Hi! I'm going to be recording a drummer to tracks already done. He's an excellent drummer with excellent gear, including mics.
I've got 2 choices - record in a reverberant garage (American style, 2-car, sheet rock, high ceiling, and pullup door), or record outside. It's in the country so outside noises won't be a problem.
I figure outside won't have reflections/phasing to contend with. But, baby, its cold outside.
It's warm inside, but it's an untreated room. How to make it better in there with no proper panels? I'm so ghetto sometimes.
What to do? No other choices are available. Of course, I'm not above drum replacement, either. But I'd rather not.
Thanks!
-Johntodd
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Excellent. I'd thought about old couches and stuff. It will he
Excellent. I'd thought about old couches and stuff. It will help some, and some is better than none.
Love the bookshelf trick. That's a form of a quadratic diffusor, eh? I'll look up the "book pattern" for best results.
What about keeping the garage door up during tracking?
go to home depot or harbor freight and pick up some moving blank
go to home depot or harbor freight and pick up some moving blankets. u haul has them also.
staple the blankets to the wakk an across the garage door. you ca place some on the ceiling as well. this won't do anything to control bass but it will do something to control reflections above 500 hZ. the garage should be large enough to make for a room without serious bass anomalies.
maybe throw some ply wood on the floor to put the drums on
throw one or two mics up as overheads and put a mic on the snare and one on the kick.
JohnTodd, post: 408889 wrote: Hi! I'm going to be recording a dr
JohnTodd, post: 408889 wrote: Hi! I'm going to be recording a drummer......
What to do? No other choices are available. Of course, I'm not above drum replacement, either. But I'd rather not.
Thanks!
-Johntodd
Uhhh... your choice is to track the drums, right??
So... uhhhh... track the drums.
I really don't understand some of the issues guys create out of nothing... I'm not ranting on you... but I am.
Your job is to track the drums... so track the damn drums... I fail to see what the issue is.
Too reverberant of a room? stick a few blankets up here and there. (although I seriously doubt the reverberation time in a garage is going to be too much for many styles of music.... Which, if that's the case, you're close micing anyway... just don't track rooms mic's and keep the OH's real close to the kit. There's no issue really...
Room isn't reverberant enough? Delay the room tracks or add on a bit more verb/delay... again, no issue.
Your job is to work with the artist to give them a product that they're happy with.
If you aren't capable of listening to your recording environment and knowing what you need to do modify that situation to get the desired results... then maybe you're not the guy for the gig.
The bottom line is this... a room is a room is a room... every environment has it's own sonic signature. You're either going to use that sonic signature as a feature, or you aren't. If you aren't, you need to tend to that need by altering your mic selection/technique, and/or the acoustic environment. That can be dealt with in many ways; drum tuning, damping/resonance, positioning from surfaces in the environment, and/or adding absorptive/reflective surfaces and/or isolation as Kurt has alluded to.
Unfortunately, unless you provide a good bit more detail about the "issue", no one can really tell you a reasonable path to follow to get what your artists vision is.
i'm sorry if you already know this facet of drum recording, but
i'm sorry if you already know this facet of drum recording, but Phase coherency is a must. out of phase drum tracks have that thin, weird, drums in a 'sh*tty room sound'. you can use mic placement and or polarity reverse on a pre/interface, or if you have to, a pluggin. the downside to the pluggin is it won't be audible during tracking. it amazes me, that i've read hundreds of magazines, and at least a dozen books, and not one of them, ever outlined a process for checking phase on a kit, no matter how basic the article is. but yet it was the first thing i was shown, on my first drum session. i start w. the primary kick mic, the 2nd one (if there is one) then each OH, and check the rest of the kit against the OH's. what ever sounds deeper, lower, fuller, is what listening for
you can also mount the blankets on mic stands too, w/ some zip ties, or tape, or just drape them, so you can put them closer to the kit, if thats your bag.
MadMax, post: 408901 wrote: Your job is to work with the artis
MadMax, post: 408901 wrote:
Your job is to work with the artist to give them a product that they're happy with.
Jeez Max ... that is entirely the issue here. My novice skills may not be sufficient. But they want them tracked there in that room. I'm simply trying to do the best I can with what I have, both mentally (skills) and physically (the room).
Now go back to your very nice studio and track some drums. We'll see who gets the better result. I've got a feel we already know who will.
kmetal:
Thanks! Phasing is very important.
John, often less can be more. try one mic oh and a kick and sna
John,
often less can be more. try one mic oh and a kick and snare. use a tape measure to place all the mics the same distance from each other following the 3 to one rule. place the kick and snare in the middle and pan the oh slightly to the right. then place another mic by the lo ride and floor tom again following the 3 to one rule and pan that left. that should really be all you need, especially if the drums are in the room all by themselves with no bleed. keep it simple.
Also, as a followup to Kurt's post, make sure to check the mix i
Also, as a followup to Kurt's post, make sure to check the mix in mono. If you hear things disappearing, then there are phase issues to contend with.
The more mics you use, the more probability you will have of potential issues. I'm not saying that you shouldn't individually mic each drum, but you'd be amazed at how good a 4 mic array can sound on a nice sounding, well tuned drum kit that is being played by a good drummer who knows their kit and how to play it.
1 mic on kick, 1 on snare, and two condenser OH's in an XY (or ORTF if you're hip to it) stereo array above the kit... and you may be surprised at just how good this can sound.
As far as opening up the door, putting down carpets, adding mass to the room in the form of couches, pillows, etc., truthfully, no one can really tell you exactly what to do, John.... because we aren't there.
Your space may sound just fine as is without any alteration, or it may need some help. Only you can really determine what you need to adjust, add, or subtract. And don't be shy about moving mics around a bit... sometimes it helps to have an assistant to move mics at your direction while the drummer is playing, so you can determine what you need to do in finding those "sweet spots", if there are any to find.. You'd be surprised at how much tonal difference ( both good and bad) there can be by simply moving a mic an inch or two in any given direction.
Good luck, let us know how it works out.
kmetal, post: 408905 wrote: i'm sorry if you already know this f
kmetal, post: 408905 wrote: i'm sorry if you already know this facet of drum recording, but Phase coherency is a must. out of phase drum tracks have that thin, weird, drums in a 'sh*tty room sound'. you can use mic placement and or polarity reverse on a pre/interface, or if you have to, a pluggin. the downside to the pluggin is it won't be audible during tracking. it amazes me, that i've read hundreds of magazines, and at least a dozen books, and not one of them, ever outlined a process for checking phase on a kit, no matter how basic the article is. but yet it was the first thing i was shown, on my first drum session. i start w. the primary kick mic, the 2nd one (if there is one) then each OH, and check the rest of the kit against the OH's. what ever sounds deeper, lower, fuller, is what listening for
you can also mount the blankets on mic stands too, w/ some zip ties, or tape, or just drape them, so you can put them closer to the kit, if thats your bag.
So many mixes that come through here have phase from exactly this. And its even worst when people are doing the infamous "round trip". There is so much phase in music today, I often think people are actually liking it because it masks the clarity of everything from pitch, talent, bad tracking, bad rooms etc. The word glue is starting to disturb me lol.
I know, everyone is thinking, not my mix. Well surprise, that's the difference between good, better, best.. The more you play with it, the more you introduce.
No wonder the old days sounded so good. In a real kind of way. None of this round trip and latency crap going on. All these plug-ins and processing issues that are doing something to the live sound/ performance. Not to mention, everyone that has a room and computer is recording now.
Clean that up and the truth is reveled but not an easy pill to swallow. We continue buying gear and software, thinking, HOPING, the next thing is going to "glue" the music. Its a circle. That's how I'm hearing it all.
Even if we don't have good monitoring, you can see bad alignment on the wave files. One of the best things about digital audio, you can at least see that. But, it can get too clear for comfort and thats when we decide to introduce "glue".
The first thing I do is check high hats for alignment between OV, Room, and all the drums (L/R) including vocal bleed. Once you get all that sorted, the bass and center focus tightens up. Its really easy to mix, and add the space back in a mix when its in phase and things are aligned. Thats how I hear it. Anyone else?
Dynamic mics are choice for you, forget condensers and simulate space after. Kill that bad room as much as you can because it will always be there and make your mix small and boxy.
Worst case scenario, drum replacement.
Also, if you want, I would be happy to use a few Bricasti's for your room replacement effect ( no charge) if it comes down to that.
Get it all done, send me the drum tracks and I'll try to help. Maybe it will be better, maybe not. Your choice. :)
Live performance is always choice but more than not, (depending on the style in today's standards) rooms are never as good as the Bricasti's.
I'm not suggesting we all go out and buy one, but since its relevant to the room, some reading this may find it interesting.
FWIW, one of the best things about the Bricasti M7 is how you can add reverb bass!
Bad bass tracked can be rolled off in the mix and re added via an M7. I'm not saying I would do that to every mix but , just saying. Up until I got an M7, I always cut more (HPF,LPF) top and bottom.
There's always a ton of phase mismatch of a transient sort, but
There's always a ton of phase mismatch of a transient sort, but very little of that matters when the signals are uncorrelated. It does matter when there are two versions of the same source/signal that have taken different routes to the recording system, and which are close enough in level. Inverting polarity may make phase error sound less bad but it cannot actually correct it. Time aligning might be the better option.
Time aligning drums is something I like to at least try, but you can really only do it with a coincident pair as overheads, otherwise you have two differing reference points. You can't align a close mic to two overheads at different distances, and if you don't align it to both there's really no point doing it. Generally I slide the overheads back to the kick first, since that's the biggest distance, and then align all the other close mics to the overheads. Nothing gets moved more than about 5ms. It's essential to check polarity as well while aligning. It's also not a bad idea to slide the whole kit to the right within that 5ms window to see if it locks up with the other instruments better. And if it doesn't sound better than the unaligned drums undo it all.
JohnTodd, post: 408935 wrote: Now that I've picked my chin up of
JohnTodd, post: 408935 wrote: Now that I've picked my chin up off the floor...thank you so much! I'd love to hear what a real engineer can do for less-than-stellar raw tracks.
:)
-Johntodd
I wouldn't call me a real engineer as much as I am a real musician, like you, John!
I'm still learning like the rest of us. I'm fortunate to have a few things that I wish we all had.
Sent from my iPhone
bouldersound, post: 408936 wrote: It's also not a bad idea to s
bouldersound, post: 408936 wrote: It's also not a bad idea to slide the whole kit to the right within that 5ms window to see if it locks up with the other instruments better. And if it doesn't sound better than the unaligned drums undo it all.
That's interesting. I love this topic. Can you explain that a bit more?
Am I understanding you correctly:
As mentioned, you have the drums where you want them, then take the entire kit, group together (?) and shift the kit to the right within 5ms to the timeline of the song?
JohnTodd, post: 408915 wrote: Jeez Max ... that is entirely the
JohnTodd, post: 408915 wrote: Jeez Max ... that is entirely the issue here. My novice skills may not be sufficient. But they want them tracked there in that room. I'm simply trying to do the best I can with what I have, both mentally (skills) and physically (the room).
Now go back to your very nice studio and track some drums. We'll see who gets the better result. I've got a feel we already know who will.
kmetal:
Thanks! Phasing is very important.
Me thinks you didn't quite get the gist of what I was saying....
I do remote work in some pretty "lousy" sounding rooms, and still get good drum tracks. Why?!?
Because I take the time to find out what the artist vision is, and I do my best to optimize what I do on my end to get them what they want.
Again, everyone's going all wonk over thinking your garage is going to be a "nasty" room sound.
I'll argue that point all day long... in that (once again) every single space you record in has a sonic signature. Even a dead space that has very little air column volume.
If they're wanting any reverberant space at all, throw a pair of room mic's up and point them away from the kit... maybe towards the corners... put em' low to the ground and pointing away from the kit or even 90 degrees from the kit..
What's important here, is to use your ears... including using phase issues to your advantage. Sometimes, using slightly out of phase signals can nullify problem frequencies. Granted, this more often applies to instruments other than drums, but it can (and does) happen... but it's all subjective, and generally, it's particular to each environment.
Check this video out for more insight: the Wikidrummer - YouTube
audiokid, post: 408938 wrote: That's interesting. I love this to
audiokid, post: 408938 wrote: That's interesting. I love this topic. Can you explain that a bit more?
Am I understanding you correctly:
As mentioned, you have the drums where you want them, then take the entire kit, group together (?) and shift the kit to the right within 5ms to the timeline of the song?
Yep. If the drummer is hearing the kit mostly acoustically then there's the varying acoustic delay from each drum to his ears so he may be locked based on that perspective, automatically compensating for the acoustic delays. Since we've moved the overheads to the kick instead of the opposite we've taken that delay out and the drums, though aligned together, may be a touch early.
If the drummer has headphones/IEMs and a lot of close mic in his mix then his time reference is essentially instantaneous and he would adapt to that by striking the drum on the beat rather than a few milliseconds early. In that case aligning to the left is probably going to be right. (With a digital board you could actually do the alignment while tracking, which would be cool because you would be adding about as much delay digitally in his 'phones mix as he would hear acoustically.)
If 5ms seems too small to notice I can say that I've heard sub-millisecond record offset between a looped drum part and a tight snappy bass part tracked to it. On playback the bassist and I both heard how the groove seemed to get sloppy. Looking into it I found a 46 sample (at 48kHz) offset.
MadMax, post: 408940 wrote: Me thinks you didn't quite get the g
MadMax, post: 408940 wrote: Me thinks you didn't quite get the gist of what I was saying....
I do remote work in some pretty "lousy" sounding rooms, and still get good drum tracks. Why?!?
Because I take the time to find out what the artist vision is, and I do my best to optimize what I do on my end to get them what they want.
Again, everyone's going all wonk over thinking your garage is going to be a "nasty" room sound.
I'll argue that point all day long... in that (once again) every single space you record in has a sonic signature. Even a dead space that has very little air column volume.
If they're wanting any reverberant space at all, throw a pair of room mic's up and point them away from the kit... maybe towards the corners... put em' low to the ground and pointing away from the kit or even 90 degrees from the kit..
What's important here, is to use your ears... including using phase issues to your advantage. Sometimes, using slightly out of phase signals can nullify problem frequencies. Granted, this more often applies to instruments other than drums, but it can (and does) happen... but it's all subjective, and generally, it's particular to each environment.
Check this video out for more insight: the Wikidrummer - YouTube
That is a cool video Max! Never put better. And what a simple but awesome kit. I loved the hats the most. thumb
bouldersound, post: 408942 wrote: Yep. If the drummer is hearing
bouldersound, post: 408942 wrote: Yep. If the drummer is hearing the kit mostly acoustically then there's the varying acoustic delay from each drum to his ears so he may be locked based on that perspective, automatically compensating for the acoustic delays. Since we've moved the overheads to the kick instead of the opposite we've taken that delay out and the drums, though aligned together, may be a touch early.
If the drummer has headphones/IEMs and a lot of close mic in his mix then his time reference is essentially instantaneous and he would adapt to that by striking the drum on the beat rather than a few milliseconds early. In that case aligning to the left is probably going to be right. (With a digital board you could actually do the alignment while tracking, which would be cool because you would be adding about as much delay digitally in his 'phones mix as he would hear acoustically.)
If 5ms seems too small to notice I can say that I've heard sub-millisecond record offset between a looped drum part and a tight snappy bass part tracked to it. On playback the bassist and I both heard how the groove seemed to get sloppy. Looking into it I found a 46 sample (at 48kHz) offset.
I am speaking specifically from a mix/mastering pov. Its interesting how we all arrive at things. When I'm reviewing a session, I listen to it through quite a few times. Then solo everything to better understand the room, the engineers, band, pro cons etc. Then pick the feature parts, get them to where I think they should be in relation to the overall direction ( as Max points out!) then, start comparing tracks as I mix into a master.
I'll more than often hear the hat slapping between the different tracks. Could be bleed or intentional, meant or better off left alone. Depends.
But, more times than not, aligning that hat, and listening to it bleed on tracks like the kick, vox, guitar etc ( finding it during a part where the artisit isn't playing) and lining them up centers the track really well. I will then add space around each one of those tracks to create a more musical room that fits the song. And continue mixing it all to taste. Thats sort of how I'm doing it.
I must say, drums are the ultimate part of every song for me. I just love them. Is there anything better !
Max, I hope I get a chance to hang with you one day. You really sound like you have a handle on the task at hand. To me, thats when you earn the title, pro :)
Actually, all you guys.
i think the ability to slip tracks has more of a negative effect
i think the ability to slip tracks has more of a negative effect than a positive one. on this i'm with Max, just record the damn things.
i always found it to be magical to have several players all in one room tracking at the same time and despite the fact there had to be some delay involved in monitoring (regardless of how it was done), they could all find a place to lock in and groove. nothing and i mean nothing sounds better than that imo. it's magic. of course the musicians have to be able to play but that's another can of worms. you don't get that these days with all the track slipping. imo i think the whole power trip producers and engineers are on is bull sh*t. just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
But that would be true if everyone wasn't using daws in the firs
But that would be true if everyone wasn't using daws in the first place creating all the weird alignments. I can't agree more up until round trip processing which I believe is doing something very in natural the the sound of music and the performances
Sent from my iPhone
i suspect a lot of the phase and out of time issues start at the
i suspect a lot of the phase and out of time issues start at the tracking stage. you record something and then eq it add some delay or verb (because you have so many instances of plugs) then presto you have introduced latency to the track. do this several times and then limit the 2-bus and it's a mess. of course you can use some latency compensation but then the daws doing more math = sounds more like sh*t.
i enjoyed the ability to build the mix in analog where i could eq /compress add effects while i was tracking. i could gate the toms and snare, while i was doing overdubs and in the short span of 3 hours record 3 or 4 songs and be on the verge of a final mix. can't do that now with daw. it really hinders me as i can't add tracks knowing what the processing on previously laid tracks will sound like. daw should die.
i add this is why i think most of the remaining pro recording studios still have a console be it Neve, API or whatever. the DAW is just another form of multitrack albeit with editing possibilities and the real mixing / summing is done on the console
Plus, you are basing this opinion on your work not other enginee
Plus, you are basing this opinion on your work not other engineers results.
You are from a time where you didn't use all this digital crap to replace analog gear
Today, I see and hear tracks that are so baked and over processed, including terribly recorded
When we read opinions, learning why people do things is subjective to all sorts of scenarios
Sent from my iPhone
several years ago i used to have a lot of issues with the "democ
several years ago i used to have a lot of issues with the "democratization" of pro audio. i'm sure you remember that Chris. i was very concerned that the high end would be forced out of the market by all the cheap gear i called "rack crap".
well surprise, surprise!! i have to admit i was mistaken in the long run. i have observed a real turn i the audio market place, the cream is rising to the top. ITB studios are mostly relegated to the semi pro / vanity market or dance music while the remaining real rooms are refitting with high end analog and new large format consoles and high end summing solutions for mixing and mastering. it looked as if the big studio was on it's last legs but there's been a turn around in the market place in the past couple of years. real music is on the rebound and as it's popularity rebounds the need for large studios is being re established. i see good things in the future only it's going to more expensive than it ever was.
i just happened to be listening to this while reading the this t
i just happened to be listening to this while reading the this thread, seems relevant to part of what we're talking about. @34:20
i must agree about the plugins, when i first got a powerful enough cpu and DAW bang 5 effects on every channel and endless mixes, vs the 1 echo i had and the eq on the portastudio, usually the mix too about 4-5 passes, and i used to eq on the way in (still do). first thing i was told about the current projects cd i was asked to hand in when i was trying to get a job was, sounds good, but there's way too many effects. i took them all off, and my mixes sounded bigger and fuller, so i went back to using sends.
Now something i've been wanting to bring up w/ you all, is do you find the same type of anomalies (degredation) when using dedicated dsp devices. do you find they 'stack' better. for instance at one of the studios, is a mackie D8B, which has an eq/compressor on every channel. now i know eq is essentially messing w/ phase relationships, but don't find that using the eq/comp even on 12 channels doesn't add that thinning mushy quality, that i have experienced, even w/ expensive native plugins. same w/ the effects on the DSP cards, they don't seem to add degradation, (or maybe i just can't hear it). my personal guess is that the cpu is doing far less math, by just sending/returing to processor.
Also what about outboard digtal effects like the yamaha spx 90, or the eventide h3000, which are available i just haven't hooked them up. do they exhibit this "DAW degradation"?
what do you all think about this?
audiokid, post: 408944 wrote: I must say, drums are the ultimate
audiokid, post: 408944 wrote: I must say, drums are the ultimate part of every song for me. I just love them. Is there anything better !
Max, I hope I get a chance to hang with you one day. You really sound like you have a handle on the task at hand. To me, thats when you earn the title, pro :)
Actually, all you guys.
C'mon down... we'd love to have ya!
Now as to there being anything better than drums/percussion... Uhhh... yeah... Quite a bit, IMHO.
A great Hammond player on a hot-n-nasty growlin' Hammond...
A well recorded amp playing great power chord structure...
A killa bass player drivin' the pocket from hell....
A 3 piece piano jazz band lockin' on the groove...
A 4 piece rock band locked and rollin'...
A full orchestra on the 3rd night of a performance...
A lone bagpipe in the mountains...
The sound of a perfect pitch... (Tossing an accordion in a dumpster and hitting two banjo's)
But a kit IS damned important 90%-95% of the time... On that much we totally agree.
The project I've got in here right now is a great example of drums being 100% of the guts of a project. Because if the drums suk... everything else will too... even if the rest of the song itself doesn't.
But, I think to my previous points, and those of Kurts as well, the kit, in this case, doesn't NEED to be lined up.. as a matter of fact, it's the minor differentials that are NECESSARY to establish the power and punch of the kit... a vintage 1976 Ludwig Vistalite kit with a 24" kick drum from hell.. that knocks yer d**k in the dirt.
It doesn't convey the energy of that kick unless you capture the room. A close mic gets plenty of the kick's energy... but no more than say, 20%. The low frequency energy that ends up putting that thump in your chest... that actual pressure wave... takes time to reach the corners and reflect back to the kit, fully developed into the blast of energy that it is. As a function of physics, time=phase=frequency as far as what you have to take into account.
So, to achieve a good capture, there's going to be a few mS delay from the first impact of the batter head, through the drum, and start to force the beginning of the pressure wave excursion to overcome the static position of the resonance head, then off the resonance head, to the immediate boundaries... (in whichever direction(s) that may lay)... and back to the drummers ear above the kick drum... who also detects the shorter, direct path from the batter head to the drummer's ear.
There will be "some" natural comb filtering that nothing can be done about... Sometimes that's a good thing... sometimes is sux. THIS is what everyone gripes about.
The simplest solution is to simply shift the timebase forward or backward to get things to line up in a pleasing manner... usually finding that further down the timeline is the quickest, simplest and probably the best way, to create space... by creating or enhancing distance.
How far is up to you and the discretion of the producer/artist.
Don't forget that time=distance... put time to work for you... just remember what RT60 looks like and adjust accordingly.
It sounds like a real space... because it IS a real space... not a real space that's being synthesized through an algorithm to achieve something close to a real space.
But take into account that there is only one rule... and that is that there are no rules.
audiokid, post: 0 wrote: To tune a piano not perfect, but musica
audiokid, post: 0 wrote: To tune a piano not perfect, but musical. (Whats that called again John?)
It's the difference between well temperament vs the "other" tempers. Tempers are tuning methods.
So, originally, people tuned instruments by ear 'cause they didn't have real tuners. Even a tuning fork only sounds one note.
When tuning this way, the instrument could be made to play perfectly in tune, however, that instrument can only play in one key! IOW, if you have to play in two different keys, you must have two different instruments all tuned up for those respective keys. Imagine toting a load of pianos around to play in different keys!
So J.S. Bach, et.al., decided to change the temper in an effort to get instruments with fixed notes, like a harpsichord, and later the pianoforte, to play in tune in all keys. They invented well-temper, or equal temper.
Equal Temper uses a mathematical formula to place each note equal distance form each other note. As a result, no matter what key you play in, all the notes are equally spaced. Ta-da! That's what we use today.
But, there are some exceptions and gotchas.
Firstly, the human voice uses no tempering of it's own. It must be learned. That's why some people are very accurate and some people are pitchy. Which is best? Robert Plant is pitchy, but is a legend. Autotune him and he sounds awful. Freddie Mercury is (usually) accurate. He may smear the pitch for sake of emotion, but he's usually spot on. Throw his pitch off and he sounds awful.
Second, true fretless instrument use no temper. Violins, etc., must be extra careful to put their fingers in the right spot so they can be on pitch. If the finger is off a little, they are out of tune. However, ever hear a string section? The reason is sounds like so many people are playing is because they are all off a little. Nobody's perfect, but hey, it still sounds great!
Thirdly, guitars are notorious for not accepting equal tempering. We compensate with finger pressure, by setting and resetting the intonation until our heads explode, using compensated saddles, and now, even compensated frets:
True Temperament - Fretting systems
As an aside, remember JS Bach? Back in his day, when he introduced the well-tempered instruments, people complained that they were out of tune!
Wow! I'm loving this thread!
Thanks!
-Johntodd
Not sure with cubase but I think this is pretty much standard on
Not sure with cubase but I think this is pretty much standard on how you move waves.
This is how I align tracks and correct sss and phase issues. I'm going to just think off the top of my head as I write this. Typo's and all, feel welcome to edit it and re post something if you like, drill me whatever. I'm not saying my way is right. Its what I do and it seems to work for me :) .
NOTE: I'm a mixer. This is a mixing POV. A different world from recording and mastering. However, I would place mixers closer to mastering because we often hear things in a mix that engineers don't notice or know can be augmented to serve the "CLIENT" better.
I get a variety of techniques from all sorts of talent. Some recordings are perfectly fine where others are terrible. But, all tracks will benefit from some fine adjustment somewhere in a mix.
Listening at LOW volume and also with headphones can help.
At the same time I do this, I will also tune into ssss and in Sequoia, object based editing becomes a major "right on!". Nothing is better. This alone is worth the price of admission for Samplitude / Sequoia. I use OBE to fine tune cymbal bleed compounding Vox track sss. ( is it the cymbals or the sss).
The standard way I time align.
I listen a few times through the song, specifically for phase and a direction. I listen to the cymbals. If they have the swirly sound, I know we have problems.
If they are tight, clear and open sounding (left to right to center), and translate like this throughout the tracks, we are golden.
If they are hard to define ( messy), then something is wrong. I can correct this by aligning, or eliminating something all together. Last option might be drum replacement. Doing nothing is never an option for me. I can always improve a mix.
Likewe all mix, I listen to each track for an open but tightness.
There are times the engineer uses bad micing techniques and wayyy too many mics, or bad condenser mics way to open. Dynamics would be better. I get tracks with mics that were all over the place too. Why people use so many mics is beyond me. Clean and simple leaves so much more room for "big".
If I find drums poorly leaking on example: the Vox track. I will usually tune into the cymbals or the hats, find the best place where they are clear and easily analyzed..
I then find the actual hat or OV tracks and line them up to the Bleed on the Vox until they sound open and true ( not phasey, swirly).
Again, each session, engineer to engineer has no rules here. Every engineer, every song has their weaknesses so its all about listening and creating space. Its not a matter of lining up tracks the same way each time you do this either. Its about phase and listening song to song, engineer to engineer, room to room. etc.
Save your original and experiment with this using scratch versions. Compare mixes to your original. Learn learn learn. This will not only improved the mix but it teaches you how to listen and identify problems before they are printed. You will hear walls beside mics. Bad timing of reflections. Remember how I heard your wall on that one mix. It sounded like it was about 4 ft away?
Carrying along:
I will continue this process with each track per track searching for un wanted bleed ( not good bleed, there is a difference) and make decisions based around keeping the sound open and full. The minute it changed to less, stop and backup.
Check the phase, when a track sounds thin, flipping the phase might sound more open, lower freq will shine and the center focus, or L/R will sound more even. If a track is too boomy, you can often flip the phase to thin it out. You can also morph a direct Bass and the mic's bass track together using phase to tune it just right for the key of a song better than HPF or EQ.
I also mark the spots that have the best examples of the area(s) I am using to align something. Makes fast A/B comparisons.
Without this turning into a book, hope this helps get you closer. It will surely help you discover how plug-ins and round trip processing effects music, even when you had it right to begin with!
Does this make sense? Hope it helped
JohnTodd, post: 408966 wrote: It helps a lot. I just wish this
JohnTodd, post: 408966 wrote: It helps a lot. I just wish this was one of those times when there WAS hard and fast rules.
Back to the woodshed to improve myself! :)
Thanks!
-Johntodd
My best advise is keep doing what you are doing, you have tons of talent.
Other than that, these are my general rules.
- Watch your levels,
- Use as little optional / third party plugs as necessary, Why? Well I'm going to duck on this.... most DAW's run better with what they came with. I know we have our fav's, but thats what I think. With the exception of only a few, IMHO, if you have invested in a DAW that needs bundles of outside help, EQ after EQ, comp after comp, limiters, tube effects effects.... not where I would be going. Some guys have 100 plug-ins. I don't get it?
- Unless you are a very good tracker, use hpf on everything. Why? If your mix is struggling, bass, phase or alignments are the first place to go to improve a mix. HPF 60 hz or more (ya more) on all tracks will clean things up. Vox especially. Bottom end can be added on the master. Bass G and Kick are the only tracks I will choose which one gets the sub. Everything else is rolled off. Hpf helps avoiding unnecessary EQing ( in the wrong spots) . So many times we reach for high freq when a simple roll off on the bass cleans things up dramatically.
- LPF is another good thing to do if you have budget converters. You can add that on the master.
- Mix at low volumes.
- Check mixes in mono
- Treat your room
- Use dynamic mics over cheap condensers.
- Rules are meant to be broken.
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Anyone else? What are your standards?
And to switch to another channel for a brief message of what I would never buy into: Here is a great example of " hard to believe". I cannot imagine what this guys mixes sound like.
I love the HPF trick. Sir George Martin taught me that (in a bo
I love the HPF trick. Sir George Martin taught me that (in a book).
I've noticed that plug-ins tend to reproduce in my computer. I've got tons of them, most of which I never use.
My standards are Waves Vocal Rider, which lets me use less compression, Waves IR1 convo reverb, Waves L3 Multi Maximizer, and Waves API 2500 compressor. Wow. I never realized how much I use Waves. Fortunately I had a benefactor that bought these for me (long story.)
Lately I've been more picky about ambience and reverbs. I was afraid of all that, and so my mixes were always dry, up-front, and punchy. But lately I've forced myself to add 'verb to things other than vocals. Guess what? You already know...LOL!
What I want to know is this: How do I sculpt the kick-bass guitar area? I understand that concept: Take out competing frequencies from one so the other can have the space. But how do I tell which one to EQ out?
JohnTodd, post: 408970 wrote: What I want to know is this: How
JohnTodd, post: 408970 wrote:
What I want to know is this: How do I sculpt the kick-bass guitar area? I understand that concept: Take out competing frequencies from one so the other can have the space. But how do I tell which one to EQ out?
220 Hz. boost the bass and cut the kick with a narrow Q. really makes the bass guitar cut through on small speakers.
Thanks! Last night I was handed a project from an old school fr
Thanks! Last night I was handed a project from an old school friend. It was recorded in a living room with the whole band and "a guy who really knows how to mic things".
Oh, the bleed! And the toms had a 400, 200, and 80Hz ring!
But, thanks to many gates and eqs, I have it sounding decent.
I wonder if this project would be a candidate for a mixing contest? Could be a challenge.
You could use any stuff that can absorb sound to reduce the prob
You could use any stuff that can absorb sound to reduce the problems (if any) of the garage. Put out some blankets and stuffed animal!! ;)
In an uncontroled live environement, close mic is your choice. The closer you get to the source the less room you get. But depending on the style of music, drums often like a bit of room sound that makes them alive. Don't discredit the room before tracking in it, it might sound amazing and you'll never know it before you try. You need to listen carefully to the tracks and if you hear problems try to fix them with fabrics and materials you have on hand. You'd be surprised how good a bookshelve can do as a diffuser. Also pick the spot to install the drum by tapping hands, if you hear pingpong delay ; wrong spot.. ;)