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Best reverb for classical music?

Reverb seems to be the thing I lack the most of.
digi verb is a POS, and space designer only runs on logic.

I want something that sounds very natural. To give recordings less dead space when the musicians pause.
I really don't want to spend over a grand on this.

Are lexicons and TCs any good at that price range?
I know the Reibe is a grand, and like using it when I get the chance. So that is an option. Also I may be buying the renaissances plug in pack, which comes with a decent verb. But i rarely use it, as I have revibe and a TC 6000 to work with as well (when I am at school).

I know every one has there own opinions, but I would just like to hear what people use for their classical mixes.

Comments

Member for

15 years 8 months

aracu Wed, 02/13/2008 - 04:27

I certainly agree with you about the theory of convolution reverb, although
in practice I've found it subjectively to work well as long as the reverb effect is kept to an absolute minimum, unless the original recording already has a fairly noticable background of reverb, otherwise it starts to sound quite unnatural in a destracting way. I haven't heard the Sony either so I can't comment on it. It's been said that the software reverbs are limited in sound quality due to the limitations of a computer's dsp, and have to make comprimises in the overall reproduction of the original dry sound. I don't know if that is true or not. As I understand it the Bricasti is a completely synthetic reverb, modeled by the designers to sound like real spaces and improved versions of studio reverbs, not exactly what one would expect to sound "natural". It could be criticized as sounding too "perfect" (like an idealized version of a real space). If we had great sounding spaces easily available to record in with lots of time to set up microphones, there would not be such a need for electronic reverbs for enhancing acoustic music. They would be more necessary in the production of electronic, electro-acoustic and midi based music.

Member for

16 years 5 months

Simmosonic Wed, 02/13/2008 - 05:04

DavidSpearritt wrote: Its only limited by the quality of the impulses, many of which are still not well aquired.

I think this is the biggest problem. What is required to make a good impulse? I'd imagine you'd need a sound source that could excite all frequencies equally (20Hz to 20kHz) and evenly (i.e. ominidirectional radiation pattern).

Then there's the question of whereabouts to place the impulse source in the room, and where to place the microphones. Speaking of which, what technique do you use to capture the room's response? Mono, coincident stereo, near-coincident stereo, spaced omnis, etc.

So many challenges to overcome...

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15 years 7 months
Profile picture for user hueseph

hueseph Wed, 02/13/2008 - 08:27

Simmosonic wrote: I'd imagine you'd need a sound source that could excite all frequencies equally (20Hz to 20kHz) and evenly

I don't think you will find any impulse that would affect all frequencies equally. The same as the room you want to capture will likely not affect all frequencies equally. Just a stupid point. Yes, I'm nitpicking.

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51 years 5 months

hughesmr Wed, 02/13/2008 - 11:17

I'm thinking about getting SIR v1 (the freebie) to test out as a VST plugin in Wavelab for some post work. Of course, the issue of good impulses comes up as mentioned above.

Can anyone provide sources for GOOD usable impulse responses for classical music for use with SIR1? I don't need crap like "toilet bowl" or "cave" ... more like concet halls and churches of various characters. Any help would be appreciated!

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17 years 3 months
Profile picture for user Cucco

Cucco Wed, 02/13/2008 - 12:42

They also have great links to impulses of classic units such as Lexicon 960s and Quantec boxes. Most of which are quite true to the original (since, after all, they are impulses of the actual devices).

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16 years 5 months

DavidSpearritt Wed, 02/13/2008 - 12:54

Cucco wrote: They also have great links to impulses of classic units such as Lexicon 960s and Quantec boxes. Most of which are quite true to the original (since, after all, they are impulses of the actual devices).

Yes, but I have never understood this. What's the point of reproducing a synthetic reverb or another silly box when the problem is, it never sounds like a real hall. Why not just use a real hall, ie a real impulse.

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17 years 3 months
Profile picture for user Cucco

Cucco Wed, 02/13/2008 - 13:00

Ah...I guess I should have explained -
I don't just use it to simulate halls. For certain vocalists, I like some of the 960 reverbs. For outdoor marching bands, the Quantec rocks. For certain jazz ensembles (particularly big band) the TC VSS3 reverbs rock. This way I can use impulses of these boxes and not have to pay to rent them or buy them.

Although, if the Bricasti is as nice as everyone claims, I'll likely be keeping/buying my review sample.

Member for

16 years 5 months

DavidSpearritt Wed, 02/13/2008 - 13:01

Simmosonic wrote: [quote=DavidSpearritt]Its only limited by the quality of the impulses, many of which are still not well aquired.

I think this is the biggest problem. What is required to make a good impulse? I'd imagine you'd need a sound source that could excite all frequencies equally (20Hz to 20kHz) and evenly (i.e. ominidirectional radiation pattern).

Then there's the question of whereabouts to place the impulse source in the room, and where to place the microphones. Speaking of which, what technique do you use to capture the room's response? Mono, coincident stereo, near-coincident stereo, spaced omnis, etc.

So many challenges to overcome...

The measurement process is extremely important and quite complex. While a spark or balloon burst or gunshot has a flat frequency emission, there's not enough energy there to excite the hall properly, so generally a swept sine is the way to go. I reckon the sound source should go where the musicians are and the measurement mics should go where you would stick a couple of omnis for a main pair.

The measurement mics should be omnis because you want flat pickup and you want the return from the hall, ie behind the mics, but it would also be interesting to have Blumlein and ORTF measurements as well. After all you are trying to reproduce what happens at the mics during a real recording.

My acoustical mate James Heddle and I are still planning to go into the Con Theatre and measure it carefully and properly at 44/24 and 96/24 with a variety of mic techniques. James is working on a fantastic point source speaker system to radiate big SPL's in as close to point source as possible, so its still going to be awhile yet.

In the meatime I will probably buy SIR2 and some of those Penguine impulses and also continue to use the new TC box. Bricasti looks like a wonderful bit of gear, but the budget doesn't extend that far at the moment.

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15 years 8 months

aracu Wed, 02/13/2008 - 14:06

My favorite SIR reverb free impulse download from the internet is
from noisevault.com and it's called Unfinished Chapal. The 3 versions
were made from a chapal without all the furniture installed in it yet
or something like that. It holds up well to relatively expensive software reverbs like Waves Ir and Altiverb.
A really nice Waves Ir impulse for classical or flamenco guitar is
Nekarot Cavern, taken from a very low cieling cavern in Jerusalem,
I think.
The impulses made from hardware reverbs tend to sound pretty bad if not unusable.

Member for

16 years 5 months

Simmosonic Wed, 02/13/2008 - 20:41

DavidSpearritt wrote: I reckon the sound source should go where the musicians are and the measurement mics should go where you would stick a couple of omnis for a main pair.

That makes sense, of course...

DavidSpearritt wrote: The measurement mics should be omnis because you want flat pickup and you want the return from the hall, ie behind the mics, but it would also be interesting to have Blumlein and ORTF measurements as well. After all you are trying to reproduce what happens at the mics during a real recording.

Right! I think anyone serious about making impulses would be using a number of different stereo miking techniques at the same time. I have some for SIR, can't remember what they are now, that offer two or three different mic techniques. Each sounds a bit different...

Then again, would the differences between the capture techniques be of any true relevant after going through the convolution process?

DavidSpearritt wrote: My acoustical mate James Heddle and I are still planning to go into the Con Theatre and measure it carefully and properly at 44/24 and 96/24 with a variety of mic techniques. James is working on a fantastic point source speaker system to radiate big SPL's in as close to point source as possible, so its still going to be awhile yet.

This sounds fantastic. With all of those things in place, you'll be halfway there (IMHO)...

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17 years 3 months
Profile picture for user Cucco

Cucco Thu, 02/14/2008 - 09:39

aracu wrote:
The impulses made from hardware reverbs tend to sound pretty bad if not unusable.

It depends what you use them for.

For orchestra- yes, they're not usable. But then again, I've found very few boxes that were good for this in the first place.

For pop/rock vocals, they're quite good.

Otherwise, I'll agree, for orchestra - good samples reign supreme.

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14 years 11 months
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rfreez Thu, 02/14/2008 - 22:17

whats the easiest/most efficient way to generate the "impulse"? hopefully something that can be carried around in my pocket... definitely not something that looks like a gun, which will get me into trouble with security personnel everywhere...

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16 years 5 months

DavidSpearritt Fri, 02/15/2008 - 03:54

There's nothing you can carry in your pocket that will excite a room (concert hall) with enough energy. Even a loud gun is not likely to do it. If you want the response of the room to a symphony orchestra, you have to get somewhere near the energy production. Even though the system is supposedly linear with amplitude. Its all to do with having enough S/N in the measurement of the response.

A powerful multi driver loudspeaker point source capable of 120dBA is a good start. Add a decent signal generator and many mics and a multitrack recorder and you have some chance.

This is why there are not too many decent impulses out there and why companies like Altiverb protect their measurement results (their only real IP by the way) with great enthusiasm.

http://www.audioease.com/IR/

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15 years 8 months

aracu Fri, 02/15/2008 - 20:41

"I couldn't find that there, but I found an unfinished chapel IR here:

http://www.impulseresponse.org/real_rooms.htm

It's under the heading "Huge Unfinished Chapel". Is that the one?"

Hi Keith, it's probably the same one, it has the same name and number
of files, but it's a different site so I'm not sure. I found it on noisevault.com
on the second page of the real spaces category, and the full name is the
same Huge Unfinished Chapel.

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17 years 3 months
Profile picture for user Cucco

Cucco Mon, 02/25/2008 - 05:13

David -

I've been playing around with the Fabrik R and the preset you sent me (thanks by the way!) and have really started getting some sounds that I like, but for some reason, when I bounce or mix down the file, all I get is some random repetetive noise instead of the music+reverb. Did you experience this? If so, how do/did you combat it?

Thanks!
Jeremy

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16 years 5 months

DavidSpearritt Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:13

Jeremy, I cannot speak for your situation, but I am using the Fabrik R inside the SK48 host. It works flawlessly inside the box in "internal" mode, but is glitchy in "plugin" mode due to a driver error which TC know about. They are about to release a fix.

What are you hosting the Fabrik R inside?

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17 years 3 months
Profile picture for user Cucco

Cucco Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:20

A TC Konnekt 24D.

I got it to be the "in the studio" interface so that I didn't have to keep unracking and re-racking the Fireface.

Mine also works flawlessly in internal mode but I'd hate to do a full playback for a reverb. Although, if I went with any other hardware reverb, I'd have to do the same.

I'll just bite the bullet and let it do its thing.

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