[quote=Kurt Foster, post: 396445]if he ever posts his solution i would bet it's not anything some of us hadn't tried previously.QUOTE]

Personally, I have never seen this previously. I genuinely think it is a case of "why didn't anybody think of that before".. or maybe not,. I don't know. Never seen it on the net, nor in any studio, nor ever heard about it in the forums.. I could be wrong though. From what I read on this forum, maybe the general reaction to it will be :"Why this? I dont have a hi-hat bleed problem.." I am never the less decided to produce and market the thing on the bases that it works so well, and drums just sound plain better when it is in use. I wish I didn't have to work so much at the studio and had more time to put into it to finish r & d. Oh well

Kurt Foster, post: 396445 wrote: if he ever posts his solution i would bet it's not anything some of us hadn't tried previously.

zblip2, post: 396452 wrote:
Personally, I have never seen this previously. I genuinely think it is a case of "why didn't anybody think of that before".. or maybe not,. I don't know. Never seen it on the net, nor in any studio, nor ever heard about it in the forums.. I could be wrong though. From what I read on this forum, maybe the general reaction to it will be :"Why this? I dont have a hi-hat bleed problem.." I am never the less decided to produce and market the thing on the bases that it works so well, and drums just sound plain better when it is in use. I wish I didn't have to work so much at the studio and had more time to put into it to finish r & d. Oh well

well ... we will never know until you spill the beans. until then i reserve the right to remain skeptical.

Sure, TBH a cleaner snare mic would be fine by me.

I've already got a few fairly esoteric systems cooked up to keep the snare out of the kick drum batter head mic.

Audiofreek, post: 396444 wrote: Originally Posted by Kurt Foster
what Bob said. here's the deal. samples are recorded one hit at a time. live drums have the cymbals and hat going all the time. there will be blood (spill). compression only makes spill worse. i love live drums and there's nothing better than a great drummer but you have to understand there's something wrong with a person who wants to spend a large portion of their lives hitting things. these are damaged people, these drummers. the fact that they are damaged is proven by their willingness to hang around with musicians.

the best studio drummers learn to dig into the snare and toms while playing the cymbals softer. they "mix" themselves. they set the toms flat and low for a better stick attack, put the cymbals up way high to minimize spill as much as possible and place the hat as far as possible from the snare and the kick to minimize spill. a drummer like this can be gated or downward expanded and compressed for more punch with less spill issues.

you're going to run into your bashers of course. i can almost tell how good a drummer is going to be even before they play a hit, by the way there kit is set up. invariably, the basher is going to be the one who sets the ride cymbal 2 inches above the floor tom and places the hat right on top of the snare and then wails away on the brass. a lot of times these cretins have cracked cymbals.

there's not much you can do other than gating / expanding and triggering samples using radical eq to filter the trigger signal or to eq / filter all the lows and much of the mids out of the overheads getting most of the kit through the kick, snare and tom mics. in these cases i usually just turn the hat mic off and only bring up enough of these filtered eqe'd overheads to add some sheen to the cymbals. really a back ak asswrds way to do it but it is sometimes the only solution. somtimes it takes both eq filters and gating triggering replacement hits. in DAWs you can just draw out everytnig between drum hits and then trigger replacment samples.

This quote should be the forward for any "how to play studio drums" tutorial.

I must disagree!
Many sound engineers seem to forget that it isn't about them and what they do. It's about the artist who wants to express himself with his/her music. If a drummer needs his hi-hat to be low because it's the way he's most comfortable while playing, then it's his right to do so. If he's hitting the cymbals hard, then it's his way of playing (whether it's good or not is another thing...).
In the end, it's the performance that counts. And it's YOUR job to make it sound as good as possible.

You wouldn't tell a painter how to paint his pictures so they look best in a certain lighting. You take the picture as it is and adjust the lighting to compliment the picture as good as possible.
Or, to stay in the music realms, you wouldn't tell a singer to squeeze in a corner with his face to the wall while singing just because his voice sounds so much better in that particular corner. He would feel uncomfortable and that would interfere with his performance.

That doesn't mean that you can't make suggestions to the musician. But you can't expect a drummer to change his well-known and comfortable setup and then play a perfect take right away.

So stop whining about drummers who "don't know what they're doing" and start thinking about what you as a service provider can do to make the best out of the artist's performance.
(No offense intended! :-)

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: I must disagree!
Many sound engineers seem to forget that it isn't about them and what they do. It's about the artist who wants to express himself with his/her music.

That's precisely the point. So since it isn't about sound engineering, but instead what the musicians are coming out with, if something is sounding rough, then you don't try to fix it with engineering tricks.

I've worked with quite a few quality drummers. They love having stuff explained to them about how to get stuff to sound good. They complain if it sounds poor. Proper musicians are into playing the right part in the right way, and can adapt what they're doing. The better the musician, the better and quicker they adapt.

Obviously sometimes you've just got to work with what you've got.

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: If a drummer needs his hi-hat to be low because it's the way he's most comfortable while playing, then it's his right to do so.

Yea obviously if somebody can't play for shit with something changed, you put it back where they had it before. Somebody with studio experience will already have everything spread out, cymbals up high, drums tuned properly etc.

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: If he's hitting the cymbals hard, then it's his way of playing (whether it's good or not is another thing...).
In the end, it's the performance that counts. And it's YOUR job to make it sound as good as possible.

Thinner cymbals is another solution.

The point is that good drummers have dynamic control, and get a good mix on the kit. Crappy drummers don't have that control, and no amount of mixing trickery will solve that problem.

Same with kick drum sound. Or snare sound. If the drummer can't tune or play the drum properly, it'll never sound right. There's no magic plugin (although when presented with the "wow... that's terrible" sound, some people do just pull out some drumagog stuff and start replacing things with samples).

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: You wouldn't tell a painter how to paint his pictures so they look best in a certain lighting. You take the picture as it is and adjust the lighting to compliment the picture as good as possible.

TBH I don't know of any painters who work under fluorescent (terrible) or tungsten (passable but no blue). People who do looking on a professional basis tend to figure out quite quickly that daylight is the right stuff to be working with. If I did detect that a painter was messing up his paintings due to an environmental problem in his studio which was preventing his pictures from translating to a show or a photoshoot, sure I'd tell him what to fix. In future. In the meantime, work with what you've got.

Hopefully a musician has more flex in 'em than a finished painting.

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: Or, to stay in the music realms, you wouldn't tell a singer to squeeze in a corner with his face to the wall while singing just because his voice sounds so much better in that particular corner. He would feel uncomfortable and that would interfere with his performance.

I have even gone so far as to put singers in a wardrobe with the coats. Budget vocal booth. Worked quite well.

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: But you can't expect a drummer to change his well-known and comfortable setup and then play a perfect take right away.

With the right player, sure you can.

Not only that, I can perform such feats myself.

ouzo77, post: 396482 wrote: So stop whining about drummers who "don't know what they're doing" and start thinking about what you as a service provider can do to make the best out of the artist's performance.
(No offense intended! :-)

Mmm, it's not really a question of "whining" that it's impossible to get a good sound.

However, it's entirely true that people with 10 or 15 years of studio drumming experience don't make basic errors in how they play or configure their kit which will ultimately result in a poor sound. With an acoustic sound source, you can only work with what's there, truth is there's no fixing stuff in post that's broken in the room. That's the first place that one should start fixing things. If a guitar is out of tune, it needs tuning. Same with a drum. Same with things being in or out of time. You send somebody out to practise the part to a metronome. Fix problems at the source. If something is causing a problem, that's what needs fixing. Usually everybody can hear what's "shit" sounding, they complain when they hear it, and fixing it is often a question of somebody playing different, or doing something to their instrument.

bishopdante, post: 396490 wrote:
TBH I don't know of any painters who work under fluorescent (terrible) or tungsten (passable but no blue). People who do looking on a professional basis tend to figure out quite quickly that daylight is the right stuff to be working with. If I did detect that a painter was messing up his paintings due to an environmental problem in his studio which was preventing his pictures from translating to a show or a photoshoot, sure I'd tell him what to fix. In future. In the meantime, work with what you've got.

I meant, if you were an exhibitor you wouldn't tell the artist what colors and brushes to use so that the picture would look good with the lighting in the exhibition room. you would adjust the lighting in the room to support the picture.

bishopdante, post: 396490 wrote:
I have even gone so far as to put singers in a wardrobe with the coats. Budget vocal booth. Worked quite well.

You can do that and if the singer/drummer/artist goes along and does a good or excellent performance that's okay. But you can't expect him/her to do that.

bishopdante, post: 396490 wrote:
With the right player, sure you can.

Not only that, I can perform such feats myself.

A good drummer can play on any drum set and still get a great performance. But how many good drummers do you know...?
Most of the drummers I know can't play a straight and grooving 4/4 on their own kit. Let alone on one that is set up differently than the one they're used to.

bishopdante, post: 396490 wrote:
Mmm, it's not really a question of "whining" that it's impossible to get a good sound.

However, it's entirely true that people with 10 or 15 years of studio drumming experience don't make basic errors in how they play or configure their kit which will ultimately result in a poor sound. With an acoustic sound source, you can only work with what's there, truth is there's no fixing stuff in post that's broken in the room. That's the first place that one should start fixing things. If a guitar is out of tune, it needs tuning. Same with a drum. Same with things being in or out of time. You send somebody out to practise the part to a metronome. Fix problems at the source. If something is causing a problem, that's what needs fixing. Usually everybody can hear what's "shit" sounding, they complain when they hear it, and fixing it is often a question of somebody playing different, or doing something to their instrument.

Experienced drummers will know how to play in a recording situation and could/would adjust their kit/playing to get a better sound, because it wouldn't really affect their performance.
But inexperienced ones are a different matter. Change their familiar set up and their playing will fall apart. And given that studio time is expensive you will have to deal with the musician's skills as they are.
So better put up with some hi-hat/cymbal bleed and maybe get the better performance than having great sounding drums that don't groove.

ouzo77, post: 396496 wrote: Most of the drummers I know can't play a straight and grooving 4/4 on their own kit. Let alone on one that is set up differently than the one they're used to.

If that's the problem, one need not get into the technicalities of microphone spill, that one can be fixed with a practise pad, a good drum teacher, and a metronome. Takes 6 months to a year, no more than an hour a day is necessary, although more is good. Proper real practise, not noodling. If people have natural talent, quicker results, on the other hand no aptitude whatsoever, marginal results.

When people go into a session, one expects them to be able to play. If just one part is flaky, but the player is OK, it can be prepared properly in a few hours with a metronome in the lounge in a short enough time to sound OK. If they can't play well enough in general, the correct method is to tell them so, and re-book for 6 months later. If they're a band, send them off on a tour.

bishopdante, post: 396498 wrote: If they can't play well enough in general, the correct method is to tell them so, and re-book for 6 months later. If they're a band, send them off on a tour.

Unfortunately most people don't want to hear something like this... :-)

There are obviously two factors for a great recording. The artist and the recording engineer.
In a perfect world the musicians know what they are doing and come well prepared to the recording session. They are open for suggestions and happy to learn new things.
The recording engineer does also know what he's doing. He listens to what the artist has to say, supports him in every aspect of the recording process and gives valuable tips on how to improve the performance and sound without forcing his opinion.
But since it's not a perfect world you deal with what you get and make the best of it.

I am a musician who has learned over the years how to make acceptable recordings. Though I mostly record myself I have recorded other people and bands and have come to know both sides. So I do understand that having to deal with bad musicians and/or big egos can be frustrating for an engineer. But I don't agree with what has been posted before, that the musician has to adapt or change his playing to get a good sound. The musicians part is the performance, to make it sound good is the responsibility of the engineer. Though both sides can make a contribution to either part it is the engineers job to support the musician. Not the other way around.

ouzo77 wrote: I must disagree!
Many sound engineers seem to forget that it isn't about them and what they do. It's about the artist who wants to express himself with his/her music. If a drummer needs his hi-hat to be low because it's the way he's most comfortable while playing, then it's his right to do so.

well i do think it's about me as well as the artist. it's my name and / or my studios name on the record and it's my right not to record them ... i have declined to record many projects and have kicked people out of the studio many times for many reasons.

ouzo77 wrote: If he's hitting the cymbals hard, then it's his way of playing (whether it's good or not is another thing...).
In the end, it's the performance that counts. And it's YOUR job to make it sound as good as possible.

listen to yourself. that is so contradictory. it's not my job to sit in silence suffering through a basher. i am not so horny to record someone or financially needy as to have to subject myself to turd polishing. furthermore, i am more than just another "service provider" or an art gallery operator. i am artist also and if people can't accept that i don't want to work with them. i produce records. as such i seek out TALENT and i don't cast pearls before swine.

ouzo77 wrote: Experienced drummers will know how to play in a recording situation and could/would adjust their kit/playing to get a better sound, because it wouldn't really affect their performance.
But inexperienced ones are a different matter. Change their familiar set up and their playing will fall apart. And given that studio time is expensive you will have to deal with the musician's skills as they are.
So better put up with some hi-hat/cymbal bleed and maybe get the better performance than having great sounding drums that don't groove.

1) you say to put up with hat cymbal bleed but it's exactly those kinds of drummers (inexperienced) who will whine when you cant pull the snare and toms out in the mix. they are their own worst enemies. to compound the problems when there is too much cymbal / hat wash, the guitar players are going to want "more guitars" ... and there you have it ... tons of cymbals, guitars too loud, vocals buried ... undefined snare / kick ... in other words a big mess with no way out. you can't make good recordings that way.

and how would these "artists" as you put it, feel if i (as recording engineer) were "inexperienced" too? given that studio time is expensive it behooves the artists to be at the top of their game. otherwise, don't waste my time. i don't need to deal with sh*t.

2) it's my experience that a drummer that doesn't know how to set up correctly, couldn't groove their way out of a paper bag. come on man .... these folks are idiots!

3) IF i were posed with such a situation, forced to deal with someone like that i would do what i have already said to do 4 times. put up one mic and let them have at it. multiple mics/ tracks and the time it would take to execute would be a waste. no matter what you do, one mic or eleven, it's gonna sound like sh*t! once they were finished i would tell the client, let's get a good drummer in here now.

to summarize; this all comes to the question i often pose; "why do you want to record?" just so you can say you have recorded? or because you have a good song or you have real talent?

hint; some answers are good ones other reasons are poor. really there are way too many people making recordings that shouldn't be. it's all part of the democratization of recording. in years past there were screening processes, producers and a&r people, record companies and publishers who held the keys to the doors of the studios. a basher would never gain entrance.

bottom line, what i said before is how great drum tracks are recorded. you're not going to get a great drum track from a drummer such as you describe. why even bother?

TBH I'd find it very hard to define specific parameters on a perfect world, or have some sort of concrete system of ethics, or roles and responsibilities. What I've found is that if you've got the right capable people, theres's no worries or insecurities, people just get on with it, and good stuff gets made.

Ultimately, the more that people can do, the better. The more skills you have in the room, the better. Skill and experience are naturally supportive. Drummers who are engineers is a good thing. Engineers who can read music, or fix/set up guitars is a good thing. The more skills and experience that people have, the more likely it is that what they collaborate on will be viable, well informed, realistically achievable and fruitful, and that critical flaws will be correctly identified. If a person takes on a task, and cannot perform that task properly, it helps if other people are conscious of that deficiency, and recommends the remedial action or additional skills/people required, rather than just biting their lip and beating their head against a brick wall "ethically".

ouzo77, post: 396499 wrote: Unfortunately most people don't want to hear something like this... :-)

I can think of a few bands I've worked with who didn't want to be told they weren't ready, but were very happy to make a proper success of their work when they really were ready, and were keen enough to do what it took to get ready (which was an enjoyable process comprised largely of playing music), and are enjoying touring the world playing to large audiences at this point. Working on the music is the most important and critical part.

Not to say that an engineer necessarily should be getting involved in a band's music, but ultimately if the music isn't being worked on properly, it's not going to sound right. Somebody has to do that work. It's almost invariably better if it's the musicians doing that work before it hits the microphone, rather than the engineer after it hits the microphone.

bishopdante, post: 396501 wrote: TBH I'd find it very hard to define specific parameters on a perfect world, or have some sort of concrete system of ethics, or roles and responsibilities. What I've found is that if you've got the right capable people, theres's no worries or insecurities, people just get on with it, and good stuff gets made.

Ultimately, the more that people can do, the better. The more skills you have in the room, the better. Skill and experience are naturally supportive. Drummers who are engineers is a good thing. Engineers who can read music, or fix/set up guitars is a good thing. The more skills and experience that people have, the more likely it is that what they collaborate on will be viable, well informed, realistically achievable and fruitful, and that critical flaws will be correctly identified. If a person takes on a task, and cannot perform that task properly, it helps if other people are conscious of that deficiency, and recommends the remedial action or additional skills/people required, rather than just biting their lip and beating their head against a brick wall "ethically".

I can think of a few bands I've worked with who didn't want to be told they weren't ready, but were very happy to make a proper success of their work when they really were ready, and were keen enough to do what it took to get ready (which was an enjoyable process comprised largely of playing music), and are enjoying touring the world playing to large audiences at this point. Working on the music is the most important and critical part.

Not to say that an engineer necessarily should be getting involved in a band's music, but ultimately if the music isn't being worked on properly, it's not going to sound right. Somebody has to do that work. It's almost invariably better if it's the musicians doing that work before it hits the microphone, rather than the engineer after it hits the microphone.

I totally agree with what you are saying.
Maybe I didn't express myself properly. This "perfect world" (in lack of better words) is exactly what you are saying. Everybody contributes to the recording with his skills to make the best record possible. But often the egos get in the way.

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
1) you say to put up with hat cymbal bleed but it's exactly those kinds of drummers (inexperienced) who will whine when you cant pull the snare and toms out in the mix. they are their own worst enemies. to compound the problems when there is too much cymbal / hat wash, the guitar players are going to want "more guitars" ... and there you have it ... tons of cymbals, guitars too loud, vocals buried ... undefined snare / kick ... in other words a big mess with no way out. you can't make good recordings that way.

Well, there you go, hi-hat bleed is killing the music. That's why I invented the darn thing:)

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote: well i do think it's about me as well as the artist. it's my name and / or my studios name on the record and it's my right not to record them ... i have declined to record many projects and have kicked people out of the studio many times for many reasons.

Of course engineering is an art too. And of course you have the right to not record somebody. But usually you don't book musicians to do your art you are booked by musicians to record their music.

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
listen to yourself. that is so contradictory. it's not my job to sit in silence suffering through a basher. i am not so horny to record someone or financially needy as to have to subject myself to turd polishing. furthermore, i am more than just another "service provider" or an art gallery operator. i am artist also and if people can't accept that i don't want to work with them. i produce records. as such i seek out TALENT and i don't cast pearls before swine.

What's contradictory about that? Performance goes first. There's nothing contradictory about that.
If you have enough business to decline projects, good for you. Other engineers might not be so lucky, so they have to deal with it and still make it sound good.

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
1) you say to put up with hat cymbal bleed but it's exactly those kinds of drummers (inexperienced) who will whine when you cant pull the snare and toms out in the mix. they are their own worst enemies. to compound the problems when there is too much cymbal / hat wash, the guitar players are going to want "more guitars" ... and there you have it ... tons of cymbals, guitars too loud, vocals buried ... undefined snare / kick ... in other words a big mess with no way out. you can't make good recordings that way.

There's always drum replacement! :-)

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
and how would these "artists" as you put it, feel if i (as recording engineer) were "inexperienced" too? given that studio time is expensive it behooves the artists to be at the top of their game. otherwise, don't waste my time. i don't need to deal with sh*t.

Again, they pay YOU. Not the other way around. They have the right to have an engineer who knows what he's doing when they pay for him.

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
2) it's my experience that a drummer that doesn't know how to set up correctly, couldn't groove their way out of a paper bag. come on man .... these folks are idiots!

What is the "correct" set up? Drummers usually don't set up their drums for good recording purposes but for effiency and ergonomics. And for the looks of course.
Calling somebody who's not setting up his instrument the way you would like it an idiot is very intolerant and arrogant.

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
3) IF i were posed with such a situation, forced to deal with someone like that i would do what i have already said to do 4 times. put up one mic and let them have at it. multiple mics/ tracks and the time it would take to execute would be a waste. no matter what you do, one mic or eleven, it's gonna sound like sh*t! once they were finished i would tell the client, let's get a good drummer in here now.

What if the drummer is the client?

Kurt Foster, post: 396500 wrote:
to summarize; this all comes to the question i often pose; "why do you want to record?" just so you can say you have recorded? or because you have a good song or you have real talent?

hint; some answers are good ones other reasons are poor. really there are way too many people making recordings that shouldn't be. it's all part of the democratization of recording. in years past there were screening processes, producers and a&r people, record companies and publishers who held the keys to the doors of the studios. a basher would never gain entrance.

bottom line, what i said before is how great drum tracks are recorded. you're not going to get a great drum track from a drummer such as you describe. why even bother?

When somebody wants to record his music, whether it's good, bad, whether he's got talent or not, it's his right to do it. If YOU don't want to record it, it's your decision and your right.
Otherwise it's your job to support him or her to make their music sound as good as possible. Give him tips, tell him how you would do it, but in the end the one who pays decides.

I hate hi-hat bleed...

ouzo77, post: 396508 wrote: Of course engineering is an art too. And of course you have the right to not record somebody. But usually you don't book musicians to do your art you are booked by musicians to record their music.

What's contradictory about that? Performance goes first. There's nothing contradictory about that.
If you have enough business to decline projects, good for you. Other engineers might not be so lucky, so they have to deal with it and still make it sound good.

There's always drum replacement! :-)

Again, they pay YOU. Not the other way around. They have the right to have an engineer who knows what he's doing when they pay for him.

What is the "correct" set up? Drummers usually don't set up their drums for good recording purposes but for effiency and ergonomics. And for the looks of course.
Calling somebody who's not setting up his instrument the way you would like it an idiot is very intolerant and arrogant.

What if the drummer is the client?

When somebody wants to record his music, whether it's good, bad, whether he's got talent or not, it's his right to do it. If YOU don't want to record it, it's your decision and your right.
Otherwise it's your job to support him or her to make their music sound as good as possible. Give him tips, tell him how you would do it, but in the end the one who pays decides.

in one ear and out the other. and herein is exactly why music sounds like sh*t these days.

Kurt Foster, post: 396515 wrote: in one ear and out the other. and herein is exactly why music sounds like sh*t these days.

And here's another arrogant and intolerant remark...
Well I'm sorry they don't record directly to wax cylinders anymore.

"Kurt Foster wrote: in one ear and out the other. and herein is exactly why music sounds like sh*t these days.

ouzo77, post: 396516" wrote: And here's another arrogant and intolerant remark...
Well I'm sorry they don't record directly to wax cylinders anymore.

not sure what you mean about wax cylinders but i sure would prefer to be considered "arrogant & intolerant" than some hack with a mac book and a $250 interface. anyone can make a good mix with samples. no art to that imo. where true talent lies is in capture. FWIW I really perfer 2" tape to wax cylinders.

there was a guy named Pete Best. he was a drummer in a band that auditioned for another guy named George Martin. the first thing Mr. Martin did was to tell the band to sh*t can Best and he replaced him with a guy named Andy White to do the recording.

i guess Sir George Martin was arrogant and intolerant too. Not bad company to keep. Thanks for the off handed complement.

Now that I'm thinking about it, one could build a circular or semicircular baffle that fits onto the hihat stand below the bottom cymbal, which shields the snare microphone from direct sound from the hihats, it could eat up / reflect away quite a bit of the direct sound coming off the bottom hihat, and one could then hide the snare mic under that...

Please let's not let this thread become personnal. I'ts fun to share our views and, if some have different views than ours, well, it's a free world... With all due respect though, Kurt, you seam to be unhappy about certain aspects of the business. Maybe, If I can give advice (I'm going on 50 after all) is maybe not become too "emotionally involved" about other colleagues/musicians flaws... If you see others shortcomings like this, it meens you have the same attitude towards your own shortcomings. Learn to give yourself and others a break. Everybody, even the less talented/gifted are trying to do there best and to pursue a dream. Sometimes you find not so good musicians, that do something that has great artistic value, and some other times, you will here seasoned pros that are producing the most boring music possible. If a drummer bashes on his drum with passion, he may not be a Steve Gadd, but it doesn't men his approach is pointless. What is our role as recording "engineer"? Well, on paper it is to operate the technical part of capturing the music. I think it is the role of the Producer to deal with the artist's capability to make something worth while in the studio. One situation you would want to avoid, is getting blamed for a not so great end result when it isn't your fault. Maybe the trick is to lift the necessary flags during the recording process to warn everybody that something isn't sounding up to standards and that corrective measures should be applied to avoid producing crap.

"zblip2 wrote: Please let's not let this thread become personnal. I'ts fun to share our views and, if some have different views than ours, well, it's a free world...

i agree. note it wasn't me who initially took it to the personal level.

ouzo77 wrote: Calling somebody who's not setting up his instrument the way you would like it an idiot is very intolerant and arrogant.

bishopdante, post: 396520" wrote: Now that I'm thinking about it, one could build a circular or semicircular baffle that fits onto the hihat stand below the bottom cymbal, which shields the snare microphone from direct sound from the hihats, it could eat up / reflect away quite a bit of the direct sound coming off the bottom hihat, and one could then hide the snare mic under that...

not if the drummer places the hi hat so close to the snare that a baffle wouldn't fit which is the scenario we are considering. i'm talking about drummers who have the hat cymbals overlapping the snare so the don't have to move their hands very far. these are ususally the same guys who tilt the toms way up and place the ride above the floor toms too...

look at how Ringo's drums are set up, look at how Hal Blaine sets up, look at how Steve Gadd sets up .... i could go on and on. of course if someone uses only E Drums and sound replacments they wouldn't understand this.

zblip2 wrote: With all due respect though, Kurt, you seam to be unhappy about certain aspects of the business ....

....Maybe, If I can give advice (I'm going on 50 after all) is maybe not become too "emotionally involved" about other colleagues/musicians flaws...

well that's the understatement of the century. i have long been very dissatisfied with the current crop of "talent' out there. not to say there aren't some bright spots but for the most part the golden age of recording and music in general has passed imo. FWIW i am approaching 60.

all this discussion about how to make an acceptable recording from flawed tracks is bullsh*t. what we are discussing here is no better than pitch correcting a singer who can't sing. pure manipulation by the producer and engineer. now that's what i call
"arrogant". get some talent in the live room for cripes sake!

ummm... we need to do that over.

why?

because you went out of pitch.

in what part?

the part where your lips moved.

Attached files

zblip2, post: 396521 wrote: Please let's not let this thread become personnal. I'ts fun to share our views and, if some have different views than ours, well, it's a free world... With all due respect though, Kurt, you seam to be unhappy about certain aspects of the business. Maybe, If I can give advice (I'm going on 50 after all) is maybe not become too "emotionally involved" about other colleagues/musicians flaws... If you see others shortcomings like this, it meens you have the same attitude towards your own shortcomings. Learn to give yourself and others a break. Everybody, even the less talented/gifted are trying to do there best and to pursue a dream. Sometimes you find not so good musicians, that do something that has great artistic value, and some other times, you will here seasoned pros that are producing the most boring music possible. If a drummer bashes on his drum with passion, he may not be a Steve Gadd, but it doesn't men his approach is pointless. What is our role as recording "engineer"? Well, on paper it is to operate the technical part of capturing the music. I think it is the role of the Producer to deal with the artist's capability to make something worth while in the studio. One situation you would want to avoid, is getting blamed for a not so great end result when it isn't your fault. Maybe the trick is to lift the necessary flags during the recording process to warn everybody that something isn't sounding up to standards and that corrective measures should be applied to avoid producing crap.

Very well said!

Kurt Foster, post: 396519 wrote: not sure what you mean about wax cylinders but i sure would prefer to be considered "arrogant & intolerant" than some hack with a mac book and a $250 interface.

Someone who's in the business for so long should know that it's not about the gear, it's about what you do with it. I don't care if it's recorded on 2" tape, on 3.5" hard drive or on a damn tin foil. I don't give a f* if the hi hat bleeds into the snare, if there's a sample on it or if you use a 3000$ mic on the splash cymbal – if it transports emotion and makes me feel good it's perfect!

Comments like yours just show that you are frustrated that musicians can now make good recordings by themselves without having to pay someone who thinks they are total idiots and he is the big recording engineer who knows it all.
And comparing yourself to someone like George Martin is very big-headed. Maybe your records sound like the best recordings ever done. But since I have never heard any of them I really can't tell...

Now let's get on with the original topic. Sorry for the little take-over.

Well, the chief point in this case is that close mic-ing drums with separation usually requires some physical separation in order to cut down spill, particularly in the case of cardioid mics with vents in the back and a bottom hihat cymbal 2 inches from it!

The best way to solve a problem is to work out not to have that problem, treat or eliminate the causes, not the symptoms.

So, you can not have, or mitigate the problem of mix-crippling hihat spill by using any of the following, and some may, for whatever reason, not be on the menu or applicable to that situation:

#1: Don't rely on separation / close mics (my first choice anyway, for reasons of phase / comb filter / realistic sound quality, but relies upon a drummer who plays with a balanced sound, and also a big enough room to get separation from the instruments, or a bunch of iso booths / other rooms) One can also locate the snare drum microphone to the side of the snare shell, there's quite a few options to get the mic further away from the hihat.

#2: Get the drummer to change how they're playing.

#3: Move the offending spilling cymbals further away, it's good practise to spread the kit out. A good drummer shouldn't have a problem with this, sticks give a drummer a significant reach. Too many drummers set the kit up bunched up as though they were playing it with their bare hands, and haven't worked on transitioning played notes around the space in an agile and accurate way.

#4: Use a quieter hihat / louder snare / different sticks etc etc. You can even get snare drums which don't have a shell, so you can stuff a microphone right inside it, although a drum skin does little to block out a hihiat cymbal, but suffice to say that the snare is plenty loud in there. You could get the drummer to use a hot-rod in the strong hand in an extreme case.

#5: Use some sort of post-processing trick such as expansion, gating, side-chain multiband companding, noise-reduction / retouching software etc to tune out the offending spill.

#6: Don't use a conventional hihat at all

#7: Don't use that particular drummer

#8: Don't use a drummer at all, use a percussion section

#9: Use a sequencer / loops etc.
___

Ultimately, in a conventional setup, a drummer will usually play the tempo with their strongest hand, and the snare with the weakest hand. If they haven't developed proper co-ordination and technique, the hihats will be very loud, and the snare drum will be relatively weak. A great drummer will be able to fade out the hihats to nothing over 8 bars without the snare drum changing in volume. It's a lot harder than it sounds. It's the sort of exercise that an experienced teacher will get you to do. If the drums sound badly balanced in the room, it won't be easy to fix in post.

Playing drums really, really well is nowhere near as easy as it sounds.

_____

I'd also say, regarding the mix issue, provisionally, don't put so much compression on the snare drum...

ouzo77, post: 396523 wrote: Very well said!

Someone who's in the business for so long should know that it's not about the gear, it's about what you do with it. I don't care if it's recorded on 2" tape, on 3.5" hard drive or on a damn tin foil. I don't give a f* if the hi hat bleeds into the snare, if there's a sample on it or if you use a 3000$ mic on the splash cymbal – if it transports emotion and makes me feel good it's perfect!

if you don't think it about the gear ... well i don't know what to say to that. it is VERY much about the gear. only bedroom engineers maintain that opinion.

ouzo77, post: 396523 wrote: Comments like yours just show that you are frustrated that musicians can now make good recordings by themselves without having to pay someone who thinks they are total idiots and he is the big recording engineer who knows it all.
And comparing yourself to someone like George Martin is very big-headed.

1) most recordings i have heard from musicians who "self record" are dismal. 2) i never took a cent from someone who didn't have any business in the studio. 3) not in my dreams do i compare my self to Sir George. that was a reference to what a professional recording producer did over 50 years ago.

ouzo77, post: 396523 wrote:
Maybe your records sound like the best recordings ever done. But since I have never heard any of them I really can't tell...

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.cduniver…"]here's[/]="http://www.cduniver…"]here's[/] a link to just one record i did. this was recorded in 3 - 6 hour days (including load in and set ups. first day rhythm tracks (live) and guitar / hammond overdubs. day two Jackie sang. day three we mixed.

sorry for the limited clips but that is all the producer and the record company will allow to be posted on the inter net.

Kurt Foster, post: 396525 wrote:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.cduniver…"]here's[/]="http://www.cduniver…"]here's[/] a link to just one record i did. this was recorded in 3 - 6 hour days (including load in and set ups. first day rhythm tracks (live) and guitar / hammond overdubs. day two Jackie sang. day three we mixed.

sorry for the limited clips but that is all the producer and the record company will allow to be posted on the inter net.

Nice authentic sound Kurt, you captured the live "club" feeling, but with better verbs. Good stuff!

Gear... What to think of it...

My colleague (boss actually) came back from Warner Studios where he mixed a symphonic score out of there 2 000 000$ (no joke) Neve automated board. It sounded obviously pretty good. But he is in the process of remixing everything at the home base studio, inside a pro tools rig. Why? cause he knows the room and knows the speakers, and he's got something he didn't have at Warner: time.

Gear... I know you guys realize that in any good quality DAW, there is more firepower than any pre 1990 studio,.. I have at home for my personal use, a 500$ program (Sonar) loaded up with features anybody would have killed for less then a decade ago,... Seriously, if there is something that is not lacking these days to do good recording, it is gear. The thing is, it is now so easy to have giant sounding tracks, that the trend (apart from the dance techno crowd) is to go counter courant, and make stuff the actually doesn't sound produced. It is the fruit of a generation which were kids in the 80's when everything was super produced, and in reaction to this they thrive for offbeat, more lifesize, often lo-fi stuff. I respect that in a way. It is the way of the arts to always move away from the conventional. I must admit, that some of the new stuff out there is courageous. There is A LOT of not so good stuff also mind you. But one thing is sure, we couldn't go on anymore listening to the same music all the time and find that music isn't as good as it was before. There are still gems to be found. You just gotta look and stay open. I try, but it is difficult as I get older, to reconfigure the parameters on which I'm used to sense that I "dig" something. It is really hard. When you have learned to love music as a teenager 30 years there is you find out that there isn't much left of these musical genres in today's fashion. It is a good thing, imagine if groups were still writing stuff like the group Boston, or "Madame Blue" .. we'd all be brain dead.

If they were still producing recordings like that, we would have a lot more people purchasing records. Simply because, all that stuff had a melody. I can't find a melody in most everything today. I don't care if that's the children that want to be independent. It's crappy music. It's crap production. And there's still plenty of Baby Boomers, that would still like to hear some quality rock 'n roll with some substance. Granted, they're not all rushing out to the venues like they used to. And that's another reason why we have the Internet today. Just not the same kind of windfall greed profits like there used to be. So, fewer people are pursuing that business plan. That doesn't mean there isn't money to be made. But there certainly is less money to be made. No different than the original musician and value concept of years gone by. Very few parents wanted their kids to become musicians because you can't make a living. And, as an engineer with a studio, you're likely going to make even less? So some guys want to get rich and other guys are just happy to pay the bills.

Paying bills makes you feel like you're making money. (We really don't believe that.)
Mx. Remy Ann David

RemyRAD, post: 396535 wrote: If they were still producing recordings like that, we would have a lot more people purchasing records. Simply because, all that stuff had a melody. I can't find a melody in most everything today. I don't care if that's the children that want to be independent. It's crappy music. It's crap production. And there's still plenty of Baby Boomers, that would still like to hear some quality rock 'n roll with some substance. Granted, they're not all rushing out to the venues like they used to. And that's another reason why we have the Internet today. Just not the same kind of windfall greed profits like there used to be. So, fewer people are pursuing that business plan. That doesn't mean there isn't money to be made. But there certainly is less money to be made. No different than the original musician and value concept of years gone by. Very few parents wanted their kids to become musicians because you can't make a living. And, as an engineer with a studio, you're likely going to make even less? So some guys want to get rich and other guys are just happy to pay the bills.

Paying bills makes you feel like you're making money. (We really don't believe that.)
Mx. Remy Ann David

It is true, there is a lot of not so good stuff out there because anybody can make a record these days. I was interviewed in some local documentary on "Creativity" and I was asked: Where are today's Mozarts, and Beethovens, etc? The only answer I could come up with was: They still exist, they're just not doing music cause there are new, much more interesting venues for expressing creativity. They are probably, Film Makers, Writers, Physicists, Video Game creators, Wallstreet Gurus, whatever. In the days that Mozart Lived, You had few choices: Be super poor, be a Soldier, or entertain the King. To entertain the king, there was Music and Theater... Why Am I talking about that? eh... yes, context. MP3 came and Computer recording came, and video games came, and.. rock,n roll didn't die, but it faded away.

zblip2, post: 396540 wrote: rock,n roll didn't die, but it faded away.

Rock'n'Roll is still here. It has just changed over the years like everything else. Every generation has added something to it or took something from it.
Music is evolving and that has nothing to do with good or bad. It has to do with different tastes.
And there is great music in every era. I love the old Genesis from the 60s and 70s, and I love Whitesnake from the 80s. I also love Pearl Jam from the 90s. And now I love bands like Linkin Park or 30 Seconds To Mars. All are rock'n'roll bands that could not be more different from one another. Every band just reflects the style of its era. And with style and era changes the sound of the music.

The Mozarts and Beethovens are still there, but you have to be looking for them. Although you probably won't find them in the charts.
But then again, maybe I am also prejudiced and the music they play in the charts is also good and I just don't understand it. We tend to believe that the only good music is the one we grew up with. But if you keep our eyes and ears open you can still find some gems out there.

To me it is not all about talent... It is about determination and motivation. Making great music is not about making money and it never just should be... Well it never should have been about money ever. Once someone is writing to make money they have lost that old feeling that made them start writing in the first place. To capture these moments of perfection are not by chance, but I believe these gifts from that place in the sky. I am not religious but I feel there is a spirit in music. If that spirit is not there in the music then it's just not the same. I wish I had it and made that kind of music. I guess we all can make music just for ourselves when it is not meant for the masses, right? I love my songs but don't expect or think anyone will. Even if my songs were the best recorded they could ever be... They still will be only for me. Sometimes I wish other people could just hear with open mind what I hear, but that is still subjective reasoning. I guess talent has a lot to do with it all, but that is not what is all about to me.

Anyway my point is simple... Making something great can pay more than the bills!! Making something sound great is different and just as subjective. Either way I want to make something great and would love to pay someone to make it sound great!! I mean paying people money to make Justin Beiber sound great will never make his music Great!! He even might have talent right? What is talent anyway? These days... It's that crap on the TV with all these Crappy shows trying to make talented people into a money making marketing machine. Talent does not equal rawness of spirit, and to me rawness of spirit equals originality. Originality is the ability to take that basic chord progression used many times over and make it yours.

I cannot defend any modern "Crap Music" that I have heard lately and I think mostly modern music today is not that "great". However there are a few times I am pleasantly surprised by some good song writing. Here are a couple right out the gate.

I listened to this whole album and thought it was good. When I came to the last song I was really surprised at how great it really was. The Black Keys are getting more and more commercialized as far as the business is concerned. I feel that this track is not commercial and overproduced. Really this track makes me feel an emotion. That's what music is all about, and if this does not a make you feel anything... well then I am sorry.

Also, Death Cab for Cutie might not be your cup of tea. However, there are these tracks that artists lay down in one day that just come to them quickly. No mixing really or any effects, but just straight song. That's what this one is to me and it's modern music that "I" think does not suck. Not many out there today on the mainstream that even come so close. Don't worry it has no hihats... LOL

On the topic of this thread... If you want a good sounding hihat player then call up Stewart Copeland... It worked for Peter Gabriel! I think when you start getting into the drum sampling of things out there, then you start to be overly critical of natural drumming sounds. Perfection is another word to me for unsatisfied. Hi hat sounds and bleeding between mics is the least of my worries in the current state of modern music. But Stewart Copeland never sounded bad playing his Hihat!

i think dan aurbech and chris walla are pretty talented in the current breed. and peter gabriel, undoubtedly talented. they are also surrounded by a team of discriminate, talented people, who know how to make songs that will be popular in the mass market.

Dude, "brothers" is the the black keys weakest album. it's still good, but listen to thick freakness or rubber factory. that's raw energy, that's them sounding how they wanted too. that's also why nobody knew about them until they had the major labels telling them, using way better equipment, and hiring a professional engineer.

it's what you want, i'd let someone tell me what's gonna be a hit and hire the best of this and that, if i was gonna sell millions of tickets and hear my song every 15 secs on tv. good choice. now they are rich enough to make any kinda recording they want on they're own time.

those dudes are very very good players, i saw them in central park n.y when on the brothers tour, they rocked the sh=t man, and only played a few of the new songs.

i worked on a session last weekend, where the band was smart enough (and had the budget) to hire a professional drummer. this dude banged out 16 keeper drum tracks in a day and a half, including setup time. he didn't have any parts prior to coming in, he was told what to play, and learned on the spot. they actually saved money, and got a better end product, than having a non pro come do a million takes all week, and then have us comp it.

i'm nuetral. i see both points of veiw. if your goal is to just capture your band, or make a demo, or an album to sell at gigs (<---what's that!??), cool come on down you get the best recording, of you best performance possible, and probably learn some things about your song-writing structure, and playing technique, as well. happy all around.

if you want the best possible end product of your song, or idea, well you gonna be put in touch w/ the best people possible to do that. pro musicians, an arranger, a producer, ect, ect.

look i'm not claiming do be anything great, but i'm learning from a dude who 'made it', as well as a very talented guy who just hasn't had the lucky 'hit'. there are clear differences in the working methods, one is set in his ways of the heyday of the record company (unlimited time,talent, and huge budgets) the other understands when it is appropriate, to use that method, and when it isn't. guess who get's more work, and has more, happy customers, over the past 15 yrs.

there's no right or wrong. when your being flown around the world working w/ the whos who, making millions, it's a big reality check, when your not 'the flavors of the era' anymore. financial irresponsibility was his folly. he sick sick of the state of the 'biz' in the late 90's, and the 18 hour days, so he retired, sold his studio, and the millions of dollars in gear he doesn't stop talking about. then blew all his money, and had to go back to work in the everyday world of professional engineering. i can see where it would be hard to let go of that working method because it works, if your lucky/and skilled enough to achieve that.

there will always be a place for that, mbox, or not, there's will always be a demand for the current 'best'. there has and always will be crappy bands, it's just easier to here them. i mean how many f'd-up nosensical phys-hellic crap was around in the 'golden age' of rock? as many as there are people in their basement autotuning and triggering drummagogg of pillows. it's all what your goal is.

i think the difference in the era's is that pop-music back in the day was, meant to have artistic substance, as well as make money. the majority of today's pop only employs one of them. gotta just dig thru alot more crap these days.

dr. g, if you like the keys, you should check out, the growlers

Two very interesting posts. Is it tougher today to land a hit record then it was back in the days? My answer would be: about the same. Funny, as everybody is saying that today's music is crappy, it would then be easier than ever to rise on top of the crap and get noticed yes? No. A hit record is a rare gem and new trends aren't defined until some one brilliant or lucky enough creates one out of the blue. What defines the trend of the music we are hearing everywhere? Record Company Politics? Social trends and sociological movements? Artists that open new doors? All of the above? Why is it that Adele became a super star without playing the sex doll routine? (yes she's fat, and yes she still is sexy-useless comment btw).. Why did Arcade Fire became a mega band though they don't sound particularly well? Everything is still up for grabs yet the odds of finding the right songs and sound and create a blend that will ignite the industry is near impossible. This thread has gone a very long way don't you think? It doesn't have anything to do with the beginning...

zblip2, post: 396558 wrote: ... Is it tougher today to land a hit record then it was back in the days? My answer would be: about the same. Funny, as everybody is saying that today's music is crappy, it would then be easier than ever to rise on top of the crap and get noticed yes? ...

You have to define "hit" here. If that means wide national awareness and water cooler conversations in every office in the US, then it's much harder. Back in the day there were only a few companies that could offer national (US) distribution. A small shop like Sun or Stax could not compete on a national basis. But they could sell acts to the "majors" after they had been tested regionally. At that point there was a distribution system that could go national (without a lot of competition.)

Back in the day things were not market tested to within an inch of their life and companies didn't have formulas for making money.Some young guys in suits told the old guys in suits to give this group a chance and they gambled a few thousand bucks. (A few hundreds of thousands in today's money.)

Nothing is like that these days. Clear channel can carry a song. But they have a formula. It works for them, provides steady profits, and they are not deviating from it one bit. They can't "make " a hit. But they don't want to. They just want to make the cash flow.

Now the good news is with the new Sun records, Mr. Sam doesn't have to hump boxes of 45s around the country in the trunk of his car. With the new Sun record a [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]couple of kid who have never shaved [/]="http://www.youtube…"]couple of kid who have never shaved [/]can get more hits on YouTube than guys who have been busting their humps for years. Do those kids have a "hit?" You tell me.

BobRogers, post: 396559 wrote:
Now the good news is with the new Sun records, Mr. Sam doesn't have to hump boxes of 45s around the country in the trunk of his car. With the new Sun record a [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]couple of kid who have never shaved [/]="http://www.youtube…"]couple of kid who have never shaved [/]can get more hits on YouTube than guys who have been busting their humps for years. Do those kids have a "hit?" You tell me.

Interesting. Things have changed even more than I though it seems... And BTW, I'm not even in the music business, I'm just a sound designer/violinist/mixer for TV/adds/film whatever and I write a jingle from time to time.. I'm here having esoteric conversations about the music industry... I don't know zilch about the music industry lol! Mind you it is still interesting :)

I was going to answer to this at the first but I got busy making a record.......Theres bleed on the snare from the hi-hats and visaversa. I chose my mics so that the bleed from each sounded like it was supposed to be part of the sound of the drums. If I want to get rid of this I will have to edit the tracks and gate the remaining signals. And it will work very well. I will only do this if it needs to be done. It will only need to be done if I havent done my diligence in micing the kit. This includes the mic selections and placements. The choice of amplification for these mics, EQ and compression going in if wanted or deemed necessary, small secret techniques to cut down on the bleed (hehheh)....even to the choices of the hihat metalurgy and the type of snare heads and the tuning......in short, have I done my engineering homework adequately.

Probably.

But I'll take a hihathater when you get em done just to have one!

Davedog, post: 396572 wrote: But I'll take a hihathater when you get em done just to have one!

Hourray!! My very first client! :)))))) The first ones I make are going off to promotion (Magazines, David Letterman's band (not done yet) etc) As soon as this is covered, you can have one half price if you are still interested cause you were the very first to show interest in buying one :))))))

I'm starting to like "hi-hat hater" more and more... its funny.

So what exactly did HHH stand for originally? Was it an acronym or are those your actual initials? As in, Herbert Has a Holiday? Hacking Horrible Hangups? Happy Holiday Happenings? Having Heard Happiness? Half Happening Hacks? Hi Ho Harrumph? Come on now... give it up. I won't be able to sleep until I know. LOL

It's OK... I'm enjoying the holiday weekend. Going to hear some friends rock out tonight and then I was asked to come down to sing for a karaoke DJ. I do a great Michael Jackson, in spite of having a much larger nose LMAO.

He's actually still alive after having a face transplant from a female cadaver Caucasian.
Mx. Remy Ann David

having heard happiness? lol

Well, have fun doing the moon walk :), I can't tell you the name yet, and as a matter of fact, I'm having second thoughts about the name but that's another issue.
I'm crossing my fingers I'll be able to do some testing at the studio this week-end. My aim is to create two mp3 multi-track kits that will be composed of Snare top, Snare bottom, Snare shell, mono Over Head, mono Room Mic, Bass Drum mic, Hi-hat mic. I'll have the drummer (me) play the same drum beats "with and without" the gizmo. I'll put the multi-track kits online and ask anybody interested (I'd be happy if you did me the honor RemyRad) to try mixing these and get back to me with comments. Don't go crazy, just play around a couple of minute with them, and try to achieve a good drum sound. Would any of you be interested? I'd really appreciate your feedback, you are much more experienced than me at mixing drums. If you find that there is a problem with the sound, I'd like to know before putting my hard earned economies (dont have any, I'll be borrowing from the mafia) on the line...

Thanks All!