Frango, post: 463519, member: 50393 wrote: How very perceptive Paul and I read/enjoyed it twice. I too can relate how budding sound desk operators think they have to keep changing our levels once the F.O.H. and fold back levels are set. Over most of my 60 years as a jazz muso, we managed our own levels and pulled back when needed.
I too play double bass, guitar, banjo, keyboard and used to play trom and sax and played thousands of jazz gigs, many musical productions, Church bands and other jazz gigs etc . Many younger operators with rock band mentality now have the belief that drummers should dominate the balance of all genre bands and even have the cheek to mike them. :(

One of my sound op jobs was with the late Ronnie verrell the great jazz drummer and big band animal. I looked at the mic box and looked the kit and he looked me in the eye and said “stuck son?” I said “you know best Ronnie, what do you think?”. He asked how many it held? I told him 1200. He looked around and pointed to the akg 451. That one just above my forehead. Just one, I asked? It’ll be fine son he said. And it was! One fader and it blended in so well. Every show after that he’d just smile at me and give me a thumbs up and I did the same again. Classical guitarists and pianists, double bass players and any weird instruments are the same - ask the experts. A very technologically advanced place near me have a virtually silent big band. All behind screens. Perfect quality and volume but they all hate it, playing in a fish bowl isolated from the world. It is however, a well paid salaried gig so they do it. Finding deps for holidays and illness is troublesome. Few want to stand in!

Enjoyed recent posts by Paul
Just looking back at this topic. GeckoMusic started it eleven years ago and all the to and fro since about why drums are too loud in Churches. (And there was another topic about drummers too loud generally wherever.)
Looking back over the last 70 years since age 6 that I can remember, it has now just occurred to me that its only been in say the last 10 or 15 years that theres been an considerable infiltration of drums into Church music groups and WHY?

Many posts presented ways to tackle their indiscreet loudness and one wonders if there was a survey across the board if the majority of parishioners and churches might vote them out to go back where they came from. i.e. any other genre.
There are hymns and songs that drummers are tacit because of the sacred nature and slow tempo and drums are just not appropriate.
In the Church musical environment, surely there's sufficient rhythm, chords, and harmonies etc happening with enough instruments to obviate the need for distracting drums that don't exhibit any musical notes?

Others have berated my expressions that drummers are not really musicians, but when it comes to priorities, drummers on their own couldn't provide what a congregation needs, in regards to the previous sentence. Many have berated out of context re the CHURCH genre that started this topic.
And in regards to "go back to where they came from"- - i.e. any other genre than Church, could relieve the angst that started this topic anyway.
When drummers lack the sensitivity so often quoted to play appropriately in Church, their sensitivity becomes conversely obvious when opinions are expressed as to their need in Church. Mmmm watch this space.
As for drummers roles in rock and other bands- - -sure , go for it.

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Wow!

The reason for drums is simple. Liturgical music has developed (to be honest, it's been doing this for a long time, just a lot of progress in a short time.

I am not remotely interested in religion. I respect it though, as so many friends are involved - and these are nice people, not remotely weird or sectarian. Just normal people who happen to believe in God, and like the current trend of churches embracing similar people who like a decent tune, and the kind of music you can hum and join in with. My upbringing was traditional Church of England, and as a kid I was in the choir. Taught me loads about harmony, and musical structure - BUT - was mega dull, and music for me ended up0 being a source of income for most of my life in one way or another.

My gentle brush with modern church music, which isn't as developed as the US situation, is that the only thing religious about it, as compared to any other genre of music, are the lyrics. So if somebody writes a religious rock ballad, the idea of disposing of the drummer is madness. Sing a hymn with a pipe organ and the drummer is not needed. Nor is the sax player or guitarist. The bass player has little to do even if he had an upright and bow. Swap the organ for a piano and it might need a bit of help - who from? Probably a rhythm section, just like any music genre. As soon as you move the music to more contemporary styles, and put a bit of God and love your neighbour lyrics to the music, you need the drummer. What would Sister Act have been like without the drummer. Drums have not infiltrated religious music - modern music has, and brought with it PA systems, microphones, lights, proper staging, IEM systems and razzmatazz. Don't blame the drummer.

What you cannot have in my humble opinion is 80% of the instrumentation for ANY genre - it ruins the result. A string quartet without the cello and an extra violin sounds weird. A recorder consort with only descant recorders sounds like a school hall class. A string quartet with a drummer would be horrible.

I don't think it's church music that's the problem here, just that we now want to be able to perform Highway to Hell in a building not suitable for the genre.

About 10 years ago, the elders at my church (an oldskool mostly concrete and glass structure) asked my about this problem too. They wanted a plexiglass screen, as they had seen it in some other churches. I told them that 1) unless it was an enclosed box, it wouldn't help much because the sound would leak anyway, and 2) if it was an enclosed box, they would need adequate monitoring and additional channels of sound reinforcement (neither of which they had) because the drummer wouldn't be able to hear the rest of the band. My suggestion was 1) overhaul and tune the drums, because it was in such bad shape that no matter what one did with it, it would sound like crap; and 2) teach the drummers to play in a manner more cognizant of the environment. Unfortunately, they went ahead and got the screens, which didn't solve the problem.

A year later, they asked permission to use a processional I had written for the church anniversary. I said of course, IF I get to play on it and an offertory of my choice, with my own kit, without the screen. This was obviously an attempt to prove them wrong. They agreed, and everything went well. My kit has no muffling, with Remo Ambassadors all over. I tuned my kit a bit higher than usual, like a high jazz tuning, because the reverb in the sanctuary make drums sound soggy. In the end, no one complained about the loudness of my kit and playing, and even complimented my performance, which included a rousing cover of Hillsong's "Our God Is Love."

I then volunteered to overhaul the drums at my own expense, and hold a workshop with the drummers on tuning, maintenance, and performance. Alas, none of the regular drummers showed up, just an alternate, and the bass player. To make matters worse, all the work and parts I put in to get it to sound nice was undone in a few months and the kit became crappy again.

Last month, I heard from the Minister of Music that they finally shut down the "praise and worship" services. It turns out the "kids" who so desperately wanted it and felt it would encourage more youths to get involved in the ministry had "grown up", didn't have time for it anymore because of jobs, and simply lost interest because their own musical stagnation.

This is exactly why the church audio industry get into so much trouble. It’s a bit like a theatre trying to put shows on with volunteer technical crews and amateur actors and people to show people to seats BUT with no importance paid to the ability levels. One person who knows their job due to history and their background but far too many who are clueless and have no real interest. Worse still is the level of technology. The importance of religion overrides everything. I really cannot imagine a church buying a saxophone and then giving it to musicians to play. I hate playing anyone else’s sax it’s just not like my own. Why do we treat drummers differently? We give them random kits, we change the tuning and then complain when they don’t turn up to sessions they simply see no sense or benefit in. They drop out yet we’re surprised? My years of dealing with drummers means I respect their musicianship and understand how I need to treat them. Churches live in this weird world where people interfere. I suspect they put up with it because of the positive praise aspect of the role but what lighting person would turn up and discover a new but worse control had been installed without mentioning and then be expected to operate it immediately and do it right and get moaned at for having everything too bright? The way I’m reading these posts is that technical people are insisting artistic people do what they are told and the management work separately making arbitrary decisions and simply not listening to the technical folk. It’s a mess and it’s no wonder people leave. If it was a theatre it would have folded ages ago. None of my drummer friends would work like this. Being TOLD to use certain kit and TOLD how to play? They would walk because it’s insulting. If they are too loud then you have options to discuss with them, not dictate to them!

Eleven years later, it's still the million dollar question (which is to say, the person who can solve this problem to everyone's satisfaction would be very rich). Most drummers hate electronic drums, and there are so many obstacles to acoustic drums in an old-school plaster, glass, stone, and hardwood sanctuary. The drummers with the skill set and level of professionalism required to do the job well aren't all that enthusiastic about a non-paying church gig, bright and early every Sunday morning, loaded with all of these constraints.

A trend in a number of churches in my area has been to transition away from a full drum kit, in favor of a cajon. A cajon can be very musical - and in the right hands can do a nice job replicating kick and snare patterns and allow for expressive fills and flourishes. Compared to a djembe, darbuka, doumbek, or conga; the cajon has a richer, more-controlled thump on the low note and is fairly limited in the decibel level it can produce, which is also a win in a church setting. I typically mic the cajon front and back and get a very satisfying boom out of the rear port and the snare-like crack from the front. The music portion of our service runs between 90dB- 95dB at the mix position, and micing the cajon puts it comfortably in the mix with electric bass, electronic keyboards, acoustic and/or electric guitars, and several vocalists - and sometimes alongside a full kit. But, this particular sanctuary is a modern black-box theater design with above average acoustical properties.

Building an all volunteer band around hand percussion is a double-edge sword. It opens the door for more people to participate (which is good), but that can also lower the bar for caliber of skill required to joinb (obviously bad). Someone who may not have a drum set at home for practice, or may lack the physical endurance, specialized strength, dexterity, and/or "limb independence" required to play a full kit COULD still potentially be an excellent cajon player - as long as they possess a good sense of rhythm. **That’s not to say that simply because a cajon is less physically demanding than a full drum kit, that it doesn't require a high level of skill to play one well. On several occasions where it was determined that having one of the other band members step in with zero percussion experience was better than having no percussionis at all, (a view that I do not share) I got to witness the humbling results. I heard some otherwise capable musicians (keyboard, bass, and guitar players) make an absolute mess of playing a cajon. Had the only option been the full drum kit, they would have never attempted it at all.

you get what you pay for. musicians that play for nothing are worth what they charge. churches that pay the talent have great bands that know how to keep it in line. there are lots of examples of this. i recorded a ton of bands in church down in the Bay Area. some of them really kicked serious ass. major players.

Well - Gloria Gaynor's bass player does freebies for his home church, and I wish I was half as good as he is, but I do take the point. In the UK what seems too happen is that many decent players who support the aim of the church are happy to play for free, up until a paid job comes along and this is where standards can dive.

The funniest church related event I ever was involved in was where a large two trailer tour was booked to come to my 1400 seat theatre. The rider specifically pointed out that NO house crew were required as this duty would be covered by members of local churches. We always put six crew on ins because the unloading point is a long box push to the theatre - around 200m. So we fund six people, and two trailers arrive - full of line array, truss, steeldeck. The production manager says he doesn't need us. We all go to the cafe next to the lorries. two batch of tweed wearing ladies in their 50s and older arrive and it takes 2 to carry the first item - a toolbox. The lorry driver look on in amazement. Showtime is 7.30. It's 1.30. 3pm comes and truck 1 has about 6 ft of cleared space. I go to find the PM and tell him that if we were doing this, we're looking at 4pm to clear the trailers, but the way he's going we may as well cancel. We took over and got the trailer contents into the venue. Fit up with their small own team was going crazily slow. Nobody knew how to open a case, let alone remove the contents - In the end, I lost it and "For F**Ks sake!!!!!!!" popped out. Language young man - I got snapped at. We worked at double our usual speed and the show went up on time. We had had enough and the out loomed. We cleared their kit to the outside of the venue by midnight and we locked up and went home, leaving the trailers empty, and while we felt bad, contractually, we weren't required. We were closed next day, but security camera footage showed them leaving at 12 noon, with not a single old lady evident. PM and the 2 of their tech crew loaded the entire show. Our first experience of a religious tour and we've not rebooked anything like this again. Mega investment in equipment - no understanding of how to do anything properly.

Great story, Paul!

In the churches I deal with out here in the boondocks, they're never going to get someone 'in from the road' to sit in with the band. The kind of music professional they get around here are music teachers from the local university and high schools - who all read sheet music quite well. Many of them can't play a note unless it's written down, but they can read charts in their sleep. Plus, they're accustomed to getting up early for their teaching jobs.

The ability to read music is a real plus for a church musician. And as I've mentioned elsewhere, church bands don't have the advantage of playing the same 30 - 40 songs every week like a club act that can commit them to memory. Church bands tend to play 4 or 5 songs per week and then may go weeks, months, or years before they play one of those songs again. And when they revisit it weeks (months or years) later, they may have to do it in a different key to accommodate a different lead vocalist.

Actually this is very similar to the holiday venue industry here. A different set of musicians to the ‘norm’ they may we’ll play rock around the clock but the band leader has written every part out and jim on drums or Jenny on sax can have the night off and somebody walks in and plays their pad. I do a few on bass if I’m free and it’s weird. Often the shows are tracked too so you have count and click in one ear and seemingly random things in the other. I have to concentrate to sight read and you might play nonstop for an hour and when it’s over you have no idea what songs you even played. I watched one a few days later from the audience. Same show. Same tracks. I don’t remember ever playing some of those songs in medleys! I plugged in tone on full and somebody else managed my sound. Hated it. They were happy! Soul destroying.