Kurt Foster, post: 442840, member: 7836 wrote: Kevin, it's very simple. not rocket science by any means. cardioid mics reject sounds from the rear. they still pick up on the sides and unless you have absorption on the walls any room will have reflections, some of which are still going to come from the sides and the direction of where the mic is pointed. you may assume anything but that's not going to make it true. just put the mics up in the room and record something. does it sound icky? room treatments to dampen the reflections is the answer. either that or record in a room that is large enough to yield more desirable reflections.

and i reiterate, the performances and the songs are nice and that's what most important. as a demo it's fine. i really doubt ant perspective client is going to say, "What the hell is that room sound?" :love:

Oh ... I get that, Kurt. Not everything is going to be rejected, but the direct sound is going to dominate the sonic impact, and the room sound is background nominal ... to the point of moot impact on the overall sound.

MOST of the folks out there would wonder what the heck we're even talking about. :D

I DO hear it on the drums (and my aforementioned lead vocal) ... where it is most noticeable. That's why I was trying to hide it w/ alternate means. As I said ... no changing the drums now. (I can redo my vocal w/o any trouble)

So my thought is simply, I guess, what reverb might best assist in hiding the original room sound?

I AM btw ... in full agreement w/ the need to cut back on the h hat and the cymbals ... they WERE too prominent.

kevinwhitect, post: 442841, member: 11453 wrote:
So my thought is simply, I guess, what reverb might best assist in hiding the original room sound?

nothing will hide room sound. it's already baked in. you will only add ambiance.

kevinwhitect, post: 442841, member: 11453 wrote: As I said ... no changing the drums now.

lesson learned? (i hope)

Kurt Foster, post: 442843, member: 7836 wrote: lesson learned? (i hope)

We'll see. I've got three rooms to choose from ... and I've got the drums in the middle sized one (13x15 as it turns out). I've another room I can put him in that is 14 x 22 ... but again, it's home recording ... so there will be no room treatment.

I'll just have to deal as best I can.

large boom mic stands and moving blankets. cheap portable and it works. place the stands around the drums with the boom forming a tee. drape the blankets over the stands booms. season to taste.

http://www.infamousmusician.com/how-to-make-cheap-simple-mobile-gobos-from-mic-stands-moving-blankets/

kevinwhitect, post: 442844, member: 11453 wrote: and I've got the drums in the middle sized one (13x15 as it turns out). I've another room I can put him in that is 14 x 22 ...

ceiling height?

DonnyThompson, post: 442848, member: 46114 wrote: ceiling height?

8 ft.

Kurt Foster, post: 442845, member: 7836 wrote: large boom mic stands and moving blankets. cheap portable and it works. place the stands around the drums with the boom forming a tee. drape the blankets over the stands booms. season to taste.

http://www.infamousmusician.com/how-to-make-cheap-simple-mobile-gobos-from-mic-stands-moving-blankets/

Do they have to be moving blankets? I've got a LOT of just regular ones. :D

Thanks, K!

That was a great remind, K ... I really was just kidding.

Pulled back the hat and the OHs ... then remastered. Any better?

kevinwhitect, post: 442891, member: 11453 wrote: Pulled back the hat and the OHs ... then remastered. Any better?

what version?

audiokid, post: 442923, member: 1 wrote: what version?

I did it on both tracks. I pulled the hi hat back dramatically (6-9db), and the OHs slightly (3-6db) ... for I figured that's mostly where the room sound was being picked up.

kevinwhitect , I find your songs recording a bit crude and unrefined. But wait, I find that to be very positive.
With all the overmixed/overprocessed recording we hear, I find it refreshing that what we here is the fine moment you guys lived together ;)
There isn't much I would change.
In any case, you could have a big surprise if those tracks were mixed by other members here.. I'd be glad to give it a shot if you want (pv me) ;)

pcrecord, post: 442928, member: 46460 wrote: kevinwhitect , I find your songs recording a bit crude and unrefined. But wait, I find that to be very positive.
With all the overmixed/overprocessed recording we hear, I find it refreshing that what we here is the fine moment you guys lived together ;)
There isn't much I would change.
In any case, you could have a big surprise if those tracks were mixed by other members here.. I'd be glad to give it a shot if you want (pv me) ;)

Thank you. Raw unadulterated live is exactly what I was going for.

Both these pieces were recorded all at once, live and in the moment. We laid the tracks on two separate nights in under an hour's time each. "You Monkeys" is roughly the 4th pass take, "Fallin" is the 2nd take. I think "Fallin" took maybe a half hour to track.

The intent was to present as accurate a real representation of what we sound like when we play live. Live is live. There's no polish.

I have the drummer in his own isolation room (which evidently sonically sucks) :D . He is miked. I've got the bass player and electric guitarist in another room. They both go direct. I employed modeled amps on the bass player, but the guitarist goes in through his amp straight ... and the effects are what he plays live. In the third room, our keyboardist goes into the DAW via midi, and we use soft synths. The acoustic guitarist went direct from amp on "You Monkeys", but I close miked him (AT4050) on "Fallin" ... since the keyboardist is not making any noise per se but for a few keyclicks.

This winds up as only the drums, primarily, being miked ... reducing ambient influence (which is a good thing considering the room!) :D (I am going to work on improving that)

We do two step the process: Music bed first, vocals after. There is no auto tuning allowed. If it's slightly off? That's live.

You Monkeys did not have a click track to follow (drummer had never drummed to one before), but following that result (we wound up a quarter measure off track), I demanded he learn how to play to a click track on "Fallin" ... which actually resulted in a tighter, simpler play pattern out of him.

I am always happy to entertain outside contributions. I harbor no sacred cows. Music is people, and I find the more people involved, the better the music made. I'll drop you my email privately for an offline connection.

kevinwhitect, post: 442929, member: 11453 wrote: Both these pieces were recorded all at once, live and in the moment. We laid the tracks on two separate nights in under an hour's time each. "You Monkeys" is roughly the 4th pass take, "Fallin" is the 2nd take. I think "Fallin" took maybe a half hour to track.

The intent was to present as accurate a real representation of what we sound like when we play live. Live is live. There's no polish.

And there's not a thing wrong with that, Kevin... in fact, it's a sound that is desired by many professionals; along with the natural sound, there's also the "gel", and the feel and the groove that naturally happens when you get a band playing all at once.
The only thing that needs to be addressed now, is to find a way to capture those all-at-once performances with the best sonics that you can.

I think your songs are solid. I think your mic selections are also solid...I could use any of those mics you have and be plenty happy to have them.

So, this leaves the space you are recording in as your primary downfall... unfortunately, the room(s) are less than good-sounding, and adding artificial reverbs on top of the room's natural sound ( as it stands now) is not helping.

I don't normally suggest this - and I may even take some heat for it from our in-house acoustics guru @Brien Holcombe - but based on what I'm hearing, I think your best bet at this point may be to deaden the room as much as you can, using broad-band ( "BB") absorption methods ( meaning across the full frequency spectrum), which would include some bass trapping, some mid-range attenuation, and some 1" auralex for your top end above 1k...
( it's also possible that you might need some diffusion as well ), and then rely on various good sounding artificial reverbs for your space/depth, and "live" sound.

The reason I'd suggest BB absorbers, is because you don't know that your only issues reside in the upper frequencies ( flutter echo, "pinging", etc.) In fact, it's probable that you'll find that your room also has low/low-mid frequency problems as well, with standing waves occurring in your lower spectrum... and these frequencies can also make things very difficult to get good-sounding captures, and, to get accurate mixes as well. They also can't be treated by using packing blankets hung around the room, or even with your "typical" commercially-made 1" absorption tiles, either. These frequencies require thickness, mass and density to tame ( as well as correct placement in the room).
Typical 1" / 2" foam tiles don't have those necessary characteristics.

You may want to consider picking up

• Rod Gervais' Book: Home Recording Studio Build It Like The Pros

This well-written, how-to book by an RO member, has become a sort of "acoustics bible" around here ( and on other pro audio sites as well); it's universally respected, and has been extremely helpful to those ( myself included) who have home recording rigs.
Many of the treatments he talks about are also very affordable, and some of the materials are even available at your local home improvement store(s), and they are all relatively easy to install, too.

Trust me when I tell you that I am THEEE least-skilled and least-knowledgeable home improvement/construction guy... in the world. :confused:
Put it this way: If I can do it - and I'm the guy who's wife used to cue-up 911 on speed dial, the second I picked up a power tool :eek: ( wait a sec...strike that, that should read "any" tools), LOL - then anyone can do it. ;)

FWIW
-d.

DonnyThompson, post: 442973, member: 46114 wrote: So, this leaves the space you are recording in as your primary downfall... unfortunately, the room(s) are less than good-sounding, and adding artificial reverbs on top of the room's natural sound ( as it stands now) is not helping.

Before going wild on room treatement, I would like to point out that mic placement should be studied in deep first. Moving overhead mics 1' closer to the drum will impact the sound greatly.. Also, using less compression often reduce room sound. (so many variables...) ;)

That said, Kevin and I agreed on colaborating on the mix of 1 song. I do not have the pretention of being any better than him, but having a second opinion on our babies is always a good thing.

Once I work on his raw tracks, I'll get a better idea of what's going on. But I already have the impression that the recording is nice like it is and just need minor tweaks.

Ha. Thanks Donny!

Small world.

Want to know who the first drummer was to sign on to my new band, but then had to back out due to getting to suddenly crazy busy with work projects? Rod Gervais.

We're old friends. He lives about 20 or so minutes from me. He keeps promising me he's going to send me a signed copy of his book, but I've yet to see it. :D

He also knows that I don't have any room treatment ... anywhere, and we've spoken at length as to how I get such clean mixes w/o it. That said, this is the first time I've tracked drums here ... and slapback/room sound is real! It's also how I knew that there just isn't a ton of it coming through the vocal mikes. I've been recording in these spaces for over a decade doing it the same way. PCR has the original untreated tracks. He can verify. :D

I probably should call my buddy over and have him make some suggestions. Since the rooms primarily serve as bedrooms, any treatment is mandated as temporary only ... as per "the one who must be obeyed". I'm absolutely certain he'll have some excellent suggestions though.

I've only embarked on the recording project in the last couple weeks. We started as a unit last February and had to quickly learn an hour and a half of material to get out live for the summer concert circuit. Being all original, we don't play regular gigs in clubs. It doesn't pay well, and we're all asleep by 10 pm ... even on stage. It doesn't make for a good show.

This is our attempt to document what we've done so far, as well as get some marketing promo readied for next year. It wasn't easy getting gigs saying, "Um. No. We don't have anything recorded, but trust us ... we're really good."

We got a lot of, "Thanks for contacting us. We'll be in touch ... like never."

Over the cold season, instead of our large drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar and two keyboard players set up, we pare down to acoustic guitar, bass, electric, and hand percussion and do a vocal oriented modified acoustic styled performance of our material, with some covers interspersed. Our cover of "7 Bridges Road" is killer.

Instead of an hour and a half set up, we can be up and running in 20 minutes. It allows us to get into more spaces with less intrusion and make a name for ourselves as a vocal oriented versatile unit.

We're meeting again tonight to record another bluesy tune. I WILL be getting some sonic treatment hung ... as some treatment should sound better than what I've currently.

Also ... I like the suggestion PCRecord made about dropping the OHs down. I do have them at a height of roughly 7 ft up over the drums, and that may be unnecessarily high ... allowing more room into the mics than desired.

When the primary role of the room isn't recording, adding a few gobos is often enough to control things a bit..
I built myself for less than 100$, the feet are removable so when I don't use them as gobo, I hang them on the walls. ;)

pcrecord, post: 442979, member: 46460 wrote: When the primary role of the room isn't recording, adding a few gobos is often enough to control things a bit..
I built myself for less than 100$, the feet are removable so when I don't use them as gobo, I hang them on the walls. ;)

That's not a bad idea at all. I actually have some 6 ft high office cubicle dividers in my basement. I'd forgotten they were there until you mentioned the gobos.

kevinwhitect, post: 442990, member: 11453 wrote: I actually have some 6 ft high office cubicle dividers in my basement.

those would be a great solution. i used them in my studio. i took the feet off them and drilled holes through the frames and screwed them to the walls of my drum iso room. they won't do much towards bass trapping but you aren't recording deep bass in the room and you can always put a moving blanket over the kick drum to isolate the drum from any nulls and peaks. i don't think nodes are so much of a problem as just getting the early reflections out of your recordings.

bookcases, heavy drapes, overstuffed chairs, couches and carpet / throw rugs can also tame a home environment.

I got to work on Kevin's track yesterday evening. I should say the recordings were not bad at all.
The drum tracks were not so roomy as you can think. Even if they could have been more focused, I'm guessing a bit less compression would have made it unnoticed.
The only track that was filled with uncontroled room was the vocal. it's a bit intriguing since the bac vocals weren't roomy at all..

I sent him my take on a mix, he will decide if he want's to present it here or not

kevinwhitect : on tip I could make is not to use gates so much or put the gates at 50-60% reduction. Live bleeding is not some bad thing we must get rid of. If mic placement is done well, bleeds could give a great ambience effect. One trick Fab Dupont gives it to listen to the bleed in each microphone. If you can make the bleed sound good with the mic choice and placement, there is no need to remove or fear it !! ;)

pcrecord, post: 443017, member: 46460 wrote: I got to work on Kevin's track yesterday evening. I should say the recordings were not bad at all.
The drum tracks were not so roomy as you can think. Even if they could have been more focused, I'm guessing a bit less compression would have made it unnoticed.
The only track that was filled with uncontroled room was the vocal. it's a bit intriguing since the bac vocals weren't roomy at all..

I sent him my take on a mix, he will decide if he want's to present it here or not

kevinwhitect : on tip I could make is not to use gates so much or put the gates at 50-60% reduction. Live bleeding is not some bad thing we must get rid of. If mic placement is done well, bleeds could give a great ambience effect. One trick Fab Dupont gives it to listen to the bleed in each microphone. If you can make the bleed sound good with the mic choice and placement, there is no need to remove or fear it !! ;)

Nonetheless ... the bluesy piece we did last night got gobos and blankets on the drums. Like you say, PCR ... "Don't you want the best recording like I do?"

Why, yes. Yes I do!! :D

Once I get PCR's permission to publish his incredible mix to Soundcloud, I will share it here. As I told him, I don't tell folks often that I like their mix better than mine, but ... in fact ... I do. He really captured it ... and I adored his attention to certain details that I simply didn't take the time to dive into (time alignment of the drums -- capturing Frank's (our drummer) Zappa-esque delivery on the world "suffer" -- and the other little add ins I caught).

I made a demo mix, PCR made a real mix.

In a spot of fun ... because we again went quickly through the recording process last night and had time left over after dinner (we always do dinner together when we record and practice) ... here's a cover tune we threw together.

It's 4 guys and a mic. Oh ... and a guitar.

[MEDIA=soundcloud]kevin-white-2/who-we-are-7-bridges-road

Here's PCR's mix:

[MEDIA=soundcloud]kevin-white-2/who-we-are-fallin-marco-primeau-mix

The lead vocal room bleed was total experimentation w/ a semi-omni setting on the mic in a very "reverberate" room btw ... and even I thought I went a bit overboard. Future tracks will not suffer that treatment. :D

kevinwhitect, post: 443018, member: 11453 wrote: It's 4 guys and a mic. Oh ... and a guitar.

Was it an omni configuration ? It sounds like you all were a bit far from the mic.. but you know what ? I like it !! You guys rock ! very nice vocals :love:

kevinwhitect, post: 443025, member: 11453 wrote: The lead vocal room bleed was total experimentation w/ a semi-omni setting on the mic in a very "reverberate" room btw ... and even I thought I went a bit overboard. Future tracks will not suffer that treatment. :D

No no, continu to experiment, this is how we discover gems (often by accident) but you could have put a second mic to have a strait signal of the vocal.. in case of the experiment failing you would have a backup.. and even blend them both to taste ;)

Anyway, you and your band gained a follower ;) keep it up !!

pcrecord, post: 443056, member: 46460 wrote: Was it an omni configuration ? It sounds like you all were a bit far from the mic.. but you know what ? I like it !! You guys rock ! very nice vocals :love:

No no, continu to experiment, this is how we discover gems (often by accident) but you could have put a second mic to have a strait signal of the vocal.. in case of the experiment failing you would have a backup.. and even blend them both to taste ;)

Anyway, you and your band gained a follower ;) keep it up !!

Yep ... and Omni tube mic set full Omni. We stood in a circle.

JJ ... who carries the highest part, was closest ... because he sings the softest. He was about a foot away. Frank, our drummer is the tenor soloist in the middle section. He sings the loudest. He was probably 6 feet (rule of the 3s). Carl (baritone) was, I think, too close for his part at 3 ft back. He's a bit too prominent in the blend.

I was also about 3 ft back singing the lead part and playing the guitar.

We were all standing next to a stairwell. :D

kevinwhitect, post: 443020, member: 11453 wrote: Here's PCR's mix:

[MEDIA=soundcloud]kevin-white-2/who-we-are-fallin-marco-primeau-mix

This sounds really good. I would take just a smudge of compression off the intro vocals but even if you don't, its sounds really good. Nice work.

audiokid, post: 443058, member: 1 wrote: This sounds really good. I would take just a smudge of compression off the intro vocals but even if you don't, its sounds really good. Nice work.

I second that opinion! PCR's attention to detail really is evident in the mix improvement. He completely surprised me with his mix placement, and I wholly admit his mix was head and shoulders above my own.

kevinwhitect, post: 443059, member: 11453 wrote: I second that opinion! PCR's attention to detail really is evident in the mix improvement. He completely surprised me with his mix placement, and I wholly admit his mix was head and shoulders above my own.

Stop that, I'm gonna blush.. :LOL:

I'm sure you can do the job as well as I did Kevin.. I just had a step ahead by not being involve so much like you are.
I took the tracks with a detached approach and mixed it with the vision I had of your goals.
Having someone else mix and master our music is greatly underestimated.

Also it was a gamble on my part, because my taste could have been far from yours...

BTW ; I should have time to incorporate the new electric guitar track early this week ;)

pcrecord, post: 443064, member: 46460 wrote: Stop that, I'm gonna blush.. :LOL:

I'm sure you can do the job as well as I did Kevin.. I just had a step ahead by not being involve so much like you are.
I took the tracks with a detached approach and mixed it with the vision I had of your goals.
Having someone else mix and master our music is greatly underestimated.

Also it was a gamble on my part, because my taste could have been far from yours...

BTW ; I should have time to incorporate the new electric guitar track early this week ;)

Looking forward to it! Like your mix, it's a step up from the original. :D

I love the stop break where everything just hangs on the guitar bend before coming back in. The only thing I wanted to hear more - particularly in the outro chorus "fallin, fallin' down" repeats was some more dynamics on the bg vocals like a louder accent on "Faa..." on each "fallin'" and then the second "fallin" being a bit louder "with the peak on "dooowwwwnnnn" with the dynamic volume dropping on that descending pitch ---- but not too much -- more subtle but still present. Would the compressor have prevented that kind of dynamic here if it was part of the performances?

DogsoverLava, post: 443083, member: 48175 wrote: I love the stop break where everything just hangs on the guitar bend before coming back in. The only thing I wanted to hear more - particularly in the outro chorus "fallin, fallin' down" repeats was some more dynamics on the bg vocals like a louder accent on "Faa..." on each "fallin'" and then the second "fallin" being a bit louder "with the peak on "dooowwwwnnnn" with the dynamic volume dropping on that descending pitch ---- but not too much -- more subtle but still present. Would the compressor have prevented that kind of dynamic here if it was part of the performances?

Proper compression doesn't negate the perception of dynamic, it just lessens the dynamic range ... so if done incorrectly, everything sounds the same ... just in a narrower range. If done well, then the perception of your suggested dynamic should come through. We did time the slur down (on 4 to 1) ... but we didn't address the dynamic of the singing in the manner you speak of.

kevinwhitect, post: 443084, member: 11453 wrote: Proper compression doesn't negate the perception of dynamic, it just lessens the dynamic range ... so if done incorrectly, everything sounds the same ... just in a narrower range. If done well, then the perception of your suggested dynamic should come through. We did time the slur down (on 4 to 1) ... but we didn't address the dynamic of the singing in the manner you speak of.

thanks Kevin - I'm still learning how these elements work so wasn't sure if compression was a factor in that regard. Really dug the song!.