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audio Why does the track sound different after bounce

Discussion in 'Fix This MIX!' started by Smashh, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. Smashh

    Smashh Active Member

    I was gonna ask you guys if the drums on this track sound as if they sit in a
    believable space . I tracked the cymbals first then the snare/tom on its own track.
    I bounced the track and noticed the bass just took off ,way more than when it was in the session.
    Why is this so ,and do you have the same issue after bouncing , if you do bounce ?


    View: https://soundcloud.com/musicmanash/drum-test
     
  2. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

    "Bouncing" is a process that is used if you have a track-limited step such as a tape machine in your workflow. The term is also used loosely in computer-based processing to indicate a block of tracks with attendant effects is to be printed and treated as an entity in subsequent processing, similar to a group. I'm guessing the tape stage does not apply to you, so could you give us more detail on your workflow?

    It's hard to comment on what might have happened to the bass in your recording without hearing the mix prior to this stage. As it stands, the bass is eminently controllable using a little EQ, but maybe your question is more along the lines as to why should you have to do this. One thing to check is that the export levels are in the same ratios as the monitoring levels. It's easy to miss this on something like a parallel effect track that was not present as one of the raw tracks.

    I have more concern over your tracking of the drum kit. The snare does not seem to slot into in the groove that the rest of the band are doing a great job of holding together, and the cymbals are a bit brash for the music style, at least to my ears.
     
  3. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    Not sure I follow you. As Bos said tell us more about your workflow
     
  4. Smashh

    Smashh Active Member

    I listened to the track on monitors prior to bouncing in pro tools , the bass was big but nowhere near as big as it is after bouncing .
    There was some bass going to aux with reverbs and maybe thats where its changed.
    So after bouncing I listened to the wave file on the same monitors and it is not exactly the same sound .

    Using pro tools LE11 , and powr dither plug in .
    The pow dither has 3 types . 1, 2 and 3 . Does anyone else use this and what is the difference between them ?
    I dont export the files, I just go to bounce routine.

    All tracks were done one at a time.

    The drums were recorded in 2 passes. first pass was kick snare and tom. 2nd was hats and crashes.
    Firstly because at the time I didnt know how to get the hats out of the snare track ( since learnt how to use the gate and set the side chain to appropriate freqs ) .
    And secondly because I don't practice drumming so I thought it would be easer with a fairly consistent result, albeit very restrained .
    Then Im attempting / experimenting with revrbs on aux to try n make it sound like a bigger space ( needing more verb on drums to my ears now. )

    Maybe I will re track the drums and use the AKG 414 that we got recently. Because I only have the 1x 414 I think I would use it centre 4 or 5 feet out from kit .
    What do you guys reckon , other mice are 2 x 57s and 2 x 58s , also nt5 pair ( that is where the brash is I think.

    Only have 1 channel strip here , mono AdL700. What to use it on when tracking the kit ?
    The kick is trigger pad , everything else is real .

    Buying anything else at the mo is a no go ....lol

    Need to find a nice workflow for recording the kit , so Im ready for a project we are doing with some friends next year.
     
  5. paulears

    paulears Well-Known Member

    You sound like you are not just trying to run, but run fast, before you walk. Some of your language we're struggling with - I personally still can't quite get a grip on what you mean when you say bounce? I've never had any luck recording drums in two passes - just sounds false, and gates with side chain is a valid technique, ONCE you can record decent drums without them. Some spill into the hats is inevitable, but usually mic technique manages this quite well, and gating is a kind of problem solver, rather than routine action. Getting to know a mics nulls and lobes works far better for achieving separation than just pointing and hoping. With a 414, I'd have it as an overhead and use the remaining 57s and 8s for the rest. Once you have the tracks down, you can start the treatment with effects. The bounce thing has me beaten - if you have protools, can't you just record? Are you trying to convert the recorded file into another format for some reason? Maybe it's me, but this sounds a fairly simply process you are doing, and it shouldn't be complicated? What exactly are you trying to do? Unless you are changing the file somehow, it should sound the same - if for some reason you are changing the format, then it will sound different- that's how it is. The Bounce to Disc function Protools has normally just dumps the mix to a stereo file - used at the end, and should sound the same. If this is what you mean, then something else may be routed to the same output? What, I can't say.
     
  6. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    Concerning the bass that is louder ; it might sound silly but do you play the bounced file in PT again or in another player (media player or others)
    I ask because many audio player have enhancing plug-insand effects that can change the sonics of your mix.
     
  7. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    Yes the 414 can make a nice room mic, IF the room sound good...
    ''2 x 57s and 2 x 58s , also nt5 pair'' : what do you use on the bass drum ? any way, sm57 on snare and the other SM on toms the nt5 as overhead is a good plan but you need to try a few placement options..
     
  8. Smashh

    Smashh Active Member

    Sorry about the lingo in the last post , Ill try to make it more concise this time :)

    In pro tools, under the file tab , there is an option 'bounce to '. That's what I use to render a wave file of the session .

    I listen to the rendered wave file using the default player on the i mac ( which has no eq settings ) , back through the studio live desk .


    I will experiment today with mic placement on close mics and the 414 distance from the kit, as the room is not the best.

    The kick drum is a pad /beater connected to a drum brain , so I don't have to mic that.
     
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    Exactly.

    to add,
    Sounds like different rooms all mashed together too. Multiple reverbs. After owning a few Bricasti's, it made me realize how wrong reverb can sound.
     
  10. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

    It depends on what you are after, here. For a more modern sound, I'd say it needs some work. On the other hand, if you are looking at copping a more retro blues vibe like this:


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXsusJ787sU


    I think you are pretty close if you'd pull the snare back into the mix, and consider giving all the instruments the same "space" in terms of using just one verb.
     
  11. Smashh

    Smashh Active Member

    I set up the kit and used the nt5 s ohs , 414 about 4 feet out front, and 57 on snare top , 58s on toms
    There is no reverb plug ins (y)
    The only eq ing is a hp filter on the snare 57 at about 1 k . That boing on the snare is almost annoying when listening without other instruments.
    The snare is a gretch catalina birch. I cant tame the boing as I would like.
    Im thinking that it will have to be tuned in for key for each song so its not so noticeable.?


    Actually early on , about the 4th 5th hit on the snare it sounds better.
    That must be the sweet spot :sneaky:
    View: https://soundcloud.com/musicmanash/mics_onkit
     
  12. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    What are you using for reverb on the sax?
     
  13. Smashh

    Smashh Active Member

    I think it was the sony oxford reverb. I used a demo of it and printed it to a track next door to the original.
    I liked the sound of that verb but it was not right for my pocket .
     
  14. audiokid

    audiokid Staff

    I'm still on the first example, I liked the reverb but maybe too long and too different from the rest of the music . Other than the snare being a bit loud, for this style of music I like a common reverb that glues all the tracks like it was performed together. The snare as an example, sounds out of place to the Sax on the mere fact of the reverb not sharing the same emulated space.
     
  15. paulears

    paulears Well-Known Member

    The ring on the snare doesn't bother me at all - it's low enough to be masked by the rest - in fact often the rest of the kit masks it, with just the occasional exposed place. The low toms need damping down a tad for my taste, having a bit of a booooooom. Sounds fine - I'd use it! I've never been a fan of adjusting a snare's sound for different songs, unless the drummer does it as part of his sound. Decent snares don't like being messed with! You might just find a position where a touch of loo roll and gaffer will just tame it out, if the drummer is happy with this kind of thing.
     
  16. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

    Drums sound good. onbviously whatever sounds good is good, but just curious about the hpf being all the way up at 1k? Jw what's getting in there you don't like, and if maybe there's a solution that gets more to the root of it, like perhaps tuning, or some blankets, or some duct tape. Especially w minimal bleed from the kick pad.
     
  17. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    Obviously, the best sounds you are gonna get with snares and toms is when you hit them in the center. Some make and models will sound good when hit off center a bit but the OK distance will vary with the quality of the instrument and the tunning. Yes tunning ! (so many drummers have no clue how to tune their drums. but in this case they don't sound so bad) ;)
     
  18. Smashh

    Smashh Active Member

    Yeah the tissue and duct tape has helped , I did another run and its not so bad this time .
     
  19. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

    Hmmm... as a drummer, I can honestly say that I wouldn't let anyone near my Yammies with any tape of any kind, and while you're at it, just go ahead and put that tissue paper down, too. Now, back up slowly... ;)

    If the drums are set up in a decent sounding room, are properly tuned, have fresh heads, are hit the right way by a drummer who knows how to play, and EQ'd by someone who knows what they are doing, you shouldn't have to duct tape anything.

    My two pesos. :coffee:

    d.
     
  20. pcrecord

    pcrecord Don't you want the best recording like I do ? Well-Known Member

    The use of mufflers always unveil those who don't know how to tune. In a bad room or on stage I'll sometime use some moongel, but it is exceptionnal. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/drums-percussion/rtom-moongel-percussion-dampening-gels

    There is a few tools to help tunning, apps like : http://www.drumtunepro.com/

    But a good tunning starts with fresh drum heads, well sitted overnight.
    That reminds me that mine are very well overdue.. lol ;)
     
    kmetal and Kurt Foster like this.

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