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Why I keep bitching about HR

Discussion in 'Recording' started by hargerst, Apr 4, 2001.

  1. hargerst

    hargerst Distinguished Member

    Originally posted by Lennart Regebro:
    Originally posted by hargerst:
    So for me, it's not about HR vs RO

    Good. I don't know why you constantly bring HR into the discussion then.
    Lennart, the reason I keep bringing up HR is because of posts like the one I just saw in "The Rack" forum from dbx's Tom Cram:

    O.K. folks are you really comparing an RNC to Summit Audio TLA-100A? I love the RNC and all, but I think you guys are hypetyping.

    To really answer the question;

    It's a matter of features, sound, and flexibility. The RNC is a good compressor but it lacks quite a few features that would make it a pro compressor. It is too slow for a lot of program material, it doesn't allow for control over a lot of the compressor functions. it has VERY limited metering, it has no side chain, The patching is very limited, etc.
    Too slow? 0.2 milliseconds is too slow? What the ^#$% is fast then?

    Lack of control? It has threshold, ratio, attack, release, and gain. What's missing?

    No sidechain? What the hell does the "sidechain" jack on the back of the RNC do then?

    Limited metering?

    My dbx 166 has 8 gain reduction leds, labeled: 1,2,4,8,10,15,20,and 30.

    My RNC also has 8 gain reduction leds, labeled: 0,2,4,6,8,12,16, and 20.

    The RNC with 6 dB of compression is still flat out to around 200kHz, and the noise sits well below -125 dB. The THD is almost non-existent. The RNC doesn't allow for dual mono, but that's about it.

    And Tom's last comment about people not trading in their 1176s, LA-2As, 160s, etc. on an RNC is very true - but totally misleading. Every compressor Tom Cram named "colors" the sound "dramatically", which makes them useful for "certain" program material. What other compressors on the market today can you name that will match the transparency of the RNC (and let's assume that you can spend up to $1,500)?

    It's exactly that kind of misinformation that keeps me from joing in at HR.

    Sorry about the rant - I'll shut up now. :mad:
     
  2. MISTERQCUE

    MISTERQCUE Guest

    I luv ya' too Harvey!
    Harvey,with your credentials why worry about what a particular indivdual states is his opinion. I own a RNC,various Behringer comps,
    a Presonus and the "dreaded" 3630. I base my purchases on price and performance. Some-1 can provide me with advice as to what direction in gear-purchase,performance
    operation etc,but in the final analysis,it's up to me or that individual to gather as much information on a product as 1 can,and if
    the option is available,audition said product.It's like if a person tells you "2+2=5" and even though you may not know the answer,it's up to you to determine if that equation is correct and if not,research,learn and gather sufficient evidence that it is incorrect.
    You will always see a thread/s at music forums where it starts with "Please recommend
    a good mic for under $200","Which compressor
    should I buy","What's the best mixer for 16 tracks recording" etc,etc,etc! A person starting out should read up and learn as much as possible,determine what are their recording goals and if possible,audition as many pieces of recording gear as possible.
    Here in NYC,I'm known as "Uh-Oh here comes
    Mr.Q (the question guy) or the pain-in-the ass,as though I'm a dedicated gear-slut/junkie,I still request that gear be tested and auditioned. From an XLR cable to a
    monitors. N-E way,I'm prob'ly tellin' you things you already know,but just felt the need to say it again.
    Peace
    Mr.Q
     
  3. hargerst

    hargerst Distinguished Member

    Originally posted by MISTERQCUE:
    I luv ya' too Harvey!
    Harvey,with your credentials why worry about what a particular indivdual states is his opinion.
    Peace
    Mr.Q
    Mainly because Tom Cram is from dbx and his statement shows a wild disregard for the facts - most of his statements about the RNC are wrong. Tom has "expert status" because of his position at dbx, and while I recognize that most of this is "his" opinion, it will still influence a lot of new people that may pass on the RNC in favor of a 3630 (for it's "better metering".

    Again I apologize for the rant (I've been doing a new band every day for the last week for a local compilation, so I'm a bit testy these days).
     
  4. regebro

    regebro Guest

    yeah, I wondered about that too, I knew it had a sidechain, but I couldn't be bothered to check up the facts. But now you betcha a "Sorry, but your dead wrong" post is coming up. :)

    Btw, I wondered why you brought up HR in a discussion about RO, all the time. If you don't like HR, thats fine by me. But even if HR sucks that doesn't mean RO should suck too. :)
     
  5. Tom Cram

    Tom Cram Active Member

    Hello I'm the guy who posted the "wild disregard of the facts" post about the RNC. I stand behind my post except for the part about the sidechain, I checked the back of mine, it has a sidechain...oops (I'll correct that). Now, the other stuff about the RNC;

    No auto, no contour, no dual mono, no switchable metering, no array of in/out options.

    I would have made this same post on this board or any other. The other posters were comparing the RNC to comps that are 10 times the price, I'm sorry but that is just not right.

    Taking my post out of context is also not right. :mad:

    I don't think that people are going to buy the 3630 because it has better metering. But I hope people will stop thinking an RNC has the same features as a 160sl.

    Additionally, why would anyone in their right mind pass on an RNC? It's the best bang for the buck that I know of. I'm planning on getting another and one of those Funk Logic Chevy thingamabobs.
     
  6. hargerst

    hargerst Distinguished Member

    Originally posted by Cram:
    Hello I'm the guy who posted the "wild disregard of the facts" post about the RNC. I stand behind my post except for the part about the sidechain, I checked the back of mine, it has a sidechain...oops (I'll correct that). Now, the other stuff about the RNC;

    No auto, no contour, no dual mono, no switchable metering, no array of in/out options.

    I would have made this same post on this board or any other. The other posters were comparing the RNC to comps that are 10 times the price, I'm sorry but that is just not right.

    Taking my post out of context is also not right. :mad:

    I don't think that people are going to buy the 3630 because it has better metering. But I hope people will stop thinking an RNC has the same features as a 160sl.

    Additionally, why would anyone in their right mind pass on an RNC? It's the best bang for the buck that I know of. I'm planning on getting another and one of those Funk Logic Chevy thingamabobs.
    Tom, as I said in other posts, I was in a shitty mood, so I apologize for the strong wording. You didn't mention the attack issue I brought up (0.2 milliseconds isn't fast enough?), but aside from that, my 3 dbx 166s (which I love and still use a lot for a darker flavor), don't have "auto, contour, switchable metering, or an array of in/out options".

    As far as comparing it to compressors at 10 times the price, in terms of VERY neutral wide band compression, it's a fair comparison, in my opinion. If you've thrown it on a test bench (as I did), you already know the results are spectacular, and it beats its published specs by a wide margin. That's the "pro" part for me. The 160 and the other comps you mentioned have a particular sound - the RNC does not.

    I know you don't know me that well, but trust me on this one point: I am the "king of cheap". If there's a bargain to be sniffed out, I'll find it (like the two dbx 242 5 band parametric EQs I have, or my two dbx 1531 graphics, or my dbx sub synth, to mention a few sitting in my rack).

    I guess we'll hafta disagree on whether it's a "pro" product (although I know Steve Albini has some in his studio, as do some other "pros").

    But I didn't mean to slag you personally. I read all your posts on HR and always find them interesting, factual, and informative. I just took exception to this one.
     
  7. Tom Cram

    Tom Cram Active Member

    It's cool, I was pissed for about 10 seconds, then I realized it was my fault for kicking the wasp's nest. I'll probably run into you at some AES show in the future, I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about gear. :D
     
  8. hargerst

    hargerst Distinguished Member

    Tom,

    Make it a Coca Cola and you got a deal. :)
     
  9. MISTERQCUE

    MISTERQCUE Guest

    Hey!!!!!! What about me!!?? I'm partial to
    Vanilla Shakes,Heniekens or Absolut Vodka!!
    1 last thing. For it's price($175 @ Sam Ash)
    the RNC provides some of the smoothest and transparent comping in that range. Absolutely
    no coloring or "breathing".
    Just my 1 1/2 cents worth!
     
  10. anonymous

    anonymous Guests

    Originally posted by Cram:

    No auto, no contour, no dual mono, no switchable metering, no array of in/out options.


    "Auto"? Like on a 165A kinda 'Auto'? All I can say to that is thank god!!

    "Contour"? C'est le contour? Now I know I'm kinda of a new guy at this $*^t...but do you think you could explain to me in 25 words or less what the ^#$% is a 'contour'?

    Plenty of dual mono...just not out of one unit ;) No "array of in/out options?

    What options do you need? There is 'in' there is 'bypass'...that's all the options I've ever needed.

    I would have made this same post on this board or any other. The other posters were comparing the RNC to comps that are 10 times the price, I'm sorry but that is just not right.

    I have found the RNC to be comparable to units 10 times the price...in fact the TLA-100 is an excellent piece with which to compare the RNC. I have found the RNC to be clearer and more flexible than the most recent issues of the TLA-100. I've found it clearer than alot of units costing more than 10 times as much. Given the option of a Millennia TCL-2 or an RNC...I'll grab the RNC damn near every time, thank you. As for "too slow for program compression"...it's faster than most, and frankly, unless you're doing 'limiting', like in a broadcast application, (which the RNC doesn't do...so it would be the wrong tool for the job at the best of times) you don't necessarily want anything faster than .2ms for a grab. Yeah, I know that removing the front end of a tone has been a DBX hallmark for a couple decades now...but really...who in their right mind would ever even remotely consider a DBX unit for program work? Why not just take the piece of music out to the backyard and shoot it in the head...it's faster and easier that way.

    I don't think that people are going to buy the 3630 because it has better metering. But I hope people will stop thinking an RNC has the same features as a 160sl.

    Application, application, application. The 160sl is the blue one that's supposed to be 2 old "160-VU"s in a 2 RU box right? That's an awesome unit, for a little gish on the kick and snare...other than that, it has that trademark DBX graininess...so you're right, confusing the two units would be a bad thing as the RNC sounds clearer, though lacks the meter switching functions (and doesn't sound nearly as good on kick/snare/bass...but a world better on like vocals/room/instruments--IMHO)

    Additionally, why would anyone in their right mind pass on an RNC? It's the best bang for the buck that I know of. I'm planning on getting another and one of those Funk Logic Chevy thingamabobs.

    I've gotta know...did you go for the "RN-Chevy", or the "RN-Chevy-II"?
     
  11. Tom Cram

    Tom Cram Active Member

    Man, in this debate everybody keeps forgetting that I dig my RNC. Oh well.

    Contour is just a built in side chain to de-emphasize bass frequencies. Say you are compressing broadband material and your kick is just creaming the highs. Contour de-emphasizes the lows in the VCA detector circuit, It's cool.

    Auto like on the 1066 Auto.

    I'm totally with you, Application, application, application. I've got an old AudioLogic compressor that is a complete and total piece of $*^t, except on distorted guitars. I think about getting rid of it now and then, but I figure that for the 30 bucks I could get out of it, it's worth it for that one trick. I wouldn't think of using an LA-2A on say...oboe. Actually now that I've thought about it that might be pretty cool.

    Anyway, I'm talking about what I feel are some missing features, I didn't say anybody's girlfriend was ugly.

    I'm probably gonna go for the RN Chevy. I like the look, and the funky descriptions.
     
  12. MPlancke

    MPlancke Member

    Originally posted by hargerst:
    Mainly because Tom Cram is from dbx and his statement shows a wild disregard for the facts - most of his statements about the RNC are wrong. Tom has "expert status" because of his position at dbx, and while I recognize that most of this is "his" opinion, it will still influence a lot of new people that may pass on the RNC in favor of a 3630 (for it's "better metering".


    Limited metering hasn't stop anyone from using a LA2a or an 1176. In fact I could use most compressors without any metering what so ever. Use your ears man... <g> Metering does give you visual feedback for what is happening and is important of course, but what more do you need in the metering dept?

    Mark Plancke
     
  13. MPlancke

    MPlancke Member

    Originally posted by Cram:

    No auto, no contour, no dual mono, no switchable metering, no array of in/out options.


    Warning: Personal opinion follows, as always YMMV.

    Well, it certainly sounds better than any DBX product in it's price range. Oooppsss, there are no DBX products in it's price range are there? How about it sounds better than any DBX compressor for twice or three times the price. What the ^#$% is contour? Is that something that you can do with a side chain and an eq maybe? I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Supernice mode is an automatic mode. Of course "arrays of in and outs" would raise the price and who the hell needs that stuff anyways. My stuff gets wired into the patch bay usually once. If you need dual mono, buy two they're cheap enough, plus two fill in the rack space better. Please see my other post about metering. Now that I think about it, the only dbx compressors I actually use have "limited metering" but it doesn't stop me from using them.

    Mark Plancke
     
  14. Tom Cram

    Tom Cram Active Member

    Mplancke,(and others)

    The original post that started this whole mess was a guy asking what makes an ART different from a Summit Audio TLA-100A besides price. Everybody started recommending RNC without actually answering his question. So I told him, in comparison with the RNC everybody was recommending, it was features, NOT SOUND QUALITY.

    Let's keep our eyes on the ball.

    Besides, what would you have told him?
     
  15. MPlancke

    MPlancke Member

    Originally posted by Cram:

    Besides, what would you have told him?


    I would have told him that the ART was/is an unmitigated POS and to buy the RNC.

    Mark Plancke
     

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