Skip to main content

I am hearing that more artist are recording in home studios instead of commercial recording studios. Also a high quality of sound on current CDs' seem not to be one of consumers major concerns. With that being said what direction do you feel the recording engineer position is going? What are your own personal experience, or what you have heard.

Comments

RecorderMan Fri, 12/19/2003 - 09:34

Originally posted by reddb:
[QBdirection do you feel the recording engineer position is going? What are your own personal experience, or what you have heard. [/QB]

becoming in a word: obsolete

AudioGaff Sat, 12/20/2003 - 01:44

Well just because all these people CAN record in their home and without going to a real studio, that surely doesn't mean they are able to do a good or even decent job of it. Asuming you have a great song, great arrangement, great instruments and great performances, you still can not bypass the basics to obtain great sounds. You need a great or at least controlable room, you need to know how to use mics correctly, and you need to know how to mix it all together so it doesn't sound like crap. it is much, much harder to get a quality product finished. Most, if not all people who try to attempt this soon find out.

I polish a lot turds re-mixing complete utter crap these days from fools that have tried to do it all themselves and fail. I can always make it sound much better than it was before, but it is so sad to know that it could be really great if they had done it right with an experienced and qualified person with right tools doing the work.

Like many other trades, the true skills of the audio engineer are destined to be lost and forgotten and to become just another database archive. The ability to record at home will never replace or make obsolete the skills, techniques and experiences of a good engineer, but it is a fact that there will an ever growing surge of crap made music making it's way into the marketplace none the less...

Don Grossinger Mon, 12/22/2003 - 07:59

The "recording engineer" has become an obsolete job title.

"Saving money" on the recording & mastering process has become more important than fine quality sound.

There will be a few remaining specialists, but most recordings will be done under uncontrolled, non-expert conditions in the future.

Perhaps the pendulum will swing back the other way in awhile, when people get tired of trying to wear all the hats & realize that although they CAN record & master at home that does not mean they will get best results doing things that way.....

maintiger Mon, 12/22/2003 - 09:32

Yet it can be a totally super experience, recording at home- I sold my commercial studio and decided to set up a small place at home and concentrate in my songwriting and recording my songs- Let me tell you, I don't miss recording the stuff In was recording at my commercial studio- sometimes you get a good project but most of the times i didn't care for what I was doing- now I do my stuff plus a few projects that appeal to me from other people- truly liberating, if you don't need $$$, that is! Happy Holidays!

Maintiger :p:

Don Grossinger Mon, 12/22/2003 - 11:53

I'm sure that is true. That plus the ability to spend lots of time on a project without the financial pressure of hourly rates is a plus. It must feel liberating.

It's not for a lack of enthusiasiam for recording that commercial studios have suffered, it's a financial & fredom thing.

However, you as a former professional studio operator, have a real advantage over a rookie trying to become a recording engineer, mastering engineer, label owner, distributor & artist all at once. Many people who try that are overwhelmed by the many areas they have to become experts at. As a result corners are cut in many areas.

It may not have been a bad idea to have an expert record you, etc.

Don Grossinger Mon, 12/22/2003 - 11:55

I'm sure that is true. That plus the ability to spend lots of time on a project without the financial pressure of hourly rates is a plus. It must feel liberating.

It's not for a lack of enthusiasiam for recording that commercial studios have suffered, it's a financial & fredom thing.

However, you as a former professional studio operator, have a real advantage over a rookie trying to become a recording engineer, mastering engineer, label owner, distributor & artist all at once. Many people who try that are overwhelmed by the many areas they have to become experts at. As a result corners are cut in many areas.

It may not have been a bad idea to have an expert record you, etc.

realdynamix Mon, 12/22/2003 - 12:01

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
becoming in a word: obsolete

Case in point, man comes out of retirement back into audio after 20 years, true, what you hear at the monitors is one thing, getting there with the NEW technology is another. So the only logical real way to proceed is to build that nice large format multitrack studio over again, and continue where he left off....WRONG. You must diversify.

Not only has the technology changed, but the duty one is expected to do came with a new term called "multitasking." No longer can the modern engineer be focused on a single process.

The specialist must now become a General Practitioner. The field of audio stretches far and wide now, and the modern engineer must have an understanding of all.

I'm not saying that an engineer can't find a nitch market, but if one truly wants to remain a viable technical multitasker, He must be diverse.

Happy Holidays,

--Rick

sserendipity Tue, 01/20/2004 - 12:08

Originally posted by Rick Hammang:
Originally posted by RecorderMan:
becoming in a word: obsolete

I'm not saying that an engineer can't find a nitch market, but if one truly wants to remain a viable technical multitasker, He must be diverse.

Obsolete? I'd disagree completely. What is obsolete is the rest of the studio.

If everyone can get their hands on the tools, then the only differentiator will be in whose hands those tools are. No longer will a mediocre engineer with a massive investment in gear be able to get a better sound than someone with real talent.

maintiger Tue, 01/20/2004 - 13:28

the key word here is professional. Profesional people are always needed to get professional results. There will always be a need for that. Professional projects will always have a budget because you are expected to recoup your costs through sales of your product.

The studios that will suffer are the ones that cater to demos and to poor musicians without a budget- I know, I had a studio like that and I was glad to sell it and get out. Most musicians with today's daws can get results that are passable for demos- and that's all you need to go to the next step where the budget is-

the only thing that is likely to change is that training for engineers will be more than likely self taught for the most part in peoples daws. Those who find their vocation will move on and either eventually work in a pro situation or freelance mix and/or produce acts and find their way into gigs with a budget. But there will always be a need for professionals. :D :D heck, the more things change, the more they stay the same

Thomas W. Bethel Tue, 01/20/2004 - 17:44

When word processors became available everyone who was a budding writer wanted one so they could write the "great American novel" They wrote and wrote and wrote but never got published. They finally gave up and left the writing to people who do it as a profession and used their word processors to type a letter to Aunt Minnie.

The people who do write novels using a word processor are few and far between and they are usually professional writers or tend to use the services of a professional to check their grammar and linguistics.

People found out that just because you have a word processor does not make you a Mark Twain or William Shakespeare.

I say just because you have a DAW does not make you a Bruce Swedien or Glenn Meadows.

I am a mastering engineer and get to listen to a lot of what is recorded today. Some of it is CRAP some of it is good, some of it is excellent. Some comes from Pro studios, some from home studios and some from all the in one units stuck in someone's bedroom.

No one place produces the best recordings. I get bad recording from Pro studios and beautifully crafted productions from the kid around the corner. It is all a matter of skill and experience and the ability to understand what you are doing. Some people are born to it some are not.

People tell me that it is too expensive to record in a recording studio so they want to buy their own equipment and do it themselves. They spend $5,000 to $7,000 dollars on equipment, use it for messing around with and never seem to complete anything and when it goes out of date complain loudly to anyone who will listen that manufactures should not make gear obsolete in only a couple of years.

Instead they could have gone to a really good recording studio, spent a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand dollars and had a nicely done recording that would be generating income.

Many people would rather do it themselves but they seem to never get done with the project. They are always at GC looking for new microphones, new plugins or new racks of outboard equipment to give them the edge.

"if only I could find what so and so is using I could be really be a great musician and or engineer" they proclaim loudly to any and all . HOGWASH. It is not the gear that has to be great it is the recording engineer and the musician who have to be great. A good engineer can make bad equipment sound OK the reverse is NOT true.

Pardon the rant but it amazes me that sane people will go out and purchase thousands of dollars of equipment to save themselves a couple of hundred. I guess that is the "American way"

As to the topic at hand I see recording engineers broadening out their horizons and acting as the final solution when some one in their home studio cannot get the sound they want or do the mixdown and they have to turn to the pros to get their work done.

I also see in the future a lot of equipment lying dormant in people's houses that cost a ton of money, was bought for the specific reason of recording their band and then the interest lagged or the skills weren't there and the equipment sits in the basement or the garage never to be used again. (right next to the exercise bike or the pool table or the thigh master)

FWIW

realdynamix Tue, 01/20/2004 - 18:15

:) Tom, you made strong and excellent points, my take was not the demise of the engineer, but the enhancement. Firstly, you mention the word processor, well, that's a great analogy since millions of jobs were lost to it, a modern publishing software user can produce magazine quality camera ready art, graphics, and typset in no time, yet is paid about what the executive assistant was paid before. All the associated jobs were not needed, not to say that printing company's and publishers don't maintain this type of staff, maybe just not as many. It is survival, being able to bring in the business, and still market what you can do. This is where we want to be, as an indy, or working for a company. I see many specialists wondering about aimlessly, some are changing fields, and only dabble a little in their real trade. I have also seen studio's go, one after another, with many clients left with no where to turn. IOW's if things get that bad, imerge into something that values the expertice. Don't throw in the towel.

--Rick

Thomas W. Bethel Wed, 01/21/2004 - 04:36

Really good recording engineers are still needed in the process of record production and they will be needed in the future.

The people who want to be recording engineers and are truly motivated, talented, and are willing to spend the time learning their "craft" will always be needed.

What is happening now is that places like Guitar Centers and Sam Ash are telling people that for a few thousand dollars they can have it all. They sell them the equipment, they tell their customers the experience will come and after that the professionalism to make really good recordings is just a matter of time and patience.

HOGWASH!

Musicians in the days gone by use to collaborate with other people. There use to be a producer and an engineer doing the sessions at commercial studios. Now all the recording, mixdown and mastering is done in someone's bedroom or basement and no one, other than the members of the band ever listen to the recording process while it is being done..

The band members are not making value judgments that are accurate and are based wholly on what they personally want to hear or not hear in the mixes. There is no one person, such as a producer, who is impartial and is only commenting on what he or she is hearing though the monitors.

I personally do not know of one guitar player that does not want to hear more of himself in the mix. So he tells the person who is recording the band that he wants more guitar. Then the drummer hears the mix and wants more drums and the vocalist, not wanting to be drowned out wants more vocals. The person who is engineering (if there is a dedicated person doing the mix which is unlikely or maybe the younger brother of one of the band members) is not really skilled at mixing and or negotiating and simply turns up each instrument as the player asks him to. When there is no more room left to turn anyone up the whole band gets into a funk because each of them wants his instrument louder and now they are all as loud as they can be. The mix really sounds bad.

The band members, who are not skilled in the process of recording and mixing, have no idea how to properly do a recording or a mix so they get very frustrated with the whole process and it bogs down and goes nowhere. Since the musicians own the recording equipment they say to themselves "we need more time so lets do it all over again" but it is not more time that is needed. What they need is someone with the professional chops who can step in and do what the member of the band cannot and that is record and mix the music correctly. Some one who is impartial and can listen to the music without all the emotional baggage that every band carries with it.

The engineer and producer are paid to do their jobs and do them well. They care only about the final product and don't need or want to know that the drummer is having marital problems or that the vocalist had a huge hangover the day of the vocal overdubs and was barely able to stand. They are also listening with professional ears and can hear things that others cannot or don't want to hear like missed entrances, out of tune instruments or drum beats that wander. These are things that the band should be able to hear but they chose not to for various reasons. Maybe they have had ongoing fights over of the wandering drum beats and it has caused some rife in the group, maybe it is because the vocalist is the wife of one of the band members and NO ONE wants to criticize her out of tune vocals.

I get these mixes dumped into my lap on a daily basis as a mastering engineer. They want the mastering engineer, me, to fix all the problems it took them months to create. It is not possible nor economically feasible..

If the band would hire a professional recording engineer and a producer at the start of the recording process not only would have taken LESS time but there would now be a completed mixdown that was ready for mastering and would soon be released and making the band money. And.... it would probably cost them less money in the long run for the project.

Guitar Centers and Sam Ash are in the business of selling equipment and that is what they do best. If they have to tell people small fibs about how EASY it is to do your own recordings then it just goes with the territory. After all they have to make a buck and they probably will never see the customer again unless that customer comes back in for that "special microphone" that will guarantee him/her a million seller. (ya right)

All of these problems are starting to trickle over into my profession, mastering, and more and more bands that can't do a decent job of tracking and mixing are now being told that for $1200.00 and a few computer programs they now can be mastering engineers as well. Next GC and SA will be selling the band duplication equipment so they can set up their own record company - oh I forgot they are already doing that.

My advice. Hire a professional recording studio to do your recording for you. If you want to purchase some equipment spend the money on your instruments and/or your rig. If you want to do demos then get one of the "all-in-one" units and do all the pre recording session recordings you want to do in your basement but leave the recording you are going to make money from in the hands of a professional. You will not only save money and time but in the long run the band may be able to spend more time recording and less time fighting about who's solo should be the loudest.

What started out as a way to save money (by purchasing all your own equipment) has turned out instead to be a huge boondoggle that no one from the individual band members to the buying public is really happy with.

FWIW and FYI

[ January 22, 2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Thomas W. Bethel ]

Thomas W. Bethel Thu, 01/22/2004 - 07:16

From a good friend after reading the above post on the web board

Well, why don't we look at this from a different perspective for a moment. Times have changed - radically in fact from just a few ago, let alone music and recording from 20 years past. And the terms mastering, recording engineer, producer, ect have all lost their meaning. In the past, there seemed to be a lot more discretion used in the recording industry as well as a lot more musicianship. People had to have talent in the past. I remember watching Lawrence Whelk with my grandparents when I was growing up. The singers, musicians, dancers all seems to know exactly what they were doing. They had obviously spent literally years of their life trying to perfect their craft. And it showed in their performances! With the advancement of technology today, with pitch correction, waveform editing, sampling, an endless amount of retakes, effects, ect ... very little talent is actually needed to produce a marketable product. We hear evidence of that everyday on the radio. But people are buying (or at least downloading :-) what the "artists" are selling for the most part. This is intoxicating for a lot of novice musicians. Rarely do I find a singer or musician who doesn't want to make it "big" (or at least rich) in the industry. It's so little about the music and more about either the ego boost or the money. And since so many musicians and singers have so little money and time these days, and since everyone seems to be willing to lend a helping hand (at least with credit cards and accounts) the all-in-one miracle recording boxes are the naive musician's dream come true. I CAN have it ALL right now (or so they think). But playing the devil's advocate for a moment, let's parallel the musician with the painter. Painting is a very intimate experience for most artists. They have their own style and technique for putting paint to canvas. No one is telling them to use more red or this special brush for this particular effect. And art (more often than not) is not enjoyed (or at least viewed) by all at the same level. What I might think looks ridiculous, someone else is willing to pay highly for. Another season of American Idol is upon us, and I (as I'm sure a lot of people) am still surprised at how many talentless people think they actually have a shot at making it. For most of them, they sound just like what they hear on the radio. If it were possible to step into someone's head for the afternoon to actually hear what they're perceiving sounds good would be an enlightened treat to say the least. This flows very true in recording as well. A recording can be flawless, yet no one cares. A singer can have an extremely dynamic range, yet no one pays to hear them perform. The music industry is probably the worst at acceptance. We either love em or hate em. A Kid Rock fan is not going to enjoy an NSync Concert. A Britney Spears fan isn't running to hear Michael Buble. Everyone wants something different and thinks their "sound" will be the next big trend. 20 years ago, people had to spend big bucks and rely on others to get their musical ideas down. Now - almost anyone can have a chance to be heard. The question is ... do we want to hear it? :-)
All of this boils down to one fact. The recording process is constantly changing these days. With new software and hardware being developed constantly, I'm sure things will evolve greatly in the next few years. How we do things today isn't how things will be done tomorrow. True, some fundamental knowledge of sound and technique are required to make it in the recording field, but the folks who are buying the all-in-ones (for the majority) should be buying a "clue" as opposed to equipment. A true artist can make beautiful music even with modest tools. But the AIOs (all-in-one-ers :-) are just trying to get their "music" out as quickly as possible to make some $$$. And who can blame them. We all want our piece of the pie :-) ... my advise is, don't listen. What sounds good to me might not sound good to someone else, and vise-versa ... can't we all just get along?? :-) I think the world would be a boring place if everyone followed the same set of "rules."
I too have to listen to what I would consider "crap" sometimes in my business, but I try and put myself in the other person's place. That's not always enough a lot of times, but I have my place in the audio "chain" and I try and do my job and let them worry about selling it to the highest bidder. If someone asks, I generally give them an honest review (although sugar coated sometimes). The fact is that at the end of the project (or the mastering stage) people aren't looking for the "truth" ... they've spent hours and hours and a lot of money on their little "baby" and all they want you to tell them is how "cute" it is. Even if junior looks (or sounds) like a bulldog. At this ending point, it's tooooooo late to be really honest. If they ask me at the beginning I'm more aggressive with my opinion, but coming down the home stretch there's not much that can be salvaged without major surgery.
Are we going to change recording? who knows ... but it does make for an interesting day :-)"

anonymous Thu, 01/22/2004 - 13:04

When the studio I worked at closed, the owner said it was for two reasons: Napster & Pro Tools.

realdynamix Thu, 01/22/2004 - 13:31

Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:
From a good friend after reading the above post on the web board

... I remember watching Lawrence Whelk with my grandparents when I was growing up. The singers, musicians, dancers all seems to know exactly what they were doing. They had obviously spent literally years of their life trying to perfect their craft. And it showed in their performances!

....let's parallel the musician with the painter. Painting is a very intimate experience for most artists. ...How we do things today isn't how things will be done tomorrow.

... The fact is that at the end of the project (or the mastering stage) people aren't looking for the "truth" ... Are we going to change recording? who knows ... but it does make for an interesting day :-)"

:) Tom, Amen once again in support of the craft,
LW?, watch those shows again, they are masterful, not only in the music and performances, but in the video presentation as well, everything from bubbles, to lighting was perfect. Everyone hit their mark, and the sound was outstanding. It is too bad that there isn't enough time, expense and personnel to polish a production like that.

I think when it aired it was weekly. There is no question, there were many artists behind the scenes, and prepared all week for the show.

:) Where you wrote about the painter, this is what I miss in music today.
I hear the beats and generally good song, but I don't walk away with an experience. It is sort of like having a band at a wedding reception, Ya, they are going to play all the favorites, but you know it's just a dance band mimicking, nothing to comment about. Leaves me empty.

They can't handle the truth! Let the engineer apply great care and skill to a mix, let a great mastering engineer prepare it for mass enjoyment!

Build in some things to open up my listening experience. Not just move my body, move my spirit. Tickle my senses with great audio reproduction. It has to turn back, some way, some how. The public has to be educated in what quality audio means.

--Rick

anonymous Thu, 01/22/2004 - 18:25

Ended up a little lengthy. Sorry. This is a great topic that hits very close to home. I'm a proffessional music teacher, an amatuer singer/songwriter, and a newbie recordist. Please give me some honest advice.

Knowing next to nothing, I purchased a computer and a Digi001 a year and a half ago with the hopes of making some high quality demos to sell at gigs. After long hours and many headaches configuring, learning the program, trying some plug ins, and dealing with crashes and other computer bugs, I managed to put together what sounds like a bunch of experimenting. Without any other hardware than the 001 besides one LD condenser, the sound, to say the least, is not good. Eventhough I like some of the performances, the sound is nowhere near what I thought I'd be getting. After all, I was buying a "high quality", "industry standard" work station with a state of the art Mac. I've learned better since.

So cut to the chase. This and other similar forums have been SO eye opening to me. Very educational. Here's where I'm at. Do I?:

Purchase a dedicated PC, High end soundcard, pre, and mics, give my room some treatment, all for around $10,000 or do I use that money to go to a pro studio? I'm now thinking more full album than just demo.

What do I want to accomplish? I have not illusions anymore about how much pro knowledge and experience it takes to get a pro sound. For the short term, I want to be able to track acoustic guitar and vocals at home and then bring it to a studio with a producer to do all the rest (add drums, bass, etc, mix, and master).

In the longer run I do want to better my skills at mixing and want to record other local coffee house type artists. I get the chance to collaborate, offer good demos, and make a little money off of my equipment. And, I'd have the equipment for future projects of mine to come.

So is it a waste to buy nice gear knowing that there will be a steep learning curve and that i'm limited by my lack of experience and unseasoned ears? Or will it save studio time in the long run, teach me a lot, and allow me to take my time tracking?

From what I've read, it seems that people are complaining more about when a full project is done in the home with no pros in the process. For me, again, it would just be guitar and vocals tracking at home and then pro the rest of the way. Does this seem to work well?

Derek

maintiger Thu, 01/22/2004 - 21:03

Originally posted by ILOVESOUND:

Purchase a dedicated PC, High end soundcard, pre, and mics, give my room some treatment, all for around $10,000 or do I use that money to go to a pro studio? I'm now thinking more full album than just demo.

So is it a waste to buy nice gear knowing that there will be a steep learning curve and that i'm limited by my lack of experience and unseasoned ears? Or will it save studio time in the long run, teach me a lot, and allow me to take my time tracking?

From what I've read, it seems that people are complaining more about when a full project is done in the home with no pros in the process. For me, again, it would just be guitar and vocals tracking at home and then pro the rest of the way. Does this seem to work well?

Derek

Think of the studio as learning an instrument - a life long comitment that will take up your time and money- You have to put in your time before you get good results, no doubt aboout it- 10K will buy you a nice foundation for a project studio just like 10 k will buy you a real nice piano - you have to learn to play it and it won't be overnight-

So, if you want a nice album you can be proud of, go to a pro studio and they will help you achieve your aim- If you want to take up a new passion and put your time in get that project studio- you will get that nice album and many more out of it- but only if you put in your time- a long long time-

Im sure audiogaff can elaborate on this subject some more- by the time we are done you will either be commited- or commited (to a mental intitution)
:D :D :D

AudioGaff Fri, 01/23/2004 - 01:01

So, if you want a nice album you can be proud of, go to a pro studio and they will help you achieve your aim

I agree. If you are indeed serious about 1st rate recording, don't even think about doing it yourself unless your skills are as good or better than those you would pay to do it, have the gear, the recording environment, and have the ability to manage both roles of being musician and engineer at the same time. You might want to at least record everything in a real studio and then decide if you want to pay to have it mixed there. If you do go through with the mix, as long as you get the raw material, you can always buy some DAW or outboard gear and re-mix it which is easier and cheaper than the tracking/recording part which requires much more skill to do well, more gear and a good room to do it in.

AudioGaff Fri, 01/23/2004 - 01:15

So is it a waste to buy nice gear knowing that there will be a steep learning curve and that i'm limited by my lack of experience and unseasoned ears? Or will it save studio time in the long run, teach me a lot, and allow me to take my time tracking?

That depends on your outlook, attitude and how much effort your willing apply. If you are serious about learning and mastering your tools to develop your skills then it is not a waste of time or money as long as you are learning, growing, enjoying and getting something out of it. But you may still never get real good at it or get to where you want to go or where you think you deserve to be.

Thomas W. Bethel Fri, 01/23/2004 - 04:37

I think Audio Graff has some very good points.

I guess it all comes down to what YOU want to do.

There are lots of really good, reasonably priced recording studios around that can do a very good job of recording you. Then you could do the mix yourself (if you have the time and think you have the skills) or have the studio do the mixdown as well. As Audio Graff pointed out the mixing is somewhat simpler than the recording but still should be done by someone with really good technical and musical chops.

If you chose this approach of DIY it would mean that you would have to have some equipment and one problem is that the cost of outboard equipment such as limiters, compressors, reverbs and gates can get expensive very quickly especially if they are "pro" quality not to mention the console and the monitors. You could also get something like the Tascam, Mackie or Roland all in one consoles with everything built in but again these are not cheap and then you have to have good monitors and a good acoustically designed room to use them in.

It is up to you but I think using a recording studio makes the most sense.

One thing that I would do is shop around and find a studio that you feel comfortable in and has a history of doing the type of music you do. There is nothing more terrible than having an acoustic musician trying to work with an engineer that only does heavy metal work. It is a disaster.

Most albums in this neck of the woods come in at about $2200.00 recorded and mixed. If you are comfortable with that figure you could do approximately 5 recording for what you are going to spend on equipment and the room.

I can tell you from experience you cannot be a recording engineer and a performer at the same time so you may have to add to that the services of an independent engineer to record you in your own space which will again run up the cost(s)

Another idea is to hire an independent recording engineer with his own equipment to come in and do the recording for you while you play. There are a couple of services like that around here and one is run by two firemen that do this part time and have a van that they have completely equipped with a very nice setup. They are both musicians and have spent a lot of time and a lot of money to be able to provide this service. There maybe something like this in your area. The problems that they run into with this service may or may not be something that you have to contend with. The two biggest problems they have to solve with every recording is "house noises" and acoustics.

Hope all this helps.

Let us know how things are proceeding

anonymous Fri, 01/23/2004 - 06:13

Ahhhhh! You're flipping my world upside down :) It's a good thing though. Thanks! It really makes me think about where I should put my money.

You mentioned the tracking being the toughest part. That's interesting to know. I always thought the mixing and mastering were the steps that took the most expertise. I guess the initial appeal of getting my own gear was that I could take time with vocals and guitar and that if the other instruments were overdubbed in a real studio and everything was mixed and mastered professionally, I could get fairly good results.

I feel like I have a decent understanding of mic placement. Setting appropriate input levels between pre, compressor, converter, etc. is something I need to learn more about. But to get the basics down, does it take a real long time? The other piece would be room treatment. So, I'll give it some serious thought. I'm in the process of selling a violin which would buy me a pretty sweet set up. Maybe I'll take some of that $ to a studio and track a few songs to see if it gives me the results I'm after. Thanks so much!

Derek

RecorderMan Fri, 02/06/2004 - 22:21

Well most of this thread has been about the hobby of recording.

One cannot raise kids, pay for a house, etc (especially near LA) working on "records" for hobbiest's. Sorry, that's not meant as a disparaging term....just a truthfull description from where I sit. And "gear" is no more than empty tools...hell a $1500-a-day room is shit if you can't work it.

The "system" by which all the greats that are mentioned all the time is gone. They don't teach recording engineering at any school. It's a craft you lear over time. You learn a lot if your lucky to work with others that did the same before you...you end up standing on the shoulders of Giants.

So...where is recording engineering going?

Well it's truelly the worst it has ever been. period. end of story.

Oh...and recording is pretty easy once you know how. Getting their is often long and tough. Aks Lindsey Buckingham. He recorded a good portion of his last Fleetwood Mac record. Or Robbie Robertson, or Skunk Baxter. All these guys cut a majotity of they're own tracks....of course they's sound better if they used me more...LOL.

Accountng would be a perfect day job with recording as a second income.

Thomas W. Bethel Sat, 02/07/2004 - 04:42

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Well most of this thread has been about the hobby of recording.

One cannot raise kids, pay for a house, etc (especially near LA) working on "records" for hobbiest's. Sorry, that's not meant as a disparaging term....just a truthful description from where I sit. And "gear" is no more than empty tools...hell a $1500-a-day room is shit if you can't work it.

The "system" by which all the greats that are mentioned all the time is gone. They don't teach recording engineering at any school. It's a craft you lear over time. You learn a lot if your lucky to work with others that did the same before you...you end up standing on the shoulders of Giants.

So...where is recording engineering going?

Well it's truly the worst it has ever been. period. end of story.

Oh...and recording is pretty easy once you know how. Getting their is often long and tough. Aks Lindsey Buckingham. He recorded a good portion of his last Fleetwood Mac record. Or Robbie Robertson, or Skunk Baxter. All these guys cut a majority of they're own tracks....of course they'd sound better if they used me more...LOL.

Accounting would be a perfect day job with recording as a second income.

I think today many people want to do their own recording for monetary reasons. They convince themselves (with help from their local music store salesman) that it is cheaper to do it themselves in their bedroom or basement. If you listen to the salesmen in places like Guitar Center and Sam Ash they will convince you that by spending the money up front you will somehow come out further ahead in the long run. Their job is to sell equipment and their commission check at the end of the month testifies as to how well they have done their job.

I continue to be amazed at how someone in their own mind can justify spending $10,000 on equipment for a studio that they will use to record their band when the don't spend any money on the acoustics or they staple egg crates to the walls thinking that they have solved all the acoustical problems in the room.

The average recording that I master cost the band about $2200 to record at a local recording studio. This is an average. If you do the math you can see that you could do 5 records with a good studio for what it costs to equip a "home studio" with good equipment.

Also people think that by buying something like a Roland all in one unit that they have harnessed the power of a full recording studio in one box which is NOT THE CASE. They also fail to understand that by plunking down their $$$ you are buying the equipment PERIOD and now you have take the time to learn how to use it and it is only have after a lot of time that you will really learn how to use it well. Even after you learn to use it fully the ROLAND was never meant to be a full blown recording studio it was meant to be a scratch pad so you could get down your ideas before heading out to the studio to do the real recording. How people went from using it as a scratch pad for ideas to using it as their main audio recording platform is beyond me. The compression scheme that the Roland uses is a joke and it uses bit stealing techniques to make it all work so sometimes your effects are 16 bit but sometimes they may only be 12 or 8 bits depending on the number of effects and the number of tracks you are trying to record. For what it was intended to do it works fine for use as the final recording platform it is a joke.

The only ones getting rich on making everyone their own recording engineers are the people that sell equipment. They have massive campaigns to convince the average musician that they can be a recording engineer, mastering engineer and can do it all without involving anyone else in the process.

You mention a couple of musicians that are doing their own thing when it comes to recording. I would venture to say they are not doing it with Rolands and that someone has designed all the equipment to work together and they are doing their recording in acoustically designed spaces and that they have someone, who is a professional, come in and taught them how to use the equipment properly and may even employ that person on an "as needed" basis to come in a maintain the equipment and even to be there for sessions when the equipment is being used or maybe even acting as an engineer during the tracking sessions.

As Mark Twain once remarked "if you put a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters they could eventually come up with all the works of Shakespeare" what he did not say is how long it would take and who would do the final compellations of those works. Yes you can do your own recording but WHY?

FWIW....

maintiger Mon, 02/09/2004 - 08:23

Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:

As Mark Twain once remarked "if you put a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters they could eventually come up with all the works of Shakespeare" what he did not say is how long it would take and who would do the final compellations of those works. Yes you can do your own recording but WHY?

FWIW....

Let me try to answer the WHY? from my own personal perspective- Everyone is different, of course, so the answer is not universal- I can only tell my story and people can or won't relate-

I have always been a prolific singer-songwriter- in fact, I have written hundreds of songs- Because of my life circumstances I have not been able to make it a full time career- If I could only go back in time things would be different but that's neither here nor there-

I was always drawn to recording, first to reel to reel, then to portastudios when they came around- but first and only was to work on my songs, not to do recording of other people's stuff. That's just the way its always been. period.

I have recorded in other people's studio but the experience has never been totally gratifying- maybe if I had had a great producer and budget it would have been different. Probaby so.

I finally after recording for many years decided to open my own commercial studio- Eventhough I learned a lotta stuff, I found that my energy was being used by working on other people's tracks and I had no juice left to work on my own stuff, whic was the reason why I opened the place in the first place!

So, after two long years of operations I sold my studio and paid off some of my debts amd used a portion of the money to set up a studio of my own at home- Now I have a decent day job and I am happy as a clam working on my tracks at home, plus I have a new band I'm gigging with-

Not that everuting is perfect- I hope to soon be able to give up my day job and work on my music full time- I keep plugging away and will get there- Heck, the name of my band its "It Ain't Over" That's just the way I feel-

So, to answe your question WHY? is BECAUSE I LOVE IT! Its what I must do, work on my tracks, record my song, get my sound- I am working of mixing a CD of the tracks I cut with my band at the Lord Tiger Studio I owned- hopefully I can post some of my stuff within a month or two and see how yoiu guys llike it- Meanwhile, I'm working on new tracks at my new studion with my band, plus working on a demo for a new musical me and one of my partners wrote- I recently also completed a demo for an independent film I hope to get- Many things going on, many projects, all of the stuff I write- and that's the way I like it!

So, I can't speak for everybody out there, but that's my WHY :D :D

Thomas W. Bethel Mon, 02/09/2004 - 14:41

MainTiger,

There is one BIG difference in what you are doing and what others are trying to do. You PAID your dues and learned what you needed to so you could do a good job. Many others buy a ton of equipment and then just don't take the time to learn to use it. They decide to make some money and open a studio (usually because their significant other says they either make some money or else...) and so yet another recording studio opens with a person doing the recording not really knowing what they are doing and so people recording there are not impressed and don't find it a worthwhile endeavor so they decide to open their own studio where they can be creative and the cycle repeats itself ad nausium.

Hope you are having fun. Sounds like what you are doing is fulfilling and worthwhile so what else could you ask for.

maintiger Mon, 02/09/2004 - 15:52

Thank you for your kind words, Tom. I am indeed 'avin' a lotta fun! How did you yourself get in this crazy business? Would love to hear your story. :D

anonymous Mon, 02/09/2004 - 18:49

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:

Most albums in this neck of the woods come in at about $2200.00 recorded and mixed. If you are comfortable with that figure you could do approximately 5 recording for what you are going to spend on equipment and the room.

Really? A very experienced studio that is reasonably priced compared to others I've checked into in my neck of the woods offers $6000 for 7 lock out days (trking, mxng, mstrng, + 1000 cds)

This of course doesn't include the musicians which would probably be another $2,000 (drums, bass, keys, string, etc). I'm talking full 10-13 song album. If I thought it would only cost me $2,200 - $3,200 to do a full proffessional album I'd race into the studio in a heart beat. But 7 lockout days doesn't even seem like enough when we're talking about the whole process from start to finish.

I did a full album with someone who charged $20/hr and had a little studio out of his basement. I spent a LOT of time on it and it turned out crappy. He didn't know much more than I did, and at that time I knew next to nothing.

I competely hear what everyone is saying about if you want pro results, you need to go to a pro. I keep coming back to the fact that for my situation, I want to record vocals and acoustic guitar myself and leave all of the rest up to the pros. I plan to treat my room and take time to get to know the gear, however (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't seem like it would take as much time to learn how to do a decent job with vocals. Acoustic guitar is a little trickier, but even still, seems do-able in the context of a full band sound as opposed to a solo acoustic guitar album or something. It seems that getting a good drum and bass sound combo is the most difficult and takes the most experience and best sounding room. Also, pianos, strings, and other acoustic instruments I'll leave up tothe pros. All the mixing and mastering would be done by pros.

So, why spend $10,000 on gear when I'm only going to do vocals and some acoustic guitar and then spend another $6000 on studio time? I figure I can:

a - learn a lot from going through the first 1/2 of the process in a pro studio (this would be my first major album)

b - take my time getting vocals and guitar just right and in the comfort and low pressure of my own home

c - record my own high quality demos

d - make a little money doing basic demos for others who aren't doing a full album or need a seasoned pro, just need to get their ideas down.

e - eventually do full albums of my stuff or other people's

Will I ever make the $10,000 up in saving on studio time, other people's projects, and cd sales? I don't know, that's a lot of dough. However, I don't need to make up the money right away, so even if it takes 10 years for the gear to pay for itself so to speak anything I make from there on out is extra. Plus, I'll have had the gear and thus the opportunity to have learned a great deal in that time. I'm I decieving myself? I hope not. Are there risks? Of course. Is it worth spending $10,000 to find out whether or not I'll end up sucking as an engineer? If you love the process of learning and love music, I think it can be worth it. ARe you sick and tired of reading my conversation with myself? Don't answer :)

Derek

sosayu2 Mon, 02/09/2004 - 19:37

i have a really reasonbly priced studio here in manhattan. i get a lot of people who want to do a whole project soup to nuts and also get a lot of people who need the room for drums, guitars, vocals, piano etc..... and then want to bring it home to mix themselves.....7 out of ten times they come back to mix it. what does this all mean? who knows. yes the reasons are monetary and sometimes a good salesman will convince them they can do it themselves. i've built a lot of home studios and then wound up having to go back and engineer, after they see how much work is involved in setting up, getting the sounds, checking the levels and so on and so on they get bored or frustrated. they thought engineering meant pushing a couple of faders sometimes. yes, i charge more than a home studio and low rate protools room. but after the client sees how quickly things get done they've actually spent less then they did at the cheaper place. i know i'm rambling and i apologize but to me this business is about people. all going for the same goal....creating some really cool music and sounds and having a good time doing it. you can't get that working at home alone you need to feed off of one another and then the ideas start to fly andshit really starts to happen. i long for the good old days before automation when there were five pairs of hands on the board creating one mix. those old records still hold up today and todays stuff doesn't even come close even though it's technically perfect, there's just no feel for the most part. " last part of that is just my opinion"

peace
frank

Thomas W. Bethel Tue, 02/10/2004 - 03:33

ILOVESOUND

What ever feels best for you I would do.

I know a lot of musicians that have a small studio in their house to try out ideas and to do some tracking that they later can take to a pro studio for inclusion in their next album and this approach works GREAT.

I also know a couple of musicians that have gone out and purchased $10,000 + of equipment and it either sits in the basement or they use it sometimes to "play around with". That is a lot of money to be sitting in a corner so you can "play with it" when the mood hits.

Many times these are the same musicians that are at Guitar Center all the time looking for the new GIZMO that will allow them to sound like (insert name of famous artist) or that will give them the "edge". They buy the latest processors or keyboards or outboard gear in an attempt to make them sound good or sound like someone else.

What they don't admit to themselves is that they are not the musicians that they think they are and buying all this gear to make them sound like they are is simply a waste of money. If they spent more time learning how to play and listening to what others have done would me a lot more productive and a lot less costly.

It is not the gear or the software or the latest high tech strings for your guitar that make you good. It is what is inside of you and what you bring to the music. Why try to play like (insert name of famous musician) when you can chart new territory and maybe actually play better than (insert name of famous musician)?

The other thing that some people don't understand is that (insert name of famous musician) is getting paid for using a (insert name of product) and he or she may not even own one or may have used it when they were in a studio somewhere sometime but now they are being paid to say it is GREAT.

If you look at the popular magazines you see famous people saying all kinds of great things about a variety of products. Bruce Sweiden must have tried every product on the block because he is always pushing something different. He is a great recording engineer and has produced many million selling albums so he is a hot commodity when it comes to endorsing pro audio products. Maybe he does use them all maybe not but if you go out an purchase some piece of equipment in the vain attempt to sound like he recorded your material it is just not going to happen. One new microphone or one new set of strings is not going to take your poorly recorded poorly produced CD and make it a million seller. It just doesn't happen that way.

Ok enough of the soap box. Hope you are happy doing what you are doing and best of luck!

anonymous Tue, 02/10/2004 - 07:11

Thanks to both of you, I do appreciate the perspective. I hope i didn't sound defensive as I know you're not trying to tell me what to do, but rather offer advice from your experience and expertise which is what I asked for initially. I continue to think very hard about it. My aim is to create my own music and sound and I'm into trying to sound like a certain famous musician or have illusions that a piece of gear is going to make me sound like this person or that record etc. I hope I would use any gear I purchased to do some serious learning and quality tracking. That's what I had planned to do with my 001, but quickly realized that the great amount of effort I put in was not fully realized in what came out. I don't want to blame all of it on the equipment, but the pres and the converters are quite thin and my room is an echo chamber. Anyway, thanks for perspective and I'll let you know what I end up doing. Much appreciated!

Derek

Michael Fossenkemper Wed, 02/11/2004 - 06:55

Now this is a topic that i've been discussing with other engineers for several years. I was a hired gun tracking and mixing engineer in NYC for 13 years. For the most part working with the big stars. about 8 years ago I began to see a trend when protools came out. A lot of producers where buying it and working their tracks at home and then bringing them in and finishing them up. I began tracking less and less, hmmmm something is going on here. So I started mixing more and more and tracking less and less. At the same time I built a portable studio and was rolling it around, console and all, into artists houses. The artists loved it, the labels loved it cause it saved them a ton of money and the records kept coming out. Then the biz started to slowly slide. Rates came down more, more time rolling around my studio, records kept coming out. Then I setup a mastering room just for myself and started learning the trade. I was in most of the big places every month so I had a good handle on what they did so I started practicing my craft. Studios started going under 1 by one, almost no more tracking was going on but I still was doing a good deal of mixing. I attribute the downside of tracking to hip hop music. The record companies saw how cheap it was to make a hip hop record and started signing them left and right. all it took was an mpc60 and a bank of files and your rolling. an intern could track it, didn't need a $125/hour engineer to hit play and record. This marked the end of my tracking days. Then rates fell even more for mixing. What's the need for a great mixing engineer when we are going for that raw sound. producers thought they could get the sound they wanted from their mackies at home. not polished, they wanted it raw. By this time I had established myself as a mastering engineer and was crankin them out. Interns were tracking the records, producers were mixing the records and I was mastering. Other engineers thought I was crazy to switch at the top of my game. but i saw something that was changing. Now most of them are out of work and i'm now a mastering engineer. Then everyone bought protools and waves plugins and now friends are tracking friends, the artist is producing themselves and engineers are now mastering them. The quality is really bad to say the least but what can you do. I do see it coming back around a little. I'm now sought after as a mixing engineer again, but more as an over see'r of the whole project. I then put it all together at the end. This is more of a recap of my life but I think it represents most engineers. I see us as the typesetters of our time. A craft that took many years to accomplish only to be washed away by programs with 9000 fonts. The programs can't teach you how to write, but they sure make it easy to get it out there. No skill needed to craft it, just point and click. Most of the good engineers i know are still working but now have taken on a producer roll as well. They are really the only ones that know how to make a record and they know what buttons to push and mics to put up. The engineers who didn't establish themselves before the downfall are out of luck. no where to learn the craft, no one willing to teach them.

Michael Fossenkemper Wed, 02/11/2004 - 20:21

I don't want to sound like a downer, I feel it's really important to have quality people around you. So do the clients I have. But the reality is, it's not the same world as it was 10 years ago or even 5. And it's not just the music industry either. How would you like to be the owner of a photo printing place? or a contractor competing with home depot. Or even a video editor, the majority of indie movies shown at sundance were edited with final cut pro. Hell what about a travel agent. The list goes on and on. We are going through a new industial age where nothing we do is ever going to be the same. Not that i feel i'm going to be out of work next month, but if I have kids, I won't encourage them to be recording engineers for a living. I have engineers that went to school come into my studio and marvel at the site of a 2" machine. They have never seen one in person, it's hard for me to believe but it reminds me of when my grandparents used to sit around the table and talk about the good ole days. I actually want to correct myself about the down fall of the recording engineer. It's not hip hops fault. When I think back to when I started and midi and keyboards just came out, that's when it started. So it didn't happen overnight, it's been a slow and gradual process within the scope of the recording industries life. Music is never going to die, and people that are skilled in capturing it aren't going to be out of work, they just won't be as many needed.

Thomas W. Bethel Thu, 02/12/2004 - 06:06

Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
Now this is a topic that I've been discussing with other engineers for several years. By this time I had established myself as a mastering engineer and was crankin them out. Interns were tracking the records, producers were mixing the records and I was mastering. Other engineers thought I was crazy to switch at the top of my game. but I saw something that was changing. Now most of them are out of work and I'm now a mastering engineer. Then everyone bought protools and waves plugins and now friends are tracking friends, the artist is producing themselves and engineers are now mastering them. The quality is really bad to say the least but what can you do. I do see it coming back around a little. I'm now sought after as a mixing engineer again, but more as an over see'r of the whole project. I then put it all together at the end. This is more of a recap of my life but I think it represents most engineers. Most of the good engineers I know are still working but now have taken on a producer roll as well. They are really the only ones that know how to make a record and they know what buttons to push and mics to put up. The engineers who didn't establish themselves before the downfall are out of luck. no where to learn the craft, no one willing to teach them.

You left out a couple of points in your very well written reply.

There are a lot of schools turning out recording engineers every year. The range from the schools like Peabody with a four year degree to the Recording Workshop that runs for 6 weeks. All of these schools are turning out recording engineers that have, in reality, no where to go. Some of the students from the Recording Workshop apply here to my mastering studio and after interviewing a number of them have come to the conclusion that they are not as well prepared as they might be. They have the desire and the drive but they have not gotten the education that they really need to become the best and that is what it takes today.

I have also interviewed people from Indiana University and from Ohio University who both have very good recording programs and turn out excellent engineers but the problem is where do they find jobs? There are schools all over America that are turning out recording engineers at a faster and faster pace but the number of full time recording engineering jobs are declining just as fast. Most of the recent graduates cannot get jobs even as second engineer or as the English call them "trolley boys" serving as glorified go fors. This reminds me in some way of the state of classically trained musicians who graduate from some of the finest schools in Amerce and elsewhere and find, after graduation, that there are absolutely no jobs for them to go into and that most symphonies have all the musicians they want are also going belly up in large numbers and that a solo career is only a dream that maybe 1/10th of 1 percent of the yearly graduates will get to see.

The first intern job I had was at a mastering and tracking facility in Nashville. The amount of money sitting in the Neve console in the tracking room and in the Neumann Lathe in the mastering room would have precluded anyone with a normal bank account from starting up a studio with this level of equipment. The studio was owned buy a group of wealthy Southern gentlemen who were not interested in the music but really more interested in the return on their investment.

Most of the places that I worked early on had investments in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment not to mention what they had invested in their physical plants. They had consoles in the hundred's of thousands of dollars and tape machines in the tens of thousands of dollars. This meant they had to charge some bucks to a musician or label that wanted to record there. The people who ran the studios were also the engineers and if they had any other employees it was usually a second engineer and a receptionist/bookkeeper to round out the staff. They were busy all the time and were making (and spending) a lot of money every year. This was the "golden age" of recording engineers.

Then came the other thing you did not mention in your reply and that was that equipment makers like BEHRINGER, TASCAM, MACKIE, YAMAHA and ROLAND started the "home studio revolution" and forever changed the way people record their music.

The average person could now afford to purchase all the gear he or she needed for less than $10,000. (which is still a sizable investment but not considering what a new car costs today) They could take over their basement or their bedroom and make music. They did not have to pay for the studio time and could take hours and hours fine tuning a song to their liking. If something did not work out and they had to do the whole thing over again it was easy and did not cost them anything except for their time.

Then along came DAWs and this allowed the bedroom musician to do even more. Now they did not even have to sing in tune or play their instrument in tune or on the beat because the could go back in later and fine tune the pitch and the beat.

Rap and Hip Hop also added to this change and all the rappers needed were some beats, a microphone and mixer and a DAT recorder and they could make money.

The days of paying someone else to do your recording for you are properly over (except for really big artist and really big studios)

When I started in recording back in the 60's you had to travel to New York, Nashville, Los Angles or Chicago to find a really top notch recording studio, in a couple of years later you could find one within your state, a couple of more years you could find a really nicely outfitted studio in your largest cities. Today you only have to walk across the street in almost any town in the country or maybe only as far as your bedroom.

Where is it all going from here? Not sure. I too am a mastering engineer and I see more and more people attempting to do their own mastering. Maybe Tascam or Roland will come out soon with a "be your own mastering engineer all in one box appliance" that you plug the output of your DAW into and out come perfectly mastered music (oh I forgot there already is such a device it is called a FINALIZER).

I too am getting more into facilitating and acting as a consultant on the whole recording project besides doing the mastering.

It is still a very rewarding career but I am not sure what the future will bring.

FWIW

realdynamix Thu, 02/12/2004 - 14:35

:) It is like the I/T guy, once was a god, now more or less, just maintenance. Or the TV bench tech, put it on the curb and buy a new one. Hell, for all of this County, there are only 2 telephone linemen now.

I think the marketing guy has the edge right now, and of course the "Jack of all trades" is in demand at present, but for how long?

One thing that should not die, is the preservation of knowledge. These forums are the collection of a world of important history and technique. I could quote from some older recording books, but most of the info STILL applies today.

How about "Rick's studio & orange juice stand by the beach!" :D

--Rick

maintiger Thu, 02/12/2004 - 16:04

Is it the end of an era and the changing of the guard or the coming of the barbarians and the fall of Rome? Maybe both. Now we have loops, samples, beats and drum machines. You technically no longer need to play an instrument. Add the development of Vocaloid by Yahaha (see thread in the vocal both, he, he, always promoting :D )) And the birth of the virtual singer and now you don't even have to do your own singing!

Of course, there will be still a need for singers as there is still a need for drummers in today's world of loops and drum machines, for people I suspect will always like live music. But in the future world of pop music, it might be ruled by a producer with a both an inmense loop and sample library and a stable of virtual vocalist. Get the loops and the samples going for the arrangement, then pick a singer (the virtual Beyonce of the moment or perhaps some vintage W. Houston or Sting from the library)and presto!, intant gratification- post in the virtual radio station, do your payola to the powers that be (every era has them, of course) and let the download begin!

And the recording engineers? there will still be needed to record the virtual singers and the loop libraries but they will work for the software companies like the Motu or Digidesigns of tomorrow who will be putting out all the data. hey, someone wrote a new opera and want Caruso singing in it? No problem, we have virtual Caruso. How about Ella Fitzgerald singing new jazz standards that are not even written? The posibilities are endless, when you think about it. I just don't know how new talent will have an oportunity to shine but I am sure there will be a way- Enougfh rambling for one day! :D :D

realdynamix Sun, 02/15/2004 - 16:22

:) Take heart, some of us are getting older, some set in our ways. I have an open mind, which I have to fight daily with many closed minded or apathetic individuals.

I want young production talent desperately. I want digital savvy engineering types who can make the most out of resources with out just throwing money at it, or turning major modifications over to sales and consulting firms. They don't have to operate and troubleshoot the stuff once in place. Also, they may do design, but hire the lowest contractor for the install. Additionally, they are most likely to use gear that is already out of date to clear shelved products.

What is making the most out of resources? I'll give you a small quiz,

question 1, you have a single analog phone line, what could you do with this single phone line?

Question 2, Same goes for operations in production, you have a decent console, the parameters are cut and dry, but then, how many more applications can you apply to this board to increase it's integral value, IOW, how many simultaneous uses can you extract from a single 1402VLZ Pro audio mixer?

Question3, what can you do with a single VHS consumer HI-FI video recorder?

I want young talent to embrace old technology, and translate it to new technology. I want creative music, shortcuts for efficiency, and a dependable turnaround. Will I get that? Not likely, because the one's who call the shots are so far entrenched in their ways that they can't understand how this music/Film/Video world has changed.
Besides gear, there is something to add to a production that stands out from all others. This I miss today. All the technology tools is another way to get there, but very few things I have heard, of late, has impressed me with the finer details. I want the young engineers to realize, as you gain more experience, listen back to the finer points of successful hits of the past for reference. There is far more beyond the capture of a good track, a balanced mix, and a decent release. Edge up is to have abilities beyond the mainstream.

Just some more thoughts on this ongoing thread,

--Rick

Thomas W. Bethel Mon, 02/16/2004 - 03:35

Originally posted by Rick Hammang:
:) Take heart, some of us are getting older, some set in our ways. I have an open mind, which I have to fight daily with many closed minded or apathetic individuals.

question 1, you have a single analog phone line, what could you do with this single phone line?

Question 2, Same goes for operations in production, you have a decent console, the parameters are cut and dry, but then, how many more applications can you apply to this board to increase it's integral value, IOW, how many simultaneous uses can you extract from a single 1402VLZ Pro audio mixer?

Question3, what can you do with a single VHS consumer HI-FI video recorder?

Just some more thoughts on this ongoing thread,

--Rick

Well working in radio for a number of years I can tell you lots of things you can do with a single phone line. 1) Use it as a POTS line (Plain Old Telephone Service) 2) Use it for your computer and or Fax 3) Put a Telco interface on it and use it for sending and receiving program material 4) Use it to send wire photos 5) Use it to order more telephone lines or digital lines that can be used with a CODEC.

As to the console. I have seen an awfully lot of stuff done with a Mackie 1604 or 1402. I have seen it used for concert sound, for recording, for radio production, as an on air console and for a remote console for radio with a 111/C transformer tied across its output and feeling a Telco line. I have also seen it doing double and triple duty in radio where it is being used as a recording device for incoming network programming at the same time it is being used to record a reporters story off the POTS line and maybe used for monitoring both jobs at the same time with the aux channels used for monitor sends to two sets of computer speakers.

As to the video tape recorder- you can watch movies on it, watch training tapes, use it for a TV tuner to get sound and picture off a network show to use in a news broadcast (after obtaining approval from the network), record simple mono audio on it and if it is equipped with hifi setup use it to record music. You can also use it for recording video off surveillance cameras and with two of them to do linear editing of video (crude but it can be done)

You use the equipment you have on hand and use it to its fullest extent. It easy to keep going out and buying more and more expensive equipment but if that equipment is only sitting in a rack and used once or twice a year for special purposes it is not making you money and you are going to soon forget how to utilize it to its fullest extent (especially true with digital equipment)

I also think that a person with good audio skills and who knows his way around equipment and has good people skills is much more valuable than a "green" engineer in a room full of expensive equipment. Don't forget that the Beatles started off with two - two track tape recorders and a lot of ideas and we still are listening to their material today.

The world of recording and the recording engineer are changing.

There will always be a place for someone who has his or her head together, has good eye hand coordination, can grasp complex problems and provide interesting and creative solutions to those problems, who can troubleshoot complex systems and who can communicate with others at their level - Now will that be fries with that order and who ordered the double cheese?

realdynamix Mon, 02/16/2004 - 14:33

:) Great answers Tom, the telephone line can also allow remote control communications via modem. Your TAD as well, Also the beauty of it is that it can all be set to auto detect what it is it needs to do. Cheap communications, and somewhat secure.

As for the VCR, you can also broadcast with it, 2 channels of RF modulators are available. All that is needed is a simple combiner, and of course 2 decks..1 for each channel, the signal can be distributed through the home/studio, or facility with a small distribution amp.

The maximizing of any piece of gear makes common sense. If money is no object, well... go for broke, but even so, is it ethical?

:D I'll take a Tuna Sub, with L T P & Japs!

--Rick

anonymous Tue, 02/17/2004 - 08:13

Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:
I can tell you from experience you cannot be a recording engineer and a performer at the same time so you may have to add to that the services of an independent engineer to record you in your own space which will again run up the cost(s)

Bullplop.... puuuuure bullplop.

DAW + Wireless mouse + Decent sized monitor = recording yourself.

1. Setup up tracks
2. Sit at instrument, or put on instrument
3. Put on headphones
4. Click record with mouse

and repeat. I don't see any issue here. I record all my own material. Drums, bass, guitar, vocals, synth, whatever.

If you have the skills you don't need a seperate engineer, they just get in the way and hamper your creativity.