Waging War

Discussion in 'Mastering' started by Michael Fossenkemper, Sep 11, 2005.

  1. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    I just had a conversation with an executive at Sony during a mastering session in which he said that the record labels were about to embark on a new copy protection scheme that would severly hinder individuals from coping CD's. I don't have much as far as details, but right now it looks like they are going to focus on PC's and not hassle with Macs.
     
  2. David French

    David French Well-Known Member

    Heh. The last time they tried that it was defeated with a permanent marker.

    The hacker will never be bested.
     
  3. Rider

    Rider Guest

    /sigh

    why wont thye just accept the fact that people are gonna copy music. before you know it all CDs will come with a dongle to plug in your CD player to make it play.
     
  4. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    Now that I'm thinking about it, Why are the labels not going to impliment this for macs? I wonder if itunes has anything to do with it.
     
  5. TotalSonic

    TotalSonic Guest

    I figure it probably has to do with allocation of resources more than any agreement they might have with Apple. I believe over 90% of the machines out there are currently running Windows. Code for each copy protection scheme would need to be ported to each OS - and ports are often very difficult - meaning that they cost time and money. So rather than delay release of their next "scheme" - plus spending a lot of additional cash - I'd figure Sony thinks they can take care of a large share of the "problem" by just addressing PC's initially. Of course this is just conjecture on my part.

    Frankly I think if they spent more time developing and promoting artists that have true enduring merit instead of doing their best to cling to a business plan that the age of quickly streaming digital data is making obsolete the "Big 4"s future outlook would be a lot better.

    Best regards,
    Steve Berson
     
  6. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

    I like how this pirating music has become such an issue with the record labels yet didn't seem to be at all in the 80's when everyone and their brother would copy a tape and give it to friends or just wait for the song to come on the radio and record it from there. I couldn't tell you how many times as a kid i would copy a friends tape or wait for the good songs to come on the radio. I just think its interesting that there never seemed to be an issue then but now all the sudden it is. I do realize the internet makes it easy to steal but hell all you needed 20 years ago was a friend with a tape and tape deck, and like computers who didn't have one. I think the countless years of paying 17-25 bucks for a cd bit the record industry in the ass and their getting a bit of what they deserve, I personally prefer to buy my cd's because I want the highest quality audio possible to compare to and I just like the fact I can say I bought it.
     
  7. CharlesDayton

    CharlesDayton Active Member

    I believe that all music sold on I-tunes is encoded with DRM so that you have a limited # of transfers for a file already. Maybe PCs are just catching up. You can still make as many cassettes as you want, just not digital replicas of the original file.
     
  8. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    Well, he told me that it's not that they can't impliment it on macs, it's just that they're not. They already have it ported, they are just not implimenting it. With all of the majors involved, porting it to mac is just pocket change of one of the mailroom guys.
     
  9. TotalSonic

    TotalSonic Guest

    Interesting - so maybe the hand of Jobs is indeed in behind this??

    ironically -
    As an independent artist also - I've found that one of our best marketing tools for getting people to the gigs and to buy our CD has been making free full length mp3 downloads available.
    But anti-piracy moves has never ever been about protecting the artist - what it's about is protecting profit margins.

    Best regards,
    Steve Berson
     
  10. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Active Member

    The last "Copy Controlled" CD I bought would not play on my IBM P4 XP desktop, my new Dell Latitude 810 XP Pro laptop, my car deck, or my Toshiba DVD player. It would only play on my main system Linn CD player. This is despite the fact that the CD said it would play on all these devices.

    It's said that a lot of the copy protection involves the error correction circuitry and that this circuitry ends up being "maxed out" on most CD players, trying to keep up with the altered coding. This school of thought also says that these CD's generally do not sound as good on a lot of players because they are messing with the red book CD standard.

    In fact, a lot of those CD's arent't technically CD's at all.
     
  11. heathen22

    heathen22 Guest

    About 8 months ago in new scientist it was reported a new type of piracy control may be tested,it was a simple idea I'm not sure if this will be it but,they reported manufactures were going to make disks which were slightly off centre so it would be impossible to be error corrected for a burn copy but good enough to play on most consumer cd players.I doubt that is it (because ripping would probably work fine)but check thier archives.
     
  12. Thomas W. Bethel

    Thomas W. Bethel Well-Known Member

    Anytime you can play a medium you can copy it. It may not be the best copy but if you can see or hear it you can make a copy. What the record companies and movie studios are worried about is the replication of an exact copy of the medium. Today with digital equipment one can take a CD or DVD and make multiple copies of that CD or DVE without playing for the additional copies which is cutting into the companies bottom line.

    Back in the 50's 60's and 70's you could always make a copy of a record or tape or cassette or even off the radio but it was always a second generation copy and you could not clone the original like we can do with the equipment available to us today. The copy sounded darn good but it was still a copy and not an original clone. Now the record companies and movie studios are faced with technology that can basically make anyone a replication center and copies of DVDs and CD that are not produced by the record companies or movie studios are out on the streets around the world before the original media is even a couple of days old. I have seen DVDs offered for sale before the movie opens at our local Cineplex. I have also seen more and more people in movie theaters with tripods and camcorders especially with first run popular shows like Starwars or Spiderman. Our local Cineplex just put up signs saying it was illegal to do so but on the same day I saw the sign I saw a guy recording in the theater I was in.

    We all think that the movie studios and record companies are being overly cautious and have way more money than the lowly consumer but they have to make a profit and they have to stay in business if they are going to survive.

    I think the current prices charged for CDs is ridiculous. They are way too high for the content available. You can purchase a DVD with 8 hours of entertainment on it for $14.99 but a CD with less than an hour on it costs $18.99 at the local Border's store. Does that mean that I will make copies of the CD for all my friends to "get back" at the record companies ....NO it does not. I will however thing seriously about what CDs I purchase and how many I will buy which in turn is HURTING the record companies.

    In the "good old days" there were single records which on could purchase for a reasonable price so if you really liked a song you could go to the local record shop and get a 45 rpm record for less than a dollar or you could purchase the whole album for less than six dollars. That was still a lot of money in those days but you had a choice. Now you purchase a CD with two good songs on it and 14 filler songs and you have to part with a $20 bill. I think the internet is the place that is going to be the salvation of the record companies it will be the place where it is still possible to purchase the single for less than a dollar and have it available immediately. What the record companies want is to somehow FORCE you to purchase the CD if you want to enjoy it and not get your music off someone else's computer. Unfortunately this is not going to work just as all the other copy protecting schemes have not worked for the simple reason that if one person can invent a way to prevent copying another person can figure out a way around the copy protection.

    The best way for the record companies to survive is to make music fun again and to keep the cost of ownership low enough so that the individual person does not have resort to criminal means just to enjoy there music. The other problem today is that most record companies are run by lawyers and they would rather sue than figure out how to sell more music. This is NOT the way it was in the 50's 60's and 70's when the people making the decisions were musicians themselves and knew what it took to please the public at large.

    MTCW
     
  13. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Active Member

    Anybody can walk in off the street and get 1,000 CD's with jewel boxes and four colour artwork done for $999. I have to think the manufacturing cost when you're producing millions of CDs is a lot less than that.

    Where is the $18.99 going? A couple of bucks for the retailer, less than a buck for manufacturing, a pittance for the artist and the rest to... where?

    I know promotion and advertising can cost big money, but there are a lot of artists out there who are not the latest pop icon who get zilch in terms of promotional support from the record companies and their CD's are still expensive.

    I agree, that the way to thwart copying is to make the product inexpensive enough that people will forego the hassle of copying and just buy the product for the convenience and for the artwork, etc. Make a value proposition to the consumer that they cannot ignore. This is the way that business works. As long as the record companies and RIAA keep trying to turn back the clock to preserve old paradigms and business models, the more they will turn off the very consumer who they rely on for their survival. This is just basic.
     
  14. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    but i'm not talking about just copying a whole CD for pirating, It's going to require people to jump through some serious hoops just to mp3 it to a player. To the point of record execs moving over to macs so it won't hinder them. Three that I know have moved over this week.
     
  15. TotalSonic

    TotalSonic Guest

    MS is about to launch the nightmare of 7 different versions of their new OS "Vista" - including "Ultimate" which will offer the buyers "exclusive content". Could they be in cahoots with this also in order to try and sell more copies of their most expensive OS?

    It all seems so X Files if you let you imagination go on this.

    Best regards,
    Steve Berson
     
  16. The Byre

    The Byre Guest

    If you can hear it you can record it. We've been round this copy protection issue a thousand times (and so has Sony) and there is nothing you can do - I wish there was!
     
  17. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

    Of course, you can do it, I can do it. But my dad who bought an ipod and just wants to pop a cd into his computer and load the songs onto his ipod, needs it to be simple. Hell, I get 3 phone calls a week as it is. If I have to walk him through capturing CD's to get around the copy protection....
     
  18. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member


    This is the exclusive point.
     
  19. JoeH

    JoeH Well-Known Member

    I'm about to take the plunge and buy an ipod Nano. They sound great, and they seem worth the cost. BUT, I want to make my own MP3's from my own CDs, and do it all myself. I'm going to have to look into that part, to make sure I can get what I want out of it.

    As for the cost of CDs, I've been saying this for years, and anyone reading this is free to quote me. Sell 'em for $5 each, and their troubles are over. Anyone with a $20 bill on them will reach for four; sales will be back.

    It breaks down like this:

    $1 for the artists & writers, however it breaks down.
    $1 for the managment
    $1 for the label & distro agencies involved
    $1 for the replication & shipping costs
    $1 for the retailers.

    Add tax on for the gov't and everyone gets a piece o'the pie for $5 each.

    What could be simpler?

    Let me tell you, that $15-18 per disc money is going SOMEWHERE, and it's not the bank accounts of the artists. Ask anyone in the biz; NO ONE makes $$$ on CD sales, they make $$$ on live performances.
     
  20. JoeH

    JoeH Well-Known Member

    I'm about to take the plunge and buy an ipod Nano. They sound great, and they seem worth the cost. BUT, I want to make my own MP3's from my own CDs, and do it all myself. I'm going to have to look into that part, to make sure I can get what I want out of it.

    As for the cost of CDs, I've been saying this for years, and anyone reading this is free to quote me. Sell 'em for $5 each, and their troubles are over. Anyone with a $20 bill on them will reach for four; sales will be back.

    It breaks down like this:

    $1 for the artists & writers, however it breaks down.
    $1 for the managment
    $1 for the label & distro agencies involved
    $1 for the replication & shipping costs
    $1 for the retailers.

    Add tax on for the gov't and everyone gets a piece o'the pie for $5 each.

    What could be simpler?

    Let me tell you, that $15-18 per disc money is going SOMEWHERE, and it's not the bank accounts of the artists. Ask anyone in the biz; NO ONE makes $$$ on CD sales, they make $$$ on live performances.
     

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