I have a new batch of about 20 songs I just finished working on and when I put them on a CD, they are low in volume. The last CD I did was much louder in volume. Basically, they are all pushed as much I can push them without clipping. How can I get these tracks to have more volume?
Comments
pr0gr4m wrote: How are you mixing your tracks down to stereo? W
pr0gr4m wrote: How are you mixing your tracks down to stereo? When you play them back what are your stereo output meters reading?
Need a bit more info to be able to properly address this question.
In logic express...I am mixing down 8-20 tracks to a stereo wav. On the stereo out (master out) I have the levels as high as I can get them before they go into the red. When I try to use the limiter on the master out it either pumps or sounds horrible. I've never had this problem before. I can't figure it out.
You may have reached the volume where the mix wants to be. It
You may have reached the volume where the mix wants to be.
It may take serious coaxing to go further (not T-Racks or a brickwall limiter).
You might try adding judicious compression at the track and bus level where needed (IF needed). If the tracks and buses are already heavily compressed or limited, that very well might be your problem - Ramming overly comressed tracks into a compressor (or limiter) dosen't tend to sound pretty.
THERE IS NO SET IT AND FORGET IT FIX. It takes years for peopl
THERE IS NO SET IT AND FORGET IT FIX.
It takes years for people to get to the point of cranking their mixes to compete with commercial releases.
I don't know how else to say it. If it were as easy as popping a plugin on the mix bus, then it would be that easy and there wouldn't be any mastering engineers.
Until that day, you'll have to try different things until you get it where you like it. But since every mix has it's own issues, i don't think that day will come. Only experience will get you there. I know it's not the answer you want to hear, but that's the way it is. Even if one person has an opinion, that's one guys take on the situation. Every ME will have a different opinion.
Well, I am glad you are so full of yourself Michael. This forum
Well, I am glad you are so full of yourself Michael. This forum is the most unfriendliest place I have been to. I wasn't asking for set it and forget it fix... just some things that I could try on my own to figure out what I am doing wrong. However, all you get here is people telling me to spend money or that it is not easy. If I took that advice, I will never learn. Yes, if I was recording for a living, I would spend the money on an ME. However, in the mean time...I just am trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong so I can make mixes that are barable to listen to.
Whoah, easy JS. This is a friendly place, but just because you
Whoah, easy JS. This is a friendly place, but just because you don't like the answer (which was spot on, by the way), don't sling mud at Michael. I can't go to an auto racing forum and ask an IRL mechanic how to make my pickup truck run like an Indy car. Why? Because
1. I don't have the specialized tools that he has.
2. I don't have his experience.
3. He doesn't know the first thing about my truck or what kind of condition it's in.
4. We may be talking apples and oranges, since he works on Indy cars and I'm working on a pickup truck (the problem may not be with your final levels, but further up the chain, perhaps with the mix itself).
among other things.
But, as a starting point, make sure that you understand exactly what it is that makes digital audio on a CD "loud." You're saying that even when the master meter is indicating clipping, the audio still isn't loud. At the same time, you say that under heavy limiting on the master bus, the mix pumps. I'd explore those 2 points deeper and see if they might be related.
In a mix, with regard to mastering (which is FAR more than making a mix "loud"), dynamics and overall level (what you refer to as "loud"ness) are typically mutually exclusive. More of one means less of the other. For maximum overall volume, you will need to find a way to maintain a consistent level on the master bus. This means that that slammin' kick that you love in the mix may either need to come down in level, or be compressed to sit in the mix a little better. I'm guessing that when you say the master meter indicates clipping, it's only momentary (the attack of a given instrument; maybe the kick, maybe the snare, maybe the attack of the guitar). Consequently, when you limit the master output, that one instrument is engaging the limiter, causing an audible pump across the whole mix. Go back to the original mix and see if you can identify any one particular track or combination of tracks that are punching through periodically. They may sound great, but if they're sticking out front and eating up your headroom, you'll have a very hard time getting a good sounding, louder CD with the rudimentary tools that you are using. So, if this is the problem, find a way to tame that track(s). It would be easiest to address this by either reducing that track's level in the mix, or applying compression to that/those individual track(s).
Additionally, there could be some very low frequency information that is eating up headroom, but isn't that audible on your playback system(s). Maybe try a highpass filter in the neighborhood of 40 hZ to make sure there's nothing nasty sneaking through and getting in the way.
These are only 2 suggestions and potential fixes to your problem. It is absolutely impossible for anyone here to give the specific quick-fix answer that you have demanded without having heard your mix. Again, please don't fly off the handle and get upset because you don't like the answers you've been given. It's the old addage "Don't ask a question to which you don't want the answer."
Good luck.
Well here's a thought right off the bat - If you're COMPRESSING
Well here's a thought right off the bat - If you're COMPRESSING something and it INCREASES in volume, something is very, very wrong...
Unless you're using one of those goofy maul-the-band (multi-band) compressor/maximizers... If that's the case, try it with standard compression - The volume and dynamic range should DECREASE approximately the amount of gain reduction, allowing you to then push it back up. MBC's in the hands of someone who doesn't really, REALLY understand how to use it will almost always case much more harm than good...
its probably an auto-gain adjustment making it louder. a lot of
its probably an auto-gain adjustment making it louder. a lot of plugins compensate volume by default.
okay, anything you do is gonna be half assed as far as finalizing goes, but thats unavoidable unless you wanna shell out the cash to have an engineer do it.
basically.
EQ it if it needs it, want to make it decently flat. listen A/B to a mixed song through your stereo with your EQ settings, and without. if you mix it where it sounds 'right', then youll end up running it through a stereo and getting extreme sharpnesss and boominess.
multiband compression. generally about 20 attack, 100 release, 1.2:1 ratio on mids, 1.4:1 on the rest. sub can jack the peak up fast if its not balanced well in the mix. you want 3 bands. only sub in low (where you cant hear any instruments really, just thump and low end bass) generally roll off around 150hz at most.highs usually above 8khz, only capture the cymbols and the highest breathy noises. set the thresh so it is only shaving off a few dB from each band. this will pump a few more dB out. theres a good free multiband compressor out there, by slim slow slider (i think thats the name).
-----you might skip the multiband if you dont really know what your doing, as said above, you could end up messing up your songs with it, especially if you overcompress it will sound detatched-----
limiter. get one that has out celling, set it to -0.1. set the thresh down to as loud as you want, if you go too far youll end up oversquishing your mix, or sometimes actually distorting it. youll definitely notice its too far when a huge sub part hits and it ducks everything else down (unless you like that effect, sometimes has a nice musical quality to it). if you hear pumping in your song youve set it too far down.
USE THE LEVEL METER and set it to peak/rms.
generally mixes have an RMS of -10dB, at least rock/metal does. if you can hit -10dB without any problems, youre doing pretty good, as itll sound pretty clear on any setero system. your mix is probably sitting at -20dB or so.
also use a spectrum analyzer after youve tweaked, it can show you a lot of things if you know what to look for. usually you can do it by ear, but an analyzer can point out overlooked problems. also will help you tell where your sub lies (usually is solid and doesnt move much) and highs are (they usually move a LOT) as well as tell how flat your response is.
as i said its better to get an engineer to go through it, since they can pinpoint problems that you may only hear years down the road in a matter of seconds. they have the equipment to push your songs to competitive mixes without any problems.
Michael Fossenkemper wrote: If it were as easy as popping a plug
Michael Fossenkemper wrote: If it were as easy as popping a plugin on the mix bus, then it would be that easy and there wouldn't be any mastering engineers.
joe lambert wrote: Hire a talented pro mastering engineer and you will be very happy.
exactamundo! :wink:
as a constructive suggestion:
you might hire a friendly qualified mastering engineer in your area to do 3 of your tunes,
see if he'll let you attend the session, maybe you'll pick up a few pointers. 8)
Yeah, the problem is that I switched computers, so I made loops
Yeah, the problem is that I switched computers, so I made loops of all of the beats I was working on. Those beats were not ready though...and my BX5s did not let me know that. Before I got rid of everything, I should have listened to them on other cheap systems...and I didn't. It is a rough lesson, but oh well.
JSRockit wrote: Ok, thank you. I have a feeling the tracks are
JSRockit wrote: Ok, thank you. I have a feeling the tracks are doomed. However, it gives me a good idea of what not to do in the future.
Ahh my good friend experience has come to visit.
Now don't throw it out without learning as much as you can from it. You paid for it already so you might as well get all you can.
Engineers that work alone have a pretty hard time figuring it out. When I was a budding mix engineer back in the late 80's, I made friends with experienced veteran's. I would take something I was working on and walk down the hall to where one of them was working and they would listen to it with me and give me some ideas. they are called mentors. They would point out problems and acknowledge good things. over the years you build up enough knowledge to make things good. I would wash their car, get them a sandwich, whatever I could to show my appreciation.
Very skilled engineers that I know still do this. They have other engineer friends and they all listen to each others stuff and throw their 2 cents in. They go out to dinner, buy each other drinks. This is even after engineering 20 years.
Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Very skilled engineers that I know s
Michael Fossenkemper wrote: Very skilled engineers that I know still do this. They have other engineer friends and they all listen to each others stuff and throw their 2 cents in. They go out to dinner, buy each other drinks. This is even after engineering 20 years.
8-) 8-)
I just want to post a few issues I have with Rider's post - Of c
I just want to post a few issues I have with Rider's post - Of course, IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Multiband compression should be used when a mix needs it and only if. I know so many people who reach for the MBC right off the bat - It has specific uses that it's designed for, and has ruined more mixes than I can count. It's definitely NOT something you want to strap across a mix "because it's there." If there's sibilance or overtones that can't be fixed during the mixing stage, maybe... If you have access to the tracking files, I can't honestly think of one decent reason to put a MBC across a mix (except to make it sound distorted and grainy, which many people for some reason consider "good"). And *if* there's a problem bad enough to warrant it's use, the number of bands should be determined by the problem. If there's an overtone in the lows, two bands (one left completely alone and one to fix the problem) is plenty.
Limiters: 0.1dB is too high for most consumer gear. Actually, 1dB is too high. Then again, I have a serious problem with most digital limiting in general. But if I had to choose a setting, somewhere between -0.5 and -0.3 ish would be the absolute ceiling. Most of the stuff that comes out of here is at -1.0 and -0.5 depending on how the limiters catch it on the analog pass - After that, I don't touch it. There's no reason to hoard the last tiny bit of a bit. Some D-A converters handle reconstructive distortion in style - Most don't. They'll appreciate that tiny bit of headroom. Especially if the mix is going to be squashed anyway.
Most mixes (metal or not) at -10dBRMS sounds like crap. I've only heard several (BIG budget) recordings that held up at that volume - barely. The mix will let you know the level it wants to be at. Hearing what the mix is telling you comes with experience. Pushing the mix beond where it wants to be is always a compromise and the mix will suffer for it - no matter how good you are or how much experience you have. I've heard very few recordings over -14dBRMS that are worth listening to. Not that I'm not "forced" to crank them out at elevated levels, but few can argue that they would sound better if people would just turn the volume knob up instead.
Again, IMHO, YMMV, yada, yada, etc., etc. [/RANT]
On most portable CD players (and older Pioneer car CD players),
On most portable CD players (and older Pioneer car CD players), "10" is unity gain with each consecutive decrease of 1 being -3dB (as in 9 = -3dB, 8 = -6dB, 7 = -9dB, and so forth and so on) until 0 (which = -∞)and will reflect the level at which the recording was mixed at. For a home mastering job, you can expect your levels to compare with 6-8.
Well, they are rough, but I got some of the songs to sit at arou
Well, they are rough, but I got some of the songs to sit at around 7 on my portable CD player. I know this is wrong, but I just jacked the master volume and then normalized to 98%. They don't distort when I'm playing them on the portable CD player at all...and it isn't distorting bad on some cheap computer speakers I have around. It will be good enough for my friends, but I wanted more. Oh well, back to the lab to concoct a better formula.
mixandmaster wrote: [quote=Massive Mastering] And *if* there's a
mixandmaster wrote: [quote=Massive Mastering] And *if* there's a problem bad enough to warrant it's use, the number of bands should be determined by the problem. If there's an overtone in the lows, two bands (one left completely alone and one to fix the problem) is plenty.
(y)
Yeah, lets initiate John to Belgium beers if not already (y)
Thats the way,it's the only way to learn,is from mistakes,thats
Thats the way,it's the only way to learn,is from mistakes,thats all the guys here were trying to say in the firstplace,I reckon if they got 5 bucks each time that question was asked none of us would be sitting in a studio,every ME would be lying on the beach dispensing advice from a mobile phone on how to boost levels.The best way to learn is to know where you stuffed up ,and don't get trapped again.I think the main thing I find with mixes that need fixing with eq is that a lot of the low mids have been eq out during mixdown,so then the whole mix sounds like it has no body to it ,sort of an empty feel.
Hey JS! After reading all the posts here, I'm really confused.
Hey JS!
After reading all the posts here, I'm really confused. If you're peaking at 0dBfs or even clipping, but the volume on your boombox has to be cranked to hear it - something doesn't add up. True, the overall "volume" of the track may be low, but a peak of full-scale should send you running for the volume to crank it down. (Unless it's always the kick thats causing it to clip - less perception of extreme volumes in the lower frequencies.)
Here's my offer -
Send me one or two of your files. MP3 would be fine, but I'd prefer WAV or even your entire track mix in WAV files. (If need be, I can set you up with a temporary public FTP on my site for uploading).
I'll listen and play around with it a bit and then let you and the group know what it is that I did and what problems I found.
Here's my caveat(s) -
* I'm not the caliber mastering engineer as John or Michael. Their advice is quite good and I would keep it in mind. Anything I could do, they could probably do better.
* Understand that even though I'm not one of the "big boys," I still do have specialized tools from a Mastering Grade DAW to Mastering grad converters and outboard effects and plugs. Please don't expect to get great mastering results with anything less. (Unless your definition of "anything less" includes dropping $50 a track to have it mastered. That's my going rate - for the moment.)
Contact me off-line if you are interested. My e-mail address is: jeremy@sublymerecords.com
J. (y)
Massive Mastering wrote: Multiband compression should be used wh
Massive Mastering wrote: Multiband compression should be used when a mix needs it and only if.
i dont use it on my mixes, but ive heard some that definitely could use it.
Massive Mastering wrote:
Limiters: 0.1dB is too high for most consumer gear. Actually, 1dB is too high.
i hope you mean negative 0.1, or negative 1, because celling only goes to 0 on Waves L2. theres been posts on (i think here) that say generally set the out to -0.1, something to do with certain CD players. anyway, -0.3 or -0.5 sounds nice too, thats not that big a difference to the ears but gives some more room.
Massive Mastering wrote: Most mixes (metal or not) at -10dBRMS sounds like crap.
maybe the ones that are constnatly above -10RMS, but loudest parts being louder seems pretty consistant in many albums ive heard.
random song, iced earth: goes -20RMS at soft to about -14 and -11 at loudest.
nightwish's Nemo pushes -10 to -8 at loudest.
ive ran plenty of songs through to compare not only RMS but EQing and levels and such, and a majority of them usually hit -10 at some point.
Well, I don't wanna speak for John, but he know his stuff well e
Well, I don't wanna speak for John, but he know his stuff well enough to be speaking in negative terms relative to 0dBfs.
As for the RMS levels - there's some basic physics involved in the appropriate levels.
An increase of 10 dB represents a doubling in amplitude (notice, I didn't say "volume"). In other words, a track which stays within -10 dBfs RMS has the impression of never having a dynamic range of greater than 2:1. This is simply painful to listen to. Even the most ardent and deaf Britney fan couldn't tolerate that without wanting to lopp off their ears. You may as well cue up some pink noise and sit back and listen.
A level of -20 dBfs in the RMS realm represents up to and beyond a 4:1 dynamic range. Believe it or not though, in the RMS realm, this can be wayyyy too much. Since in simple terms RMS is somewhat of an average of levels over an arbitrary amount of time, an average of -20 dBfs would simply produce a "quiet" mix or one with serious deviations in dynamics and amplitude. (eg. repetitive snare attacks followed by silence a la Dave Matthews "Ants Marching")
To say that one or the other is superiour is a bit short sighted - it truly depends on the mix.
Of course, this is my only slightly educated opinion.
J.
Rider - Yes, I meant -0.1, etc. With this keyboard, I'm surpris
Rider - Yes, I meant -0.1, etc. With this keyboard, I'm surprised aynnoe cna udnresntnad me ta al.
But you bring up a good point - Dark Saga (Iced Earth) sounds absolutely kick-ass - Dynamic, powerful, in-your-face when it needs to be and very subtle when it warrants it.
Nemo, on the other hand... :-?
level and RMS is all nice and dandy to describe how loud a recor
level and RMS is all nice and dandy to describe how loud a record is, but does nothing to describe how it sounds. I can take a record to an average of -5db RMS but all that says is something in the mix pushes it to that level. spectrum and level work hand in hand. low end has more rms. I can peak a hip hop record at -1db rms, but a rock record wouldn't do very well at that level. RMS is very misleading in describing a mixes overall level.
I really don't shoot for any specific level meter wise. I have m
I really don't shoot for any specific level meter wise. I have my volume pot set to where I listen to everything at and I push the mix to where it sounds good at that level. At that point I will take a look at the meters and make a mental note about where they are sitting for the rest of the project. I'm not really concerned with how the mix stands up to other unrealated material meter wise. It almost seems backward thinking to shoot for a meter setting. " I push it to here and then I see how it sounds ". I'm not saying you are doing that but it seems like it's in the back of you mind. Try not even using a meter for a bit. better yet, don't use a meter for a whole project. If you start to feel a little uncomfortable and unsure about where everything is sitting, then you are using your eyes to much and not your ears. I tried it and was shocked at how much I was looking at the mixes. I feel that since I've changed my approach to metering, things actually sound better.
There is an easy way! Hire a talented pro mastering engineer and
There is an easy way! Hire a talented pro mastering engineer and you will be very happy.
Anything else is ...