Are TRS cables and "Speaker Cables" the same?
I just wanted to ask if TRS cables are the exactly the same as "Speaker Cables?" Speaker cables that you would normally use to hook your studio monitors to your audio interface.
Also, are these the same cables that should be used between a guitar amp head and the cabinet?
Thanks for the advice!
dvdhawk, post: 398017 wrote: Remy, some arena sized systems do use powered line-arrays.
And if an amp module goes bad you might have to drop the hang to get to it, or send someone up to pull the module. If an amp channel goes bad with passive boxes you can move the speaker cable to a spare amp in the rack that's already patched with the same input.
Personally I don't like schlepping large heavy amplifiers. So smaller amplifiers built in speakers make it a lot easier. And even for smaller nightclubs, I wouldn't hesitate going with a couple of JBL EON's on either side of the band. So even if one goes down, you're still cooking. And if you want subwoofers, you get a couple of powered subwoofers. Again, if one fails, you're still providing bottom. There is no sense rhyme or reason to be schlepping heavy power amplifiers anymore. Big speaker boxes have plenty of space for amplifiers inside of them.
How did I get on this subject?
Mx. Remy Ann David
bouldersound, post: 398039 wrote: And if an amp module goes bad you might have to drop the hang to get to it, or send someone up to pull the module. If an amp channel goes bad with passive boxes you can move the speaker cable to a spare amp in the rack that's already patched with the same input.
I agree, and personally don't believe powered cabinets have any advantage in terms of what Remy calls, "localized failure". As you point out, there is no work-around for a dead powered cabinet. When any part of it fails you're stuck with a dead cabinet until repairs can be made. A task that sucks on the ground, and I'm sure is exponentially worse 100ft in the air. So it's really just a matter of where the failure is localized to, and where it's easier to fix. The big companies, A) use computer networking to monitor each amp and cabinet's performance during the show to minimize failure, B) use good gear with relatively low equipment mortality rates and C) sell off equipment as it reaches a certain age - before it becomes unreliable.
The biggest advantages I can see to a self-powered system would be less net space in the truck(s), and little to no power-loss between the amp and the speaker.
The down-side - the dead box problem, they require more care in transport, and the required electrical distribution.
Actually I believe that broadcasters generally make more capable engineers then do the average recording school graduate? PA guys in general I find a little more malleable. They're used to far more curves than they've learned how to adapt. And recording school graduates don't understand why it doesn't translate their schooling doesn't apply to PA or live recording applications. Because they all know you have to have all condenser microphones otherwise it won't be professional LOL. Yeah right.
Take two... Of everything
Mx. Remy Ann David
Thanks a million
No, the cable doesn't have two conductors with no ground. You don't know what you're talking about. The cable has a single hot conductor and a ground reference called ground. And it is not, repeat not, a shielded piece of cabling. Shielded cable presents a more inductive load which an amplifier does not want to see. An amplifier only wants to see a resistive load.
When you indicate standard speaker cables, there ain't no standard Sonny boy. I think the cold in Almonte, Ontario, must be affecting your thought process? Standard speaker cables are like 14-10 gauge, unshielded, 2 conductor. Shielded microphone cabling is generally 24-22 gauge, 2 conductors wrapped by a braided or wrapped or foil/wire, shield and that ain't speaker cable. Get that in your head. That's microphone and line level cabling appropriate for low current, low voltage sources and not power amplifiers. Get that in your head. Maybe you should also pick up a book and get that in your head? I mean it's cold enough in Ontario right now that I know you're not lying on the beach trying to get a tan.
Now when dealing with a pair of active powered monitors that don't require an external heavy-duty powerful, power amplifier, you use shielded microphone cabling. And that microphone cabling can have XLR or, 1/4 inch tip, ring and sleeve and yup, THAT YOU WANT TO HAVE SHIELDED. Because you're not feeding a high output power source from a mixer. That is lower voltage and lower current known as line level. And it can even accommodate lower levels like microphone levels that are another 50+ DB lower than line level signals. So it's hard to measure. And in comparison to a high power amplifier, you have to have thick wire/cable for power sources. You can get away with thinner wire on extremely low voltage, low power sources. So if something in specifications indicate a hefty output power, you'll use hefty unshielded cables. If something specifies that it has 1.23 V output or less, you'll use skinny little wires because there is no current trying to get transferred to move large quantities of air. Can ya get your head around that?
So no speaker cabling is ever balanced, NEVER, EVER. Only microphones and line level cables may or may not be balanced depending on the application. Anything involving any power has to be connected with thick cables unless you want to burn down your house/apartment? And not balanced. You cannot just surmise things from what you think you have observed without knowing some basic simple electronics. I mean when you look at the current president of the United States you'd swear he was black right? But he is in fact 50-50 with a Caucasian mommy. So he's not exactly what he appears to be. He's a shielded president because he's got both black-and-white conductors inside of his body being shielded by a nice white Secret Service and that's the only instance where you will find two conductors with a shield while transferring power. And your country is what we would call unbalanced. Because you have only a single conductor in a single province and everything else near it and around it is simply a ground. Or so to speak?
You really need to start drinking.
Mx. Remy Ann David
Porgeville, post: 397820 wrote: Ok, but I've gotta get this clear in my head: I've seen standard speaker cable capped with TRS's (which I admit seem to be exceedingly hard to find) ... so what's happening inside the box?
It's extremely unlikely any such cable is deliberately manufactured. Maybe it's some sort of production error.
Porgeville, post: 397820 wrote: The output on my board and powered monitors are TRS, so the choice there is clear.
The signal from your board is line level, probably balanced, as is the input of your powered monitors. You are connecting a mixer to an amplifier so you use line cable, not speaker cable. Speaker cable is only used between the amp and speaker, all of which are inside the cabinet of a powered speaker.
Porgeville, post: 397820 wrote: I've seen standard speaker cable capped with TRS's
Doubt it. Just TS Jack (Tip-Sleeve).
TRS is what you'd see on a stereo headphones jack, not a guitar lead.
XLR for line/mic/aes and Speakon for speakers FTW
Kurt Foster, post: 397853 wrote: some people wire trs jacks on speaker cables intentionally so they can "hot swap" at the speaker end without shorting the connections momentarily. this is so they can switch speakers without turning off the power amps. not recommended btw. i personally prefer banana jacks or speakons.
This was going to be my guess. Back in the day, I always wired my 1/4" speaker jacks going to the cabinets of the PA with TRS ends. To "hot-swap" just as Kurt said. This was before I went to Nema L6-15 twist-loks on everything. Before speakons btw.......LOTS of surface area for the contact.
To answer the question.....Yes, in the case of powered monitors, you will use a TRS and a shielded 3 conductor....possibly even a XLR somewhere in the hookup. For unpowered speakers being run from a separate power amp, you will want at LEAST 12 gauge fine strand cables. The more strands the better. You ask "Why?"
Because electricity (which includes ALL transmissions of electrical signals no matter what form they are in) travels on the SURFACE of the wire. Not through the center....so, SURFACE AREA is the goal here. The more surface area the more fidelity. And less impedance....of course.
Was that a horse I hit?
Mx. Remy Ann David
And using TRS cables, or TS instrument cables to carry speaker levels is never a good idea. For the reasons cited by BobRogers & bouldersound
I will concede that SOME parts of an electrical current flow "through" the core of a wire.....but the absolute center is nil in most circumstances and as was suggested, most are at the surface area. The fact is also true that an unbalanced and unshielded wire has transmissions OUTSIDE of the physical wire itself. A fact measurable and evident using fairly unsophisticated equipment such as a 'hot stick' or a ammeter with a current transformer coil.
It's the end of the world as we know it day after tomorrow. Maybe the poles are going to flip and what will that do to our sound? Will my woofers start to suck? Will my analog machines run backwards? Should I go north for the winter and what will the beaches be like in Nova Scotia this time of year?
In search of some good Nova Scotia lox. Who brought the cream cheese and bagels?
Mx. Remy Ann David
Boswell, post: 397913 wrote: The skin depth of a conducting wire is inversely proportional to frequency. At 1KHz, the skin depth (63% of the current flows outside this) of copper is about 2mm, so Dave is right, there will be a slight effect at audio frequencies. It would apply only where the wire is solid or is several non-insulated strands bundled together. I know some audiophiles who use multistrand insulated wires for loudspeaker connections, and it's one of the rare circumstances where they have some justification.
Yup, been using multistrand (Braided) insulated wires for loudspeakers for 25 years. Glad to know why lol! I think I forgot it made a difference. I can't tell from the sound of music today ... Well, I think my hearing not quite up to standards.
looks close to this