RADAR studio the "integrated audio appliance"

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
Some info on Windows 10/ and those paying attention to those who see it coming.

It appears Windows 10 is going to be why Radar and anyone for that matter is heading back to Windows. It appears this OS will be able to strip down for just what we need it for and no more. I see why Samplitude bailed on Apple because Windows can be streamlined JUST FOR SAMPLITUDE. Lets hope its true.


With 10 we finally get to the point where developers can truly build an app, and maximize where their customers can use it.

To be sure, we know desktop DAWs and plugins are still the bread and butter of the industry. We have that firmly in mind as we're doing development. We can do OS-level stuff like MIDI, and audio driver optimization, but things like ASIO and VST standards/implementations are largely out of our control (although we do talk to companies like Steinberg to make them aware of our plans and to get their feedback).

 

kmetal

Kyle P. Gushue
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
i suppose i don't have a grip on how much of a computer i need but history tells me to max out.
i would like to be able to record 8 tracks live and mix 32. i have never used more than 32 tracks.
i'm looking new and used at i7 quads with either 7200 or 10,000 rmp or solid state drives, 8 gig ram, nvida graphics, f/w or thuder bolt as well as usb intefacing ... and i'm looking at laptops. i will never buy another desktop.

a used $500 quad core Mac or PC will do that easily. I use about 15-30 luggin instances in most of my mixes, which are usually 32 or less tracks. I run waves packages no sweat, edit on the fly. Any modern machine is pretty much over spec'd for that. It's the OS and the connection types that render new needs, as well as plugins.

I'm not a computer expert, but I used to run Adobe audition on a 566mhz HP, @ 192 thru a soundblaster lol. It couldn't do the convolution reverbs parameter adjustments in realtime, but it had eq on every channel, and it still sounds better than a lot of programs from the past few years. Version 2.5 is like over 10 yrs old.

@Kurt Foster how are you planning on no latency? I'm just wondering what your computer has to do with it? Im thinking of the typical hardware monitoring, or realtime dsp scenerios .

Realistically my tablet can just about do it. I don't know if there's a track limit in garage band iOS. Editing with a touchscreen if very nice, and it's gonna be magic when it gets refined. If there was a high quality conversion option and a serious DAW app I'd be done with computers. I Want my recorder to record and edit. And while UAD may be another poor tools nightmare, I'm very excited about new high quality qigital OB, and OB dsp. The eqs on the Dsp based digital boards like the SL or D8b have sound nicer than 90% of plugins, and those are realtime. So it definatly can be done, I've heard arguments that high quality analog circuitry is even more important in a digital situation than fully analog.

I'm still comletely ITB, with the typical one DAW setup, and just make due what what I have. It's not that all plug-inssounds bad, they just don't stack well.
 

kmetal

Kyle P. Gushue
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Some info on Windows 10/ and those paying attention to those who see it coming.

It appears Windows 10 is going to be why Radar and anyone for that matter is heading back to Windows. It appears this OS will be able to strip down for just what we need it for and no more. I see why Samplitude bailed on Apple because Windows can be streamlined JUST FOR SAMPLITUDE. Lets hope its true.





I've never had problems with backround programs, are really felt the need to tweak a Mac other than knowing what it does to the old xp machines. Have you have some problems in particular Chris?

I only ask because I avoid macs forever then when started at the studio and had no choice. I had nightmares with a core duo laptop for audio, it was a waste of $800.

I just sense a 'cheapening' of Apple in general, and I think the golden age is over for them as they were, so I'm on the fence yet again.
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
i lived and worked in Apples back yard for years and i knew a few people who worked there. i visited Apple and Avid/Digidesign's campus's a few times and i will never do business with either of them ever. imo, the two of them worked hand in hand for years to drain the pockets of their customers.

the ability to strip the os to basics is a good thing for power users. it will really help users of laptops. i see the end of the desk top box and a move to laptops and Pads. personally i wish Linux was better than it is for audio .... i like the open programs. i would go there any day.

@Chris, didn't you just say your computer / system will last for years? now you're looking at a new OS ... we all know what that means ... lol. i hate this disposable approach. i guess it's because i take care of my things. i have piles of crap that works perfect but no one (including me) wants anymore.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
@kmetal
I make sure I have background services disabled. But that doesn't mean they all are. This new Windows OS appears to be designed for the client and app. I get the app thing now. And I like it.
When I disable things on my PC, there is still a list of about 40 things that I can disable or remove. The question is, should I.

I'm always looking ahead so I need less and less distractions. I do not want third part code in my DAW at all. As you said so well, plug-ins / code doesn't always stack well. I say, it never stacks well. Which is why I use Samplitude/ Sequoia. I do not need to stack waves, UAD, etc, like so many seem to need. No disrespect but I can't even believe people still use Waves. Do you really like Waves? why?
When you use Sequoia, its pretty much the all in one DAW but it also requires a better DAW than what most people are using. At least that's how it appears to me right now.
generally speaking, I look forward to the day I mix something with one essental group of plug-ins and we compare it all to the hundreds.

slightly off topic, after I created a second boot drive, i cannot believe how well Sequoia runs. If Windows 10 is what I think it will be, my guess, the DAW companies will be able to turn off everything we don't need to make it run better, and it will actually solve a lot of conflicts. Its about time.

^#$% Apple. Its nothing but a an over priced pig that is the tail end of the multimedia market of the 90's. Pro Tools and Apple are the dregs of the last pro audio generation. Like it or not, its over for PT and apple is all about tons of apps we don't need.
If I was in this business using that program, I would sell as fast as I could and watch the sheep go to slaughter.

Hybrid like most are doing is the next wave for nothing. If you learn how to mix, you can do it on anything these digital days.

I like Samplitude solely because I don't have to mess with the conflicts.
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
@#$% Apple. its nothing but a an over priced pig that is the tail end of the multimedia market of the 90's. Pro Tools and Apple are the dregs of the last generation. Like it or not. Its over for them. PT is done and if i was in this business using that program, I would sell as fast i i could and watch the sheep go to slaughter.

they went after the money and lost sight of the users with a "Let them eat cake" attitude. now i can't think of anyone who wouldn't like to see them carted off to the guillotine. fair pricing and practices go a long way to customer loyalty.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
Indeed. What a total BS product. Pro tools = walmart/ Most plug-ins = sugar coated cardboard. U A D, = sorry guys.... back door store to more crap for the kids. Ya I know... you think its great. I get why. I sold my pile as fast as I could. What an absolute joke. Like it or not, it ain't fooling me but what difference does it make. If it makes us happy, that's all that matters. .

I'm thinking I better change my name again because this next year isn't going to be candy coated around here. :whistle:
 

kmetal

Kyle P. Gushue
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
[="http://recording.org/members/37533/"]@kmetal[/]
Do you really like Waves? why?
.

Not a huge fan personally. The R series isn't terrible, and the ssl channel is cool. But the sound of the waves stuff hasn't changed really cinch it came out, It's old hat Imo.

I use them because I have no choice that's better at the studio. Stock DP plug-insare actuall the worst out there. Worse than PTLE. And those are just about as bad. We all use the same platform and is up to my boss. He hates the constant upgrade fees from waves, and upgrades only periodically.

Really there are very few options for processing audio. Sequoia is a specialized program not targeted at the masses yet, and it's oriced that way. I'm personally excited about samplitube in my new setup. But it's still plugins. It's not like people are raving about how amazing they are, it's more about how 'not terrible' like the other ones they are.

You've owned the m-7, you know what high quality digital processing can do. Not sure what the analog section was if there is one, but I'm sure it was pristine.

Even in front of huge speakers in an amazing room with real cred, the DAW seems to me to be toyish. Little cartoon knobs, .10 dB adjustments I want to belive I'm hearing. I'm obviously not smart enough to figure out the better way, but i can say reasonably confidently, we're not really even close yet. The way we're listening has to change and immersive sound is helping. That's the direction of the next level. I belive the best sounding records are from the mid 70s and mid 90s in general. I think steroe sound as has peaked, and there won't be a true massive jump in quality until the next format adoption. look at what mini line array technology has done for live.? Say what you will about Bose, but that little micro line array sounds quite good, and I've heard keep up with a drum set and band no sweat.
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
what i want is an uncluttered work surface / desk. 2 monitors, and a laptop or two or perhaps a stand alone recorder. one rack on the side with patch bays and what outboard i need. i'm done with all the hardware. if i could i would get rid of it all. just run plugs. eqs, dynamics, verbs, delays, spatial effects ... 2-bus limiters. that's all .... i really am anxious to see if Mixbus does it but i think i'm going to want some second party plugs, especially verbs and the phsyecdellic sh*t. i also am looking to a second DAW program for midi if i need it.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
When you can. I suggest getting a used SPL 2381 Monitor controller or something clean and similar layout. Monitor controllers are one of the top essentials that make DAW tracking and mixing better.
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
When you can. I suggest getting a used SPL 2381 Monitor controller or something clean and similar layout. Monitor controllers are one of the top essentials that make DAW tracking and mixing better.

the Crimson would be a nice fit for the mix computer DAW ..... hard on the budget though. i will be working by myself archiving stuff at the start so i really don't need it. later maybe. the most i would ever do is a rhythm track session. i want a super maxed system with lots of resource headroom so i can track 8 tracks @96, with plugs to DAW and in the monitors / phones at lowest buffer settings possible if i want. this will be it. after this i will never buy a new computer for music.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
Agree. I've never used it but i like most SPL stuff.

Shop GS Classifieds, there are so many people selling gear there for cheap. Its the demise of manufacturers and retail and getting worse, meaning prices are dropping more and more and no one is buying much. Half the crowd is buying and selling something because they don't know what they have or how to use it. I've seen the 2381 go for a few hundred because someone started talking about their scratchy pots which I never experienced once and something SPL will warranty.
I like it because it fits most DAW setups and is super clean, which is exactly what you want in a monitoring device. It makes comparing really simple and does almost what the Dangerous ST does for a fraction of the cost. Its not a ST but damn close in many aspects.

I like the Monitor controller separate from the converters but its been a while since I took a new glance at whats out there now.
Anyway, more to chat about and to keep your eye on, just in case...
 

pan60

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
@Kurt Foster i'm not sure I see an end to desk tops, but?

A friend is setting me up a pc to try and if I feel comparable I will have one set up just for audio.
Hoping I can make the change.
I am very very disappoint in the apple service department and I drop PT many years ago.
 

DonnyThompson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
Akron/Cleveland, OH
@Chris @TimDolbear

I see why Samplitude bailed on Apple because Windows can be streamlined JUST FOR SAMPLITUDE. Lets hope its true.

From what I understand, Chris, it was the other way around. The skinny that I read was that Samp tried like hell to work with Mac, but they weren't willing to give the support needed to Samp's developers.
I could be wrong on that... Maybe Tim could tell us.
 

DonnyThompson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
Akron/Cleveland, OH
@Chris @pan60 @Kurt Foster @kmetal

I'm always looking ahead so I need less and less distractions. I do not want third part code in my DAW at all. As you said so well, plug-ins / code doesn't always stack well. I say, it never stacks well. Which is why I use Samplitude/ [="http://pro.magix.com/en/sequoia/"]Sequoia[/]. I do not need to stack [="http://www.waves.com"]Waves[/], [="http://www.uaudio.com/"]UAD[/], etc, like so many seem to need. No disrespect but I can't even believe people still use Waves. Do you really like Waves? why?

Normally, Chris and I pretty much see eye to eye ( or, LOL, hear ear to ear) on about everything... this is where we (respectfully) diverge.

Chris is into a much more contemporary mixing style than I am - I tend to lean towards a more "classic" vibe in what I do and what I produce, so for me, these third party tools often get me the sound and vibe that I am after. Whereas with Chris, he has a much more contemporary and current approach to his mixing and production style - for an example, take a listen to what he did for his daughter on the sports song she wrote and performed - and you can hear what I'm talking about. That mix absolutely stands as a fantastic representation of a modern and popular sounding production, and he's the guy to pull that off. I'm not. ;)

My styles - and my clients - are more "retro" in their sound and what they want to sound like, so I tend to use those processors that will help me to achieve that sound.

The reason I like using some of those third party processors, is because I like what they do, for the way that I produce and mix.

I absolutely do agree with him that there are some third party plugs out there that are cheap, badly coded, and can harm the sonics of a mix.

I haven't found this to be the case with either Waves or T-Racks (I haven't had the opportunity to use any UAD stuff, because UAD requires a separate DSP to run their processors), both sound good to me, are well coded to work with any popular DAW platform, and, they give me the tools I need, within the context of what I do.

I have no problems with Samp's stock plugs... no problem at all. Samp's EQ116 is still the finest I've ever used for forensic filtering.
But for what I do, in terms of the way that I lean production-wise, Sam's stock processors and effects don't always offer me what some of these third-party classic processors do. For example, I'm not a fan of Samp's reverbs or delays. Again, it's all relative to what we want our mixes to reflect. If I was working in a more modern realm of production, as Chris does, I'm positive that Sam would give me everything I need.

I don't believe that there is any "right" or "wrong" way, it's just how we all mix and produce as individuals, and as long as you get good mixes, and your clients are happy and want to come back, I think that's all that really matters in the end. ;)

IMHO of course.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
Thanks Donny, that was very kind words from you. I would add to that profile, I prefer to use classic analog hardware going in for the classic character while keeping my DAW thin of most plugs other than the essentials. Special effects would be a different story, but on those (particularity because of processing consumption) I still prefer hardware processors like Eventides or Bricasti through a Neos or similar otb console. Bit distortion plugs are really cool but my personal experience is you have to be careful with itb character tools because they tend to make things one demential fast. As far as keeping our DAW smooth, less is more seems to be better so its why I am so careful about what I use ITB. Its not that I don't want to have more, I just don't see 40 flavors of eq's being all the different to make a curve.

I'm sure the next few years is going to produce new plugins that are going to be out of this world. Can't wait for that day.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
@Chris @TimDolbear



From what I understand, Chris, it was the other way around. The skinny that I read was that Samp tried like hell to work with Mac, but they weren't willing to give the support needed to Samp's developers.
I could be wrong on that... Maybe Tim could tell us.

Same thing.
Magix was smart and walked away as I'm assuming is the same with Radar. Apple wants to keep us calling back to the cloud ;) This new OS appears to be the way all software should be.
 

kmetal

Kyle P. Gushue
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I don't really have good luck with computers in general. I've never had a problem that required a call to Apple. The cloud is gonna be a catastrophe one day Imo, but I'm excited in general about realtime remote mixing and recording. I belive this to be the future. From my research the best you can do is a custom PC that is 'borrowed' in componets, ect, and put it together yourself. Wheni was pricing things out it was around 3k for the what I was looking into, which was basically all top shelf components similar to the rain and creation station computers. It still takes some tweaking. I've seen well built pcs run as good or better than any Mac or the creation stations from similar eras 03-09. I think I wouldnve saved like 15-20% putting it together myself.

So still three pages later, and everybody has bashed plug-insand computers, but none of us are on turnkey, or dedicated systems are we? That's an actual question lol, I'm on a Mac pro at the studios, and a tablet. Still eyeing options for my mobile/home rig.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
but none of us are on turnkey, or dedicated systems are we?
After I got off the road in the late 90's I heard about Pro tools and how it was the best because it was turn key and seemed similar to the first workstations like E-mu, Akai. People think Pro Tools was the first but it came years after the first workstations. Even the Korg M1 was a workstation.
I owned the Emulator II which was Pro Tools on a keyboard lol. Primitive yes, but a sampler just like the DAW is today.
I needed turn key and even when I started RO in 98 and owned Pro Tools I never really understood what the converters , interfaces and clocking was all about. Not until I dumped Pro Tools and went modular, did I really understand this new way to record and why I needed certain things.

I would never go back to a dedicated system like Pro Tools or Radar. They always seem great at first but once you start seeing advancement, turn key quickly become dated and very hard to sell.
 
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