mmm-kay. Some of the best sounding records ever recorded were done using those UA 610 pres. The designer, Bill Putnam owned United Recording in Chicago and then LA. This studio evolved ito what we now know as Ocean Way. Nat "King" Cole, recorded many of his hits with Putnam at United. That being said this pre has a LOT of color. An unmistakeable sonic signature. It could be a bit much to use it on everything. The Sebatron is a pre that can have a lot of color and attitude also but is more flexible for varied applications. For just a liitle more than what you are saying you are spending, you can get a vmp 4000 and have 4 channels of pres. A lot more bang for the buck! You can hear what a Sebatron sounds like across a whole song at the Audio Projects page. There is also an example of the JLM TMP8 posted there. Happy listening. Let me know what you decide after you hear the demos.. Kurt

The UA 610 is a heavy colored mic pre, if that is the sound you want, then it should serve you well. The TLM-103 is a real hot mic, but you can you buy an in-line pad for it and all will be ok. The Vintech is also very colored but not as heavy. But they are really two different things. I think you need you both for variety and for the tone that you can't get in software.

[ October 22, 2003, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: AudioGaff ]

AudioGaff brings up the pad and the TLM 103. The Sebatron vmp has a switchable 15dB / 30dB pad built in. Sounds like a match to meeeeeee.... :D

You can also kick these pads in and then drive the pre harder to get a given gain, this adds more color the harder you drive the pre. Neumans through Sebatrons are wonderful.. that is a U87 in the demo I posted..

An in-line pad or two is just one of things that everybody should have in their accessary drawer.

Kurt, you pitch that Sebatron stuff more and as hard as any salesman I've ever known. Fess up, what is your cut on the deals? It might be good stuff but the full time banner ad and you being a mod on the group, and the group owner being a dealer sure hints of a conflict of interest if your trying to be objective and be fair. You never seem to mention any other products that are in the same class or price range? Not trying to jump on ya, but it often appears fishy to me and others as well I'll bet.

Yes, I've heard a lot of good things about the seb and sure are interested. But, I only hear good things about them on this bbs. I went to check locally on the SEB and JLM and no one has heard of them around here. I know UA builds quality stuff. I'm sure I could sell it and get my money back and then some. Not sure about the JLM and SEB. I definitly don't need someting that is TOO colored esp since it will be across a bunch of tracks. How does the UA 2 610 sound on Voxes, Kick/SNare/ Ac gtr. etc? How would that sound differ if using a SEB. Sorry, but i dont have any experiance in nice mic pres and am trying to make a wise purchase. Perhaps I should save up some more and pick up the dual Grace or API Quad, Red 8, Vintech Dual etc. Please help steer this newbie in the right direction. Thanks so much.
J

Originally posted by AudioGaff:

Kurt, you pitch that Sebatron stuff more and as hard as any salesman I've ever known. Fess up, what is your cut on the deals? It might be good stuff but the full time banner ad and you being a mod on the group, and the group owner being a dealer sure hints of a conflict of interest if your trying to be objective and be fair. You never seem to mention any other products that are in the same class or price range? Not trying to jump on ya, but it often appears fishy to me and others as well I'll bet.

This could just be a "cause and effect" situation. They tried the mic pre, and liked it so much that they decided to add a forum, resell the product, etc. If they liked it that much, it makes sense that Kurt would recommend it whenever appropriate.

So the question becomes, "Does Kurt recommend it because of the ties to RO?", or "Does RO have ties to Sebatron because Kurt likes it so much?".

If it is half as good as Kurt professes it to be, then I would guess that RO got involved with SEB because it is so good, and is basically an unknown quantity here in the States. What a great opportunity to get in on the ground floor.

but Audiogaff does have a point, it *can* look suspicious at times...RO needs to make sure that they look unbiased.

From now on Kurt, I would recommend to folks that are trying out mic pres to compare the Sebatron to another high-end mic pre, like...say the ART tube mp, and then make their decision!!! :D Hahaha!!!

Seriously now folks:

I will admit that I hear nothing about the Sebatron mic pres except here on RO, and with RO involved in the resale, it can look a bit fishy. But I will also state without hesitation, that I trust Kurt's judgement and integrity, and I don't think that he would sell out like that. I am sure that RO got involved because the Seb was so good, rather then they RO got involved, and then tried to make it good.

Sorry for rambling...

Howdy

I would agree with the comments saying the 610 is a very "colored" preamp. You're right that you wouldn't want that color on a whole lot of tracks but for the right track it may be magic.

Inline pads from Shure are in the $10 - $20 range and always useful to have around.

The phrase "starter pre" is why I might vote against this idea. I agree with others here in thinking that the UA pre would be a great "second" (or maybe third) preamp, but for a first preamp you might want something more versatile.

As far as the other issue raised, it is generally considered good form for anyone to disclose their financial connections with a particular company if they are making a recommendation to buy one of their products. Even if it is just a reference in the signature line. (e.g. Joe Shmo, Head Custodian at Sebatron, Inc.)

I personally think Kurt's recommendations are sincere, as he recommends a lot of products and he can't possibly have a financial interest in all of them. But since avoiding the appearance of conflict of interest can be so easily handled with a disclaimer, one might as well do it.

In defense of Kurt he's made that disclaimer here before. I think anyone that lurks here for any length of time knows that. I see no reason for him to change his recommendation as long as he's really excited about that pre.

Perhaps I should save up some more and pick up the dual Grace or API Quad, Red 8, Vintech Dual etc. Please help steer this newbie in the right direction.

Seeing as you already have the mic pre's in the mixer and the Joe Meek, something colored or very colored would be a nice option. What about mic's? Having great mics is a must. You might be better served to buy one or two really good mic's now. I guess I'm just stuck in the past as I always seem to prefer and recommend the older stuff like the John Hardy, UA, Focusrite ISA/Red, API, Neve. I think the API or Vintech would serve you well as being pretty colored but still multi-purpose. After all, many studios bought entire consoles with Neve and API for mic pre's and didn't use anything else. The UA 610 is not as flexable or universal, but it does have an old fasion phat tone not found too often in newer gear. If you knew you really liked it's sound and were planning on getting something else to add to it in the near future, then consider it as well as any other.

Ahh, what do I know? You might just skip it all and concentrate on your existing gear and develop your skills using it before spending any money. That is how we used to do it in the old days...

(...oh guys, big deal!)

I recently bought some API stuff. They're great for all purposes, they have a little attitude but the accumulated effects are not overbearing at all - just very plesent, especially for rock music.

The six space lunch box for under 500, and a single channel pre for 650 - it's a little over a grand, but you'll have 5 spaces left over if you find you want more.

Howdy

I think API was having a "free lunch box" giveaway a couple of months ago. I thought I recently saw a dealer online that was still honoring that. Pretty good deal.

Yeah, Vintage King still does that, buy 4 modules, get 6 space lunch box free. (that's where I've gone before)

Originally posted by AudioGaff:
An in-line pad or two is just one of things that everybody should have in their accessary drawer.

Kurt, you pitch that Sebatron stuff more and as hard as any salesman I've ever known. Fess up, what is your cut on the deals? It might be good stuff but the full time banner ad and you being a mod on the group, and the group owner being a dealer sure hints of a conflict of interest if your trying to be objective and be fair. You never seem to mention any other products that are in the same class or price range? Not trying to jump on ya, but it often appears fishy to me and others as well I'll bet.

AudioGaff,
I can understand your questioning my “chatting up” the Sebatron in view of all that you mentioned. I appreciate your being able to make this point without turning it into a personal attack on me or RO. Unlike others, you simply make the points without resorting to trolling tactics. This requires some intelligence and I respect that. I don't mind being contradicted or questioned but I won't stand for anyone being personally attacked on this forum. Those kinds of posts will be deleted, with no comment to dignify them.

But you have been around long enough to remember that I did the review and began recommending Sebatron gear quite a while before RO accepted the banner ads from them and before Chris became a dealer for Sebatron in Canada. Sebatron pays the same rate as all other manufacturers do for his banner ads. Chris , as a dealer for Sebatron and as the owner of RO places the banners for Sebatron Canada. Seeing as he owns the forum, I think he's entitled to do this. I get nothing for suggesting Sebatron or any other companies gear. I have absolutly no finacial ties to Sebatron or any other manufacturer. I am a completly unbiased reviewer with no ties to any company. I don't write review for crap gear but that is as far as my bias plays into the equation. If anyone can prove otherwise, now is the time to step up to the plate.

The reason I don't mention anything else in the price range of the Sebatron is there is nothing at the same price point I know of that sounds as good. Can you suggest anything that is $1750 or $437 per channel, that is as flexible as the Sebatron? I haven't seen anything in that price range that is worth mentioning. The only thing I can think of is used APIs that I have seen go for around $500. But then you still have to get the lunchbox.

I think if you had a chance to hear a Sebatron, you would be talking it up too..

I am hard core when it comes to front end. I think there is no substitute for it. The Sebatron represents a best value in this department.

[ October 22, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Cool this is a good thread. Well my "hookup" for the 2 610 fell thru, it'll be more like 1500 which is still a good deal. I'm thinking now about the Brent Averills Dual Neve 1272 then getting the Averill Dual API at $1659 and $1449 respectivly it sounds pretty good. Also the Langevin Dual Vocal w/EQ and Limiters for $1600 sounds pretty sweet too. Also there is the John Hardy M1 Dual for $1650, The Red 8, Vintech Dual 72 and of course the SEB JLM TMP8 AMEK and RNP. Oh then how about two Grace 101's for around a grand, man that sounds like a good way to go. Which of these would you pick to be your main dual pre. Then some months down the road pick up another flavor? CHOICES. :eek: Again I have NO experiance with pres and don't yet know what i like and dislike. My price range now is around $1500 but could go an eek more if I have to. Need something good all around. Eventually It'd be nice to have Neve, API and Tube sounds (I think).

Thanks Guys..........J

At $1900 (the price recently went up due to the difference between the US and Austrailian dollar) The JLM is a great choice for an all around pre.. It is not as well known as some of these other pres you brought up but I feel that will change in the future. You get eight channels and this pre is based on time honered op amp class A transformer input designs. I discribe the sound as somewhere between the Focusrite Red and an API, but the TMP8 absolutly has its own sound. It can be very clean and uncolored at lower gains but the cool thing about it is, the TMP8 comes from the factory with pre set limiters, set for your DAWs inputs. The harder you drive these limiters, the fatter and more Neve like, these limiters cause the the pre to sound.

Just about any of the pres you mentioned would be a fine addition and it would indeed be wonderful to have all of them in your arsenel. I personally don't "get it" as far as the 1272 thing goes. I have used the Avirills before and while they are not "rack crap" I didn't hear anything to write home about. I can't explaine this as these are supposedly basically the same thing as many other Neve pres I like quite a bit, but the ones I worked with were just real "ehhhhh". The RNP is a budget pre and IMO, by nature of it's design, power supply and construction methodology, does not fall into the same catagory as all these other pres you have mentioned.

Hey thanks Kurt. I emaild Joe at JLM a few days back and havnt heard from him. I with I could check one of these out. I just saw where you recommended a Dan Alexander Dual @ $1150 is pretty good. Have you used these guys? The review I read on them said they did great on Vox, bass, and drums. Perhaps I should walk away for a few days then come back and see what my gut tells me. $1000 buck or more is a lot of bones to drop, I want to make sure I get the best bang per buck. I wish I could find something used but only know to look on ebay. Don't see much there. Thanks guys.

Jason,
I was not able to get Dan to send me a unit to review, in spite of the fact that he knows well who I am and that he would get his gear returned. So I can't speak to the quality of his units. I also discovered that his pres are only 2 gain stage deveices with 60 dB of gain. While this is plenty , this approach is essentially the same as a 1272, which as I said previously, don't impress me. I also learned he is using a wall wart style power supply, which IMO is a compromise. Dan is a well known and respected person in the music scene in San Francisco but not being able to get a unit to review, I can no longer recommend his stuff.

Check out http://www.proaudiomarketplace.com. You have to subscribe for a year (12 issues) and a sub runs $25. There is used gear from all over the world in this tabloid publication. You can get it in hard copy or on line. This is the best source I have ever found for used pro gear. Happy hunting! (where have I heard that before??? :D )

Kurt, I don't doubt or dis-believe your motives or good intentions, I was just being a little shit-head sarcastic and making an obsrevation in general that it seems to me that the sebatron gets mentioned at almost every chance and others don't get mentioned at all? And while flexability is always a good thing, it is often not as important as other criteria. Gear like the Neve 1272 clones usually offer little to no flexability but are no less of great value. Now you know as well as I do that there are many choices in the >$1500

I've got my pet gear I always tout over anything else as well. Manley, API, Focusrite Red/Blue series, LA2A. I own three Eventide's and they are the best sounding, most inspiring, wild, versatile, flexable effects processor and DSP tools that I have ever encountered, a true swiss army analog/digital processor tool, yet my pain in the ass to use and edit Lexicon PCM91 that does reverb only, and cost me 1/2 of one of my Eventides, is much better at reverb so it still holds great value as tool for me to use.

I guess my point is that flexability and features don't always mean that something has superior value over something else that does not have as many or a lot of flexability and features no matter what someone says or what the price difference is.

Originally posted by AudioGaff:
Now you know as well as I do that there are many choices in the >$1500

AudioGaff,
I think you are missing the point that at $1450, you get FOUR channels of valve pres with the Sebatron. In view of the fact a lot of people here seem to be interested in "affordable" gear, this is what I lean towards. IMO it is the best recommendation I can make for those who are concerned with price point. If the Sebatron were only a two channel unit, your point would be more appropriate. I would be interested in hearing what you would suggest at less than $450 per channel?
I really don't know of any other "possible choice".

I would like to hear from someone who has used the Focusrite 428 Pre Pack. I'm thinking that these may be close in sound to the red series. If so this might be a great recommendation as they're not too colored and would work well as an everyday pre you could use to stack on a lot of tracks without getting too muddy.

Originally posted by John Grimm (Vintage Studios):
I would like to hear from someone who has used the Focusrite 428 Pre Pack. I'm thinking that these may be close in sound to the Red series.

Yes, this supposed to be the case. I think the 428 pre pack is actually fairly affordable also? I think I recall it being something like $1950?

I think you are missing the point that at $1450, you get FOUR channels of valve pres with the Sebatron. ....I would be interested in hearing what you would suggest at less than $450 per channel?

No, I didn't really miss that. But I don't see where James inquired or was in need of a 4-channel mic pre, yet alone 4-channels of the same type. For a 4-channel mic-pre with high value, I would suggest the Sytek 4-channel (a Neotek inspired design) which I think is about $700. So that would make it less than $200 a channel. Well below the $450 mark. It may or may not be as good as the sebatron for James, but it is far less money and still offers great value.

The Focusrite Red came from the original ISA design by Rupert Neve, The Red is a modified version of the original design and the newer ISA including the strips 220, 430 as well as the 428, are repackaged Red design with most likely updated components, features and without the bitchin looking red front panel.

Hey Audiogaf, actually the red 8 is something I have been looking at. I've been told that it might color the sound too much if I use it on a lot of channels. I think I'll have around 3K to spend on 2 dual channel pres (2 differnt colors). OR half for a dual pre and the rest on more mics. I'm not sure but I think I'd want the NEVE sound for two channels then two clean and eventually a tube pre. I base this solely on the fact that my main session drummer reads that some session guys like Neve for kick/snare and clean pres for overheads. Of course everyones different.
Hey Kurt, can the Seb get pretty clean and uncolored? Then color it up at will? What would you comnpare its clean to, Grace? What about its color how does it compare to a 2-610 etc. I wonder if SEB will let me pick one up then return it if I'm not diggin. Hmmmm.. What are the good/decent Neve pre only clones out there? Still confused but slowly getting there. I think the GC Pro guy is bringing down a rack of toys to play with in a few days, that should help.

Oh...he recommended the Grace 201. I can get two Grace 101's for around $800 less. Arn't they pretty much the same? CYA

Jason,
What would you be interested in hearing a sample of to make the judgment call yourself? I will record a track of something through a Millennia HV3D for a "clean" reference and then through the Sebatron at different gains and with the pads so you can hear for yourself what I am talkin''bout Willis!

Acoustic or electric guitar, vocal or bass is the easiest for me as these are what I do.

Hey Kurt one more question. Actually same question as the SEB but to the TMP 8. Is it clean then dirties up in a nice way as its pushed? Its compared to Red and API but what do your ears compare it to? I could probably swing one of these but it would be my only pre for a long, long time. I do mostly rock and country and only have the A&H as other pres. Whats your ideas? Thanks.

The 101 and the 201 are similar, with a few differences. The 101 has a DI, which the 201 doesn't. The 101 also has a wall-wart, which the 201 doesn't. The 201 has specs that are astounding (compared to those of the 101, which are merely "very good"), but how much the average person will be able to hear the difference is open to debate. If you don't mind the wall-warts (and if you can use the DI's and the cash savings) I'd probably say go with the pair of 101's. Or even better, just buy one 101 and start saving for something else with some color.

My suggestion in general, (based on the fact you live in Austin which has a huge music scene,) is to find a good pro dealer who will let you try out two or three preamp choices in your studio for a week - with the intention of your buying one and returning the others.

You can add in some of these other brands that Kurt is mentioning which may only be available by mail-order. You'll have to negotiate a trial period with the company rep with the idea that you will be able to return it for full refund if it doesn't win the shoot-out with the locally available brands.

Hey Audiogaf, actually the red 8 is something I have been looking at. I've been told that it might color the sound too much if I use it on a lot of channels. I think I'll have around 3K to spend on 2 dual channel pres (2 differnt colors). OR half for a dual pre and the rest on more mics. I'm not sure but I think I'd want the NEVE sound for two channels then two clean and eventually a tube pre. I base this solely on the fact that my main session drummer reads that some session guys like Neve for kick/snare and clean pres for overheads. Of course everyones different.

Well first, the Foucsrite Red/ISA sound is not the same Neve sound most people rave about when they tout the Neve name. The Focusrite while still colored, is a general multipurpose mic pre. In fact the Red series was one of the very first outboard only mic pre available on the market. It was and has been used on everything that a mic ever gets used for.

Second, The classic Neve sound is really made up of few different types that some prefer over the other types for use on certain sources. There is the first generation all Class-A modules and the second generation Class-A/B modules. The 1272 which was a bus summing and talkback mic amp, was never a real Neve mic-pre product, but it does have about 2/3 of the same boards and componenets as a Neve 1073 module which is all class-A. What I call the third generation is the broadcast series which consists of some Class-A/B, some IC and some hybrid of up to all three.

Some have noted that when using any Neve sound for all tracks that there is often a build up of mid freq. or muddiness/smearing with the Class-A units having more of this. These are usually also some damn fickle and nit-picky people who seem to say this. I've never had more than a half dozen tracks with all Neve mic pre's of any type so I don't know if that is a valid problem or not. I can say that having all the same type of pre can be a very good thing and be just the right kind of gell or gule that many are looking for and trying to obtain. By using many different types of mics and mic pre's you can find that at the end of a mix many may notice something is really missing and then they go to try and get that same gell/glue effect that they purposely choose not to do in the first place by using more of the same. I like to have the same type of tones when working with a sub bus like on drums or guitars and background vocals. Many try to get the gell and glue by using a compressor and/or eq on the sub bus and/or mix bus and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but more often than not by doing that, you have other artifacts to deal with and this changes other things as well as the overall dynamics that you may not want to change. So these just a few more things to digest in making your decision.

I would suggest that you skip the Grace, not because it is not good, but as I think that you will likely not hear a tremenous improvement over what you have and it will not offer enough variety in tone that you appear to be after.

i tried the Sebatron against the 2610 ,Drs 2 Phoenix and DAV audio mic pre
The 2610 was really nice very coloured and fat,i actually liked it on acoustic guitar but it,s so much to do with what kind of sound youre looking for ,i dont like acoustics to sound too crystal clear,i was a bit dissapointed in the Phoenix actually although it stacked up well the actual sound for me was a bit matallic is the only way to describe it.i bought the sebatron partly from cost but mainly cos it sounded big and beautiful on my vocals with an oktava mkl2500 .i would have bought the 2610 as well but not possible,i,m using the sebatron to track a whole project very happy with it .No rules you Must try these things .The DAV pre sounds fantastic for the price in the uk 400 pounds clean and prescency.
made by ex Decca engineer.
Kurt please tell me what you think the seb would sound like with a u47? thinking of hiring one

Hey guys, your like a nice tube pre....Class A. Thanks so much for the insight Audiogaff and thanks so much for the tempting offer Kurt. I'd love to hear the Seb in its paces and the JLM. I'd kinda like to hear a tid bit of the Neve you have too. As far as source.........hmmmm. Vox, Bass, Drums, Elec, Ac, Penny Whistly, Kazoo (with wah wah pedal) Trash can lids, Glasses with H20 and a spoon. No, no. just kidding, I suppose AC, bass and possibly a vox. If you have time and want to do it, whatever you could do would be great. Perhaps you have a few recordings already that you could pop on a cd that has different pres on different instruments. Thanks again guys. You Rock (and record it while doing so) :D

Thanks Jason

If I was buying my first single channel pre I would go for a Great River ME-1NV.

hi Jason
i have a couple of Seb pres - one is currently on loan to a good friend in Austin - he may let you have a listen.
If you are interested, drop me an email with a phone number and i'll have him give you a call.
I also have a Dan Alexander, Grace 101, and some other interesting pres - i'd be happy to chat about them too.

Dan

Originally posted by julian lamp:

Kurt please tell me what you think the seb would sound like with a u47? thinking of hiring one

Julian,
I can't say as I haven't had the chance to do this yet. I would think it may be a bit much. But you never know. let us know the results if you try it. K.

Originally posted by Jason James:
.... Thanks so much for the tempting offer Kurt. I'd love to hear the Seb in its paces and the JLM. I'd kinda like to hear a tid bit of the Neve you have too. As far as source.........hmmmm. .... I suppose AC, bass and possibly a vox. If you have time and want to do it, whatever you could do would be great. Perhaps you have a few recordings already that you could pop on a cd that has different pres on different instruments. Thanks again guys. You Rock (and record it while doing so) :D
Thanks Jason

Jason,
(Dead Link Removed)

Originally posted by dan mcguinness:
hi Jason
i have a couple of Seb pres - one is currently on loan to a good friend in Austin - he may let you have a listen.
Dan

This is so indicative of the passion people are displaying once they have had the chance to hear the Sebatron vmp series of pres. They are willing to loan them out and they want everyone to hear them. This is how wonderful this design is. IMO, it is a revolution in pre amp design, destined to become a classic.

Kewl, thanks guys,
Hey Dan I'll PM you in a sec, sounds like a good plan.
I'll have to hear the SEB of course but I think I made a deal to get a Great River NV 2 channel, an RNP and another TLM 103 ( TLM so I'll have 2 for stereo recording, drums,ac gtr etc). Supposedly the Great River is awesome and can sound clean or Neve colored. I've never heard anyone say anthing negative about it. It would be my main pre then the RNP would be for overheads and just a different sound. If I dig the Seb I might be able to scrape another $500 and get it instead of the RNP but I'm not sure if this will work. The above is kinda a package price. I do want a tube pre in a bad way and the Seb is definitly well spoke of. Hopefully I'll get to hear one this week and check it out. I'll let you know what I think of it. As far as the GR, RNP and TLM does this sound like a winning combo? Thanks guys,

Jason