(no longer by several (ok more than several unless several means 5 years ) im going to get you and linda barry to design the one great audio engieears book of questions compounding the best of this forum (plus the extra chapters on why some of its just so ! and some of its ..um so so and some of it is the "the holy grail"( i hate it when i hear that its so looser)....p.s..... oh yes................... ..ill be watching you missy
     

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