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Wrongful work approaches to Independent recording artists.

Member for

21 years
I have a good home studio where I produce my music.
Since '96 after countless demo submissions etc I am yet to earn any income from my work.
I persist, it being my passion and I believe , my calling in life.
Yesterday I was contacted by a past aquintance.
He asked me to produce 2 x 60 second musical pieces which were to be the music for the theme and end credits for a Television show. The music he wanted was quite involved , it requiring me to attain score etc as my reference. Two classical pieces. The television channel involved is a particularly well known one.
My payment for my work for this ? .....Nothing.
Apart from having my name listed on the end credits of the TV show.
How can people like this and particularly the television channel be stopped from taking advantage of independent recording artists / engineers in this arrogant and disconsiderent way ?
If there happens to be any formal body or company that can repremand these users I would be very interested to know.

Comments

Member for

21 years

Member Tue, 01/23/2007 - 08:40
How can APRA help you? What are you gonna say? "Hey, I was approached by someone in TV who asked me if I could donate some music for free, and I said Hell No!"

I think they might just ignore you, and maybe laugh into their coffee.

Unless it was a job you actually finished and failed to receive payment for, in which case you would go to the courts and sue them for non-payment. But you didn't even take the job so .... what's the problem?

Member for

19 years 9 months

Thomas W. Bethel Sun, 11/26/2006 - 04:13
If you are going to work for free then that is what people will want to pay you. They are not going to GIVE you money unless you ask for it

I have a good friend that is making a very comfortable living off doing composing for video programs. He is very savvy in working with TV producers and networks and negotiates all kinds of contracts on a daily basis. You might want to talk to someone who is in the business and find out how they go about negotiating the price and how to get a proper contract arranged with the people who are paying for your services.

Member for

21 years

Member Sun, 11/26/2006 - 08:40
>>particularly the television channel be stopped from taking advantage of independent recording artists / engineers in this arrogant and disconsiderent way ?
The TV channel has NOTHING to do with it. It is the person who's selling them the music (your friend in this case) that's asking you to work for free. But, asking is NOT forcing...

>>If there happens to be any formal body or company that can repremand these users I would be very interested to know
Ah! Allow me to propose the following:

1) If you are a COMPOSER you would have jumped at the chance to have TV credits for a show, for obvious reasons. Virtually EVERY composer known to man has started doing free work. Either for student films or any thing that could give them exposure AND credits. That's the way it has been and the way it will be.

2) If you are NOT a COMPOSER and are instead more of a producer then, that would not be a field you are interested in therefore, the point is moot.

3) People can (and will) ask for whatever they think they can get. It is up to you, and ONLY you to decide when it's worth doing a job for free and when it isn't.

It is NOT illegal to ask for a freebie or a spec deal.

Don't be so bitter - it doesn't help you further your career. Look at everything as a possible opportunity and then, decide whether that opportunity is worth anything to you or not...and act accordingly.

If your composition/production work is good you'll get better gigs in due time.

Member for

21 years

Member Tue, 01/23/2007 - 12:49
How can APRA help ?
My oroiginal post was not about work I had completed or done. It simply seeked comment and suggestions in the possible scenario where it may happen to someone else.
In that case APRA might just be able to help by
referring whoever may be concerned to a music lawyer.
Laugh into thier coffee ? Definately NO.
A job I actually finished and failed to receive payment for ? Read one of my earlier replies.
NEVER would I be so foolish as to let my good work out the door without being paid for it.

Member for

21 years

Member Tue, 01/23/2007 - 16:44
There will always be people trying to take advantage of talented musicians by trying to get stuff for free, but it's at the discretion of the musician if they want to do the work for nothing - there's nothing inherently wrong with someone asking for freebies!

There may be some other benefit, such as your name on the credits of a very reputable TV show which you can then use in your CV as you build your musical career, after all no other TV producers would need to know you didn't get paid for that particular job. It could be used as the proverbial 'foot-in-the-door', and once your foot's in the door you suddenly become a credible (and payable) talent.

I think if you approached APRA they may suggest you take the job unpaid anyway if it's offered - purely for the other benefits associated with it.

Member for

21 years

Member Wed, 01/24/2007 - 07:35
RE

Not sure why you would ask for help from the great people of this site only to totally disregard and put down anyone who replies? If your first post isn't getting your point across (which obviously it isn't), just edit it so that we can get a better understanding of your dilema. It's hard to make out what the problem is through the miscellaneous insults thrown about in your replies.

Have a good one,
Wyatt

Member for

15 years 10 months

hueseph Wed, 01/24/2007 - 15:45
bewarethanatos wrote: [quote=speakeasy]Since '96 after countless demo submissions etc I am yet to earn any income from my work.

vs.

speakeasy wrote: And by the way, I've made quite good earnings from my studio work

I had to repost this 'cause it really does embody a good question. Are you making money or are you not? If you're not doing this professionally, then why not do a freebie for credits? I know I would jump at the chance. One project doesn't make a career but it could start one. Why throw away an opportunity for potential thousands (millions?) to see your name in referrence to the show they just watched? That seems far from a bum deal to me. Actually it sounds more like free advertising and that I can tell you is expensive. Up to tens of thousands of dollars for a simple box in a retail flyer(I work with the marketing dept. of my company. Just a shipper though.).

Member for

21 years

Member Tue, 11/28/2006 - 02:55
CombatWombat wrote: I still don't get it. You first postmake it sound like you did the work and got your name in the credits. Is that the case or not? Your next post makes it sound like you told them to take a hike. Which is it?

If you did the work without negotiating any sort of contract and just expected to work it out later, then you're the fool.

If you they told you up front that they wouldn't pay for your work and you told them to get lost, then you didn't get taken adavantage of and are just complaining that they would even come to you under those terms?

You're not making a lot of sense.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better. MY POST originally was simply to ENQUIRE as to whether AS IN THE CASE OF OTHER ORGINISATIONS such as CONSUMER AFFAIRS, MINISTRY OF FAIR TRADING, etc etc, there might be a company that acts on behallf of independent recording artists and engineers industry and professional rights.
WHY DO I ASK ?
Simple - BECAUSE I WANT TO REPORT THESE USERS in the hope that I might HELP OTHERS. GET it now ? No ?
OK, for example, in case of COPYRIGHT, if it is deemed that the unlawful copying of ANY work be it music, recording, artwork or any product non arts related, then there is action that can be taken to repremand and even penalise unscrupulous and unethical people who take advantage of professionals.
But the thing is NO ONE as yet has responded in anyway helpful at all, but that's fine because it just confirms that right now, this being my last post,
I have great things to do.
Thanks sincerely to ( you know who you are ) for your help with Kontact.
Might'nt have seemed much at the time, but helped me immensley.

Member for

16 years 9 months

CombatWombat Wed, 01/24/2007 - 18:23
Good god. Are you back for MORE!?! I assumed you'd had enough of people letting you know you're a complete asshole.

Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better.

Uh huh.

If you're gonna lie, at least do it right. Now you're not just an asshole, you're dumb too. It's a common, yet very unflattering combination.

Member for

15 years 10 months

hueseph Wed, 01/24/2007 - 19:26
CombatWombat wrote:
Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better.


Ok. That had me rolling for a while. That's just way too funny!

Member for

16 years 9 months

CombatWombat Tue, 11/28/2006 - 07:45
Jesus Christ! Listen to yourself! You sound like a little kid. I don't know who you think you're impressing by tossing out the insults and throwing a little temper tantrum. It reminds me of my 6-year-old nephew, seriously.

I'm glad you have enough "god damn industry experience" to know that you shouldn't work for free. Congrats. :yes:

And, just to let you in on a little secret about communication. If you send out a message, and no one understands it...it's YOUR fault. Not ours. Interesting concept!

Love,
Tyler

Member for

17 years 2 months

JoeH Tue, 11/28/2006 - 08:59
Somebody flag this thread and this moron, ASAP.

He doens't know how to write a coherent post, and resorts to insults and cheap shots the moment he's given advice he doesn't want to hear. ( I read the initial post, and from the way it's written, it does indeed read as if he's already done the work discussed. His problems are grammatical and syntax, NOT the answers he received...)

What an utter waste of time for everyone who tried to help him. Whoever he is, and wherever he works, he has some SERIOUS personality issues to sort out.

Not with an ELEVEN-foot pole, nope!

Member for

16 years 10 months

MadTiger3000 Thu, 01/25/2007 - 03:01
hueseph wrote: [quote=CombatWombat]
Tyler, I definately 'aint religious but never use " the Lord's " name in vain.

CombatWombat is a great name for unintelligent beings such as yourself.
I'll spell it out. I never at any stage said that I DID ANY work for these users AT ALL and I also have had enough god damn industry experience to know better.


Ok. That had me rolling for a while. That's just way too funny!

Hehehe.

Well, technically, he used the TITLE in vain, but the point still is made.

OP is an "interesting" person. :wink:

Member for

15 years 7 months

TVPostSound Fri, 11/24/2006 - 18:37
My payment for my work for this ? .....Nothing. How can people like this and particularly the television channel be stopped from taking advantage of independent recording artists / engineers in this arrogant and disconsiderent way ?

Why did you not charge for your work???
You have no one to blame but yourself for giving away your talents.
The television channel has nothing to do with this, the shows executive producer was paid, why didnt he pay you???

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