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Why Digi are dragging their feet & what the new PT w

Discussion in 'Recording' started by anonymous, Nov 12, 2001.

  1. anonymous

    anonymous Guests

    From EQ mag - Re OSX - "the switch is more than a matter of porting code over to the new OS. Digidesign's Pro Tools, for example, doesn't just operate as a software layer on top of the system - it addresses proprietary hardware, too. "OS X 10.1 addresses the hardware, Brown says, "Whereas under OS 9, the apps address the hardware directly. The new audio system is device-class compliant. There's no support for vendor-specific drivers. Our platform revolves around industry standards. TDM is proprietary to Digidesign. We won't be addressing non-standard technologies." Brown points out, however, that developers like Digidesign and others will still be able to write support for their own devices through unique drivers. And though the transition may take some time, things are moving forward. Dave Lebolt, vice president of product strategy at Digidesign, says that users can expect full compatibility in the near (but undetermined) future. "The audio press and our customers all want to know when we'll release an OS X-compatible version of Pro Tools. We have a pretty strict policy that we've adopted over the years of not pre-announcing software features and release dates, and OS X is no exception. As usual, we're hard at work on many new features, and OS X is certainly an important part what we're working on. It's the future of the Macintosh platform, after all."

    ********************************

    I think

    Host/Native OSX
    RTAS all the way, goodbye TDM ???
    USB dongles to prevent software piracy (with multi dongle patch bays needed too)
    96K
    Bettter internal sound
    better sounding / performing plug ins - and you have to BUY THEM ALL AGAIN! (pay for the 96K upgrades that is)
    Digi vetting plug in's, perhaps earning $$ from each sale
    Digi may have to wait for Mac's powerfull enough to come out.
    What to do with the old TDM systems? Can they be integrated into the new PT?

    Anyone else?


    :)
     
  2. stedel

    stedel Guest

    "OK. Lets see if we can wing this one in
    on a more positive spin Biggles"

    Turns to New Pro Tools co beta tester. "Now let us see how the New Pro Tools file management system works."
    "Attempt at landing" - Track two. Take 1.Scene 1.
    Lets see, it should file this as Nov.13.2001.12.33. Ok. Cue Stedel.Tape rolling. 1,2,3,4.
     
  3. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    As for Apple being arrogant, this is not a new thing. Didn't anyone else feel it was a slap in the face when the G3 came out and only had 3 pci slots? "Sorry all you audio and video guys that have been floating our company for the last 8 years, but ^#$% you." And then the G4, "Oh, ok here's ONE more slot. Haha, suckers!" So it doesn't surprise me a bit that they now have this megalomaniacal vision of osx taking control over every process, whether you want it to or not. Digi will continue to follow like lost puppy dog.

    I'm ready for the next level of OS, which would ideally be based around "smart-hardwareâ„¢".
     
  4. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    I have to say that I'm a little concerned. Essentially bypassing the OS and hitting your hardware direct from the software is, I believe, one of the main reasons why PT is so stable. OSX can't be bypassed so unless Apple have done some great work I'll be surprised if an OSX PT rig is as stable as say a OS8.6 PT rig. I would also expect there to be a much bigger hit on the CPU with an OSX setup, depending of course on the speed and quality of OSX's class framework. At a guess, I would say that reliability issues are probably what have been holding up the release of an OSX compatible PT.

    I'm sure TDM will get some improvements, the time slot limit is (reliably) rumoured to be increased. Hopefully they will also upgrade TDM to allow 48bit precision throughout. I can't see the end of TDM for quite a few years yet though. Sure, the future is probably host based but it's a way off yet for the higher end user.

    Greg
     
  5. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Dear Julian. Just heavily edited my first post. Placed the new one up about five minutes ago.
    Left a new short phrase. I might use it as a four bar sample later on. Probably use it triggered by the enhanced midi functions provided in The New Pro Tools.
     
  6. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Tape rolling. Stedel doesn't realise. Is talking to himself."I bet they think Sheesh! Another Stedel track. "Yeah" they'll think, "it looks the same long run as the others." Yup that's right. Just hope they think of me as an Aussie Nanosync, preserving optimum wordlength with a rigorous precision."
    "Er, we're rolling Stedel."
    "Keep it rolling. Did we get me talking to myself?"
    "Yeah"
    "Let's keep it.Maybe try a Jackson Browne type thing. "Running on Stedel".
    "Yeah very funny Stedel. OK. One. two."
    "OK. The New Pro Tools.A Buyers Guide.Features You Would Expect To See on The New High End Professional Studio Version Of Pro Tools . Released this month as Pro Tools SSS."
     
  7. stedel

    stedel Guest

    The New Pro Tools SSS.Beta Test.
    Beta tester 201.
    Report 1:File Management. Check on file management and playback quality.
    Sound File "Nov.13.2001.12.33 pm." Time of check:10.55 Wednesday morning. Australian standard time.Result:No problems.File found. Quick. Easy.

    Report 2.Quality of sound on Buyers Guide rave by Stedel.Excellent.

    Task No 3.Check stability and quality of system playback for entirety of unedited track.Then perform basic edits.

    Ok. here we go. Monitoring via New Pro Tools SSS.
    pressing play...now.

    "What should the New Pro Tools SSS be like?"
    Well, it had better be good. Very good. In all areas.There are two areas I would check pretty early on. Both have equal importance.
    a. Reverb.
    b. Sex. (Ignore this one if you dare. Digi doesn't
    ignore it.Why should you?

    REVERB:Name an absolutely "gorgeous", "stunning" (or whatever technical term you prefer) Reverb plug in that can play either on current Macs (not the new OSX), or the current version of Pro Tools. One that is at least as good as any "recognised as being" High End outboard reverb.From what I hear, they don't exist yet.

    WHY is this important to you in the New Pro Tools
    which , for the purposes of this session, I have call "Pro Tools SSS"

    First realise we are in a different Ball park with the New Pro Tools SSS. Same players, but the stakes are higher. The ante, as they say, has been upped. Rule number One. Quality costs. Yer gonna have to pay. A lot. What are you paying for? What you've always wanted.

    OK. Bets are on Ladies and Gentlemen. Five card stud in the New Pro Tools SSS game.
    List five essential tools any studio must have. Pretend each is a playing card. What sort of deal did they cut you? There's five cards for a winning hand.
    1. The pre-amp card. 2. The compressor card.
    3. The EQ card. 4. The Mixer/Console card.
    5. The reverb card.
    IMHO, if you know anything about the business and art of studio sound recording, mixing, and music, you'll want that number 5 card in your hand.

    So.Let's raise the stakes yourself. Pick the best quality outboard reverb you know. One you'd really like to have. Don't be shy or a spendthrift.

    Now, does the New Pro Tools SSS come with an equivalent, one equally as good? Not an also ran, but even, in some ways, better.
    Now check the new Mac OSX. Apple claims:
    "With the new Mac OSX, professional-level audio isn't an afterthought...The new Core Audio system
    lays a new foundation for the next generation of world-class audio and music applications from innovative developers."
    Apple, fittingly, includes "a Velocity Engine-optimized reverb and sample rate converter."
    Well, how good is this supplied reverb? If it's not good, not only are you paying extra for it, but you're going to have to spend more money getting yourself one that is. And you probably won't even use the Mac's reverb.It might not be compatible with Digi's new system. But if it's no good - who cares?

    What if Pro Tools SSS doesn't come with one? No problems. If the Mac's is no good, then this lack could be an advantage.

    What if Pro Tools SSS comes with one that is as bad, or only marginally better?

    Then you say "Jeez guys. Get it together. Market it as an entry/mid level "must get" plug in.

    Next, think about the power it takes a CPU to run a quality Reverb algorithm.Take another look at the design philosophy behind the current Pro Tools.
    Elegant isn't it? You think such elegance is not capable of matching and out performing anything that Apple, or any one else, can throw at it? Think again.

    You might not use such a quality reverb more than once at the moment. But remember, the stakes are higher with Pro Tools SSS. What if you get a job that's going to do really good things for you? We're talking maybe surround sound here. But definately the Movies. That's right. Hollywood. Movie Stars. Beverley Hills. People that would prefer to work with things that are sexy.Other actors, cars, scripts, locations, fashions, soundtracks.
    And remeber, we're not talking about superficial, surface sexiness/reverb. We're talking deep, penetrating, "gorgeous", "stunning", warm,versatile sexiness/reverb.
    You've heard movie soundtracks? Quality Movie Reverb? hey, they use rock, jazz, hip hop, folk, blues, R & B, soul, funk, metal, electro pop. Think ACDC and Arnie. Wouldn't you like the possibility of something like that in your studio hall of fame? Your personal CV? Your artistic satisfaction? Your bank balance? Too far fetched as a possibilty for you? Then nah. Maybe the New Pro Tools SSS is not for you.

    If it is, then are any of the new Macs, by themselves, capable of providing the power to throw 96kHz and more studio quality reverbs around? I don't think so. So you're gonna have to have something extra aren't you? That's right. It's called an additional DSP card.And a *******
    good one.
    So what would you expect to see in the New pro Tools SSS? The same design philosophy that provides additional, adaptable, fast and efficient, DSP power. On a card. A ******* good one.
    But back to all my talk about sex and the New Pro Tools SSS.Is it real or is it just all iNUENDO?

    Damn. That's possibly the second worst pun, tautology, whatever I've made this week. Stop taping.Let's have a break. We'll come back and Try
    cards 1 and 4. Cue up track 2.Worst Case Scenario. The new Pro Tools SSS as a system, totally wipes the floor with whatever you've got now. Not only that. You want it BAD!
     
  8. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hey Stedel, I don't know how long you've been in the music business, but that's WAY TOO MUCH coffee man! :cool:

    << There's five cards for a winning hand.
    1. The pre-amp card. 2. The compressor card.
    3. The EQ card. 4. The Mixer/Console card.
    5. The reverb card.
    IMHO, if you know anything about the business and art of studio sound recording, mixing, and music, you'll want that number 5 card in your hand. >>

    To be honest card 5 ain't gonna help none if you don't have a mic card! But I'll have a TC6000, a Lex 9600, that wicked Sony DRE777, oh yes and throw in a couple of 480Ls and a 300. In other words I'll just have all four of the most expensive reverb units on the market!! No plugs today thank you.

    Greg
     
  9. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Dear Greg. Ah. The mic-pre. That's covered under card one. For details my next post
    "The New pro Tools SSS -
    Worst Case Scenario:The New Pro Tools As A System Totally Wipes The Floor With Whatever You've Got Now. Not Only That. You Want It BAD!!!"
    Now tell me.(Stedel asks really respectfully and really wanting your opinion). Is there anything you disagree with, or that I should add so far to card no5 - Reverb?
    I'm not, as they say over here in Australia, pissing you off am I?

    Meanwhile I've got to grab another coffee.As far as how long I've been in the business. If you really want to know, check out "Pro Tools And Reverb-Stedel Bounces Back" right here on this very forum!!!
    Kind regards
     
  10. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    I still prefer analog reverb to all of the above.
     
  11. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Member

    Hi Stedel,

    << Is there anything you disagree with ...>>

    Not really, only the level of your coffee consumption! :)

    Greg
     
  12. synergy

    synergy Guest

    "First realise we are in a different Ball park with the New Pro Tools SSS. Same players, but the stakes are higher. The ante, as they say, has been upped. Rule number One. Quality costs. Yer gonna have to pay. A lot. What are you paying for? What you've always wanted."

    according to digi's current pricepolitics, this sounds extremely "promising" :roll: !
    any estimate possible (2times, 4times, 8(!!!) times more costly than mixplus (similar config.)?)

    so the mix(-plusses) for the masses, and digi SSS ($$$?) for the high-end-gan...?

    any hints greatly appreciated!
     
  13. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Originally posted by Greg Malcangi:
    Hi Stedel,

    << Is there anything you disagree with ...>>

    Not really, only the level of your coffee consumption! :)

    Greg

    re coffee. I'm meeting Mike Thorlen for coffee tomorrow morning (well at least it'll be morning where I am) We're meeting at Jeffs post about an old Manley unit he (Jeff) is interested in buying.Drop in if you're in the neighbourhood.It's BYO. Mike's bringing something else for himself rather than coffee.
    Lucky Mike!
    Re the SSS system and card 5. Reverb is BIG in the movies.To understand the New Pro Tools and Julian's original question here, and I know this is going to sound weird, but, it's kinda spooky.I'm serious. I'll post my (as always)humble opinion up here tomorrow.Meanwhile check out the reverb plug in you're using.Does it have any pre sets? Is there a setting for "spooky"? You too Angelo!
     
  14. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    There are some rooms with presets, and some that have to be configured totally manually. In any case, it is possible to "dial in" the "spooky" effect if you have purchased the "Selection and Placement" add-on. You may also want to consider the "Room Treatment", "Outboard EQ", "Outboard Compression" and "Outboard Delay" add-ons for even more flexibility and options.


    ;)
     
  15. ckevperry

    ckevperry Active Member

    I have no clue what this thread is talking about. Someone enlighten me?
     
  16. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Originally posted by Ckevperry:
    I have no clue what this thread is talking about. Someone enlighten me?
    Say someone enlighten me again. Place emphasis on the me, and repeat three to nine times, at different spacing, with diminishing volume. Was that a convincing reverb effect for you? If it was, great! You've saved yerself lot's of money. If you have difficulty getting that effect into pro Tools. and using it across your final mix, then read the first post again.
    kind regards...regards...regards...
     
  17. stedel

    stedel Guest

    And if that doesn't help, look at some of the issues with the current Pro Tools, the speculation that people are IMHO having to do, and then have a go at extracting some of the implications of Apples new operating system - particularly as stated in Apple's own promotional literature around at the moment.As for reverb? Well that's a personal issue of mine at the moment, but Apple maintain they throw in a professional standard, quality software reverb budled with their new operating system.An important issue for me is just how broad (and low) does the definition of professional quality go here.
    There is also the fact that the two systems use a different math to operate on sound. Digi uses 48bit fixed point. Apple uses 32 floating point. Apple have done this for a while now. It's just that (again IMHO) with OSX, and Apple's declared strategy, the issues at least appear to be a bit more critical for Pro Tools users, and willbe's (like me) who are faced with either purchasing a new Pro Tools rig from the ground up (not cheap),
    wondering where the hell 96kHz fits into the scheme of things, possible extensions of their current systems (expensive) and just how many minutes can you future proof a system (expensive). Also, let's not forget, the issue is about the quality of the sound that any of this stuff is currently, and will be producing.
    Anyway, that's MHO, but I'm having coffe, with mikethornton, who's having a smoke, so, whatever.
    "clouds in my coffee"
     
  18. stedel

    stedel Guest

    OK. I admit it. I thought I was on one of my reverb posts. Sorry Julian. I told you I was getting dizzy.Ang1970 read Julian's original question.I think it's about why no news from Digi etc. But as you've already seen, I could be wrong. How embarrasing.
    I'll just go and sit quietly over here for a while.
     
  19. Ang1970

    Ang1970 Well-Known Member

    LOL... I already did, stedel... scroll up... :)

    The two topics are not totally unrelated, IMO. For me, as long as I have great sounding converters and clocks, I can get my analog reverb going without complication. These are two things that don't come with a core system, they have to be purchased separately. The new mac thing doesn't help matters. Makes it worse, actually. Because digi will now have to spend even more time building extensions and crap to get their stuff just to work, instead of focusing on getting it to sound better. And that doesn't help my reverb sound any better.

    Ok, it was a stretch. I tried. hehe
     
  20. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Hmm. Since I was sitting quietly for a while back there, I've been thinking........
     

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