Thinking about dropping ProTools and getting into a Radar 24?

B

bradz

Guest
Hey Folks,
I posted this on the Iz forum, but my computer seems to display that forum wierd, so I'm cross posting. Sorry if that bugs anyone.

I'm new here, and thinking about jumping off the ProTools (losing my religion?)and getting into a Radar 24. From everything I've read on various boards, the sound quality of the box is pretty much a slam dunk. When pricing out 24 channels of quality outboard I/O, this sounds like a pretty good deal already. Naturally, I have some questions.
1. I hear people talking a lot about using a DAW for editing. How easy is it to do some of the following in the Radar?:
-cut/copy/paste across mulitple tracks to modify arrangements.

-select a region in a track and nudge it around in time (I'm not really interested in a grid, so that's not a factor. just a little tweaking of the feel of a track)

-adjust the start and end points of a region, keeping the location in time constatnt (Trim tool in Pro Tools)

2. In the event that a DAW is needed to do some of this (I have Logic Audio here for those duties if needed) what's the process for getting the tracks back and forth. TDIF? Ethernet? Drive Swap?

3. Are the Kingston drive casings removeable drive bays, or housings for internal drives?

4. How happy are folks with DVD-Ram as a backup solution? I'm currently using Travan tape, and while slow, it's pretty reliable.

5. I've heard that virtual tracks (playlists in Pro Tools) are in developement. How soon can they be expected. I use them tons in creating comps and while writing lines for tunes, and feel they are a valuable creative tool. and a key feature for me. I know how people are creating submixes and laying o'dubs over the submix in a new session. That's a way out, but not my first choice by a longshot.

6. How are upgrades handled? As a disgruntled Digi customer, you can probably guess my thoughts about how they've handled thier upgrade scenario. Having spent a large portion of my available cash on a Mix Plus rig eight months ago, I feel like I'm being strong armed to cough up another 6k to upgrade by the deadline, or face 15 to 20k if I can't make it by June 30. Niether of those are gonna happen. I'm thinking off selling off my whole rig, taking a 3-4k hit after the sale, and getting the Nyquist 96 Bundle.

There's a great reputation around this product and the folks that make it, and investing in an honest quality centered company is now becoming more important than having an "Industry Standard" Aes-31 sounds like the solution, as we can use whatever platform we want, and have ease of interchange. 24 track tape is the standard file format for analog, and not everyone has to have the same tape machine to play one, so why should we all have to use the same digital recorder, right?

I'm sure I'll think of some more questions, but these are the big ones.

Thanks in advance!

Brad Zeffren
Silver Thread Productions
 

paulears

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Location
Lowestoft - UK
The snag with this of course is the same with going into any niche product. The selling features seem to be aimed fairly and squarely at those chasing ultra HD quality audio. There will be people who really do see their cash balanced across this ability to generate superb quality audio. In a way, ever since audio began being done with computers, these products have had a market. I bought into one in the 90s - the Soundscape System - dedicated hardware that produced the magic, and something far, far away from the stuff everyone else had at the time. I moved to it after being a Cubase user - which was then, MIDI only. I kept the MIDI but started recording in the box. A year of frustration that it really just didn't work for me, meant I went to ADAT, because my friends and colleagues had ADAT and we could share, and work on each others products. With Soundscape, I could work in the studio and nowhere else. I put 8 tracks of ADAT in my home studio and I could work at home.

I won't be doing it again. A few studios had RADAR, but it was never universal, and the new version from the current manufacturer is, I am sure, a fine product - but it is NOT an industry standard, far from it. They have a decent user base of working studios, but the sheer number of alternative systems out there would make the 'standard' difficult to quantify. As a stand alone, none computer system it could be market leader because the market for these is not huge. Protools would seem to be difficult to go up against.

I suppose it's down to how the 'quality' matters. For me - I'm having real issues hearing quality differences now. 44.1, 16 bit up to 96, 32 bit, and the differences seem to be so tiny - I really cannot be sure I am hearing them, and not just what I've recorded.

This product has documented audio quality that is first class. It has quite a few useful features, but it's a clever tape recorder and every owner of a computer based DAW can add HUGE, simply HUGE quantities of personalisation. No two users ever have identical systems with identical sounds and facilities and when I receive Cubase projects from clients and colleagues, I'm amazed at the staggering numbers of plugins they have that I don't. Almost infinite flexibility, and you can never have this with Radar because it's solid, tested, and unique. The big user base of any of the popular DAWs makes flexibility much better. I know Radar's fundamental feature is audio quality, but with this removed from the equation, I'm not sure what it does that is streets ahead of everything else.

I'm positive the users are all really happy with the system and are very enthusiastic about it - but I know I shall never invest again in a non computer system. Just not for me.
 

Nobtwiddler

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Location
Millbrook, NY / Sharon Ct.
With Radar it comes down to a few REAL factors.

#1 It's ease of use, takes literally minutes to power up and record. If you are familiar with a tape machine, then this is a no brainer.
#2 It's Sonics, second to none, even with their entry level Radar Classic Convertors.
#3 It's reliability, I owned 5 of these units at one time, only one ever had a problem, and was addressed and fixed in a matter of hours.

Nothing else like it available, period.
www.millbrooksoundstudio.com
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
I thought about buying Radar years back (2002/4 but figured it would become hostage to its own converters and a dated OS. Looking back, I feel that was a good decision, thus I had fun building a modular hybrid system that was pretty cool.
In the last decade converters/interfaces have become so smooth and reliable. My last rig was Madi and that was flawless. To my tests, having a good PCIe interface matched to the converter works great even on a basic windows system for thousands less than Radar. Being said, Radar is very cool.

Are they still around?
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
yes they are. as i see it, the upside to Radar is you are't held hostage to upgrade cycles and comptibilty issues. that's a big plus to me. Radar also fuctions as a conventional 24 channel converter if you want. that way you don't need a console.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
Radar also fuctions as a conventional 24 channel converter if you want. that way you don't need a console.
But you can buy an 8, 16, 24, 32, 64 channel(s) with a matched interface and a pro Windows 10 box for thousands less. Exact quality if not superior sound as well. That’s a fact.

it really comes down to paying Radar to build the setup for you instead of yourself.
 

paulears

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Location
Lowestoft - UK
I don’t doubt it’s pedigree, as it’s something new owners considered worth buying, but the concern nowadays is sinking money into a one box product. What is it like for virtual instruments, encoding, integration with things like spectral layers, or it’s ability to pitch shift, time align and handle video?
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
some people don't want all that stuff. everyone doesn't play keyboards. hard to believe but there are still some bands who can play whole songs without mistakes. all they need is a recorder that can do punch ins. it's all i want. but i don't need 24 tracks so i'm out. 8 is enough! if they made an 8 track i'd be all over it.!
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
some people don't want all that stuff. everyone doesn't play a key board. hard to believe but there are still some bands who still can play a whole song without mistakes. all they need is a recorder that can do punch ins. it's all i want. but i don't need 24 tracks so i'm out. 8 is enough!
No offence Kurt but I really don't think you realize how uncomplicated a DAW is and how Radar vs a DAW is the same thing. No offence to Radar users or the company but Radar is just a DAW built by Radar for people who don't either want to learn how to build the same thing or because they subscribe to the hype of which Radar came about which began about the time you joined RO.
People like mixerman got into it because they didn't like Pro Tools 16 (aka Alsihad). They started running down Pro Tools for a reason, which was all to make people believe they were doing something better then the rest of us :sneaky:. Long and boring history but its no better or simpler than a basic DAW.
Digital audio is digital audio. You need a keypad to press on and off just like any platform. Good better or best interface and converters are available to us all.

Radar equals an interface, converters, windows 10, hard drives and your fav DAW and you can call it want you want. It's an overpriced DAW on Windows 10.
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
yeah but it doesn't do internet and video and video chat and games or have a surreptitious camera running all the time and all the other stuff that home computers are built to do. there's no bloatware or hidden stuff running in the background. it doesn't pick up unwanted cookies and junk from the internet. once you have a system running there aren't any unwanted updates.

since it doesn't use plug ins the user isn't forced into a cycle of upgrades to keep compatible. i know it's a computer but it's a proprietary system that is not open. so it remains stable and is not subject to slowing down as time passes like many computers seem to be designed to do. last it is a product built for professional use. most computers are home appliances.

i love computers. just not for recording. i tried it and i don't like it. there's too much like menus and file directories and freezing channels and delay compensation etc. that doesn't have anything to do with music or the recording process for me to deal with. i distracts me. i don't like how hard it is to record into a mix. for the way i like to work, it doesn't work.

but if i did get a computer for recording i would want something like a Radar. but if others like recording on computers, that's good too. i'm not trying to convince anyone. just answering questions.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
yeah but it doesn't do internet and video and video chat and games or have a surreptitious camera running all the time and all the other stuff that home computers are built to do. there's no bloatware or hidden stuff running in the background. it doesn't pick up unwanted cookies and junk from the internet. once you have a system running there aren't any unwanted updates.
Yes, it would or could but its turned off or disabled. Sincerely, Kurt... If you understood computing today, you'd actually see that Radar is foolish to even consider. Also, companies like Magix (makers of Samplitude or Sequoia) have a simple program you can install that optimizes your PC. Or, you can simply disable what you don't want running in the background, yourself. Which is what most of us do today.

To add... you actually want audio/video, online uploading and downloading all connected to the web on a PC/DAW to do collaborations etc "TODAY! Adding a nice 4K 75in TV for a monitor makes it even better. And you DAW shouldn't freeze up like the old days.
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
Yes, it would or could but its turned off or disabled. Sincerely, Kurt... If you understood computing today, you'd actually see that Radar is foolish to even consider. Also, companies like Magix (makers of Samplitude or Sequoia) have a simple program you can install that optimizes your PC. Or, you can simply disable what you don't want running in the background, yourself. Which is what most of us do today.

To add... you actually want audio/video, online uploading and downloading all connected to the web on a PC/DAW to do collaborations etc. And they don't freeze up like the old days. At least not when I'm in control.
The modern DAWworld is so friken awesome now! Radar days are long gone dead
for me Chris, that's just more stuff i don't want to deal with. the last thing i want to do is video or upload / download or collaborate off the internet. i like it when everything happens in the same room at the same time.

what i want to do is get back to a tape based system . 1" 8, 1/2" half track track mix. vinyl. there's a market.
 

Davedog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2001
Location
Pacific NW
Tape is so expensive.
Radar used to make a 16 track system.

Sorry Kurt but all your explanations for NOT using a computer are moot these days. And I came from tape. I have mac minis in my studio. All of the things you say can happen rarely do if the system is setup. AND....believe it or not, you can isolate it to a single upgrade and stop any further upgrades. I still have my PTHD 10 system in a mac tower. It will never be able to be upgraded. It's at it's limit. But it still works quite well. A person could make high quality recordings on it for the rest of their life if they so desired. You have to look at a DAW like a tape recorder. The plug-ins is another story. Sometimes they become out of date and the company discontinues their use. But buying them stops that. Its usually the hacks that stop working when the updates out distance the system they are installed in.

But with great outboard you just patch what you want to record like you want. You dont HAVE to auto-tune (who would ever use that wonky program??) You don't HAVE to edit but you can. Easily. Your interface determines how many captures you can do at one time. I have 32 in my room. I had 20 with the old rig. It was always enough.

$100 gets you a high quality 4 terrabyte drive to work on. $173 gets you 33 minutes or so @15ips on 1" for a single trip and storage.

Ah well. Maybe you're a perfect client for a UAD Luna system? I've heard one and it's pretty damn amazing sounding. Imagine a whole rack of Helios preamps. And not just added later.......you play through them
 

Nobtwiddler

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Location
Millbrook, NY / Sharon Ct.
Exporting BWAV files from any version of Radar takes minutes.
Either using Ethernet wired directly to your Daw computer..
DVD's, CD's, and or any USB thumb drive.

Because of it's sound, dependability, and ease of use, I ALWAYS track to Radar, do all overdubs to it, and then export to DAW if required to mix.
Most times, because of the music I usually do, I just stay in Radar and Mix on the console.

Now with the new Radar Studio version, you can keep everything insides radar and just open the Daw of your choice right in the machine.

I have a few of those versions also, but haven't used it once!
(one os for sale)

Personally I love the regular Radar, V6 the best.
 

bouldersound

Real guitars are for old people.
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
Boulder, Colorado
yeah but it doesn't do internet and video and video chat and games or have a surreptitious camera running all the time and all the other stuff that home computers are built to do. there's no bloatware or hidden stuff running in the background. it doesn't pick up unwanted cookies and junk from the internet. once you have a system running there aren't any unwanted updates.

since it doesn't use plug ins the user isn't forced into a cycle of upgrades to keep compatible. i know it's a computer but it's a proprietary system that is not open. so it remains stable and is not subject to slowing down as time passes like many computers seem to be designed to do. last it is a product built for professional use. most computers are home appliances.

i love computers. just not for recording. i tried it and i don't like it. there's too much like menus and file directories and freezing channels and delay compensation etc. that doesn't have anything to do with music or the recording process for me to deal with. i distracts me. i don't like how hard it is to record into a mix. for the way i like to work, it doesn't work.

but if i did get a computer for recording i would want something like a Radar. but if others like recording on computers, that's good too. i'm not trying to convince anyone. just answering questions.
At my friend's studio (where he plays bass and I do the engineering), there's a Win 7 machine with Sony Vegas Pro 13 on it that isn't connected to the internet and hasn't been updated in something like six years. I only deal with directories when I'm starting a new project and need to set it to record to a new folder, or when I'm grabbing a project to take with me on a USB drive. Delay compensation is always on and just works. I've never had to freeze channels or anything like that.
 

paulears

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Location
Lowestoft - UK
What is the problem with the other things a computer does? I do understand the reason people buy reel to reel multitrack - there is something rather attractive with something that moves and makes noises, but Radar, as far as I can tell just mimics the operation of a tape machine.

I cannot remember the last time I did the electronic version of an old fashioned drop in, but the way I do it now is infinitely better. I cannot think of any reason - either than perhaps the audio quality, and frankly, everything has such good audio now, I wouldn't;t even have "good Audi' on my shopping list, because bad audio is so rare now. My computers all run via a network - that links my two sites so I can work anywhere., I can work on three separate computers on the same files, and I'm SOOOO much more productive. Every now and again my computer starts to get full. So will the Radar. The Radar updates over the internet doesn't it? It has a screen - so it's just a computer, dedicated to one job. My computer is still dedicated to audio - it has audio devices and controls fitted to it - but I can look at interesting add-ons, and within minutes be using them.

The Radar system looks interesting but I cannot find any reason that is obvious why I'd want to swap a computer for it? There must be something? I just don't know what it is?
 

Kurt Foster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Location
77 Sunset Lane.
that's all fine an dandy guys but i remain unconvinced. i've recorded with analog tape. i've recorded with digital tape and i've recorded with DAW. i like recording on DAW the least. along with the issues previously mentioned, i don't like how DAWs sound and i don't like / need the capabilities it offers. i don't need / want pitch correction and time shifting. i don't even know what the f spectral editing is but now i'm told i gotta have it! i object to the whole concept of virtual instruments. Last, i don't like mixing on virtual surfaces or itb. i don't like itb summing and i don't think the digital summing "mixers" in an itb system sound as good as even a cheap ass Mackie mixers summing.

tape is no more expensive today than it was in the 70's adjusting for inflation and the last thing i would ever do is purchase anything from Apple. they are the worst with the software upgrade cycles that drive hardware upgrade cycles. it's never ending. i would guess no one here can tell me they are working on an Mac system that is more than 2 years old. that speaks volumes to me.

i've watched guys repeatedly buying expensive software packages to install in expensive new computers that are running the newest expensive os software. they have to do it so they can run the new expensive plug ins that promise they are the closest thing to the thing they are emulating until the next time the software developers come out with the next expensive "closest plug in thing" they gotta have.

or they have to upgrade software to get a feature they never knew they needed until some software developer told them they needed it! I absolutly shut down when someone starts on about all the plugs they used to mix some dreadful piece of drek they produced. yeah, i can hear it. it sucks. i've watched people go through at least 2 or 3 systems in 5 years just so they can use the newest plug ins. for me that's a deal breaker.

i want a 1" 8 track and a couple smallish Yamaha M series mixers, a couple of verbs and a delay, an LA2a clone and a pair of LA 3 clones. that's what i'm shopping for. i can buy tape with all the money i save on buying computers, os systems, software, plug ins, the latest and best converters.
 

audiokid

Chris
Moderator
Joined
Mar 20, 2000
Location
Nanaimo BC, Canada
When I think about all the money I've spent, all the gear I've been blessed to own and use in the last 4 decades, the Studiolive series is by far the best deal going. Its ideal for home studios and musicians that play real instruments whom either want simple tracking or full on production options.
I've done many comparisons and this would be what I would suggest for most musicians with a budget starting at $2995.00. Thats crazy.
And for those who want to keep it simple... Presonus Capture (their simple Tape emulation program) is without question, the coolest Tape emulation tracking program out there.

 
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