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Looking for a low end check please

Member for

9 years
Rough mix; still needs a guitar solo and a re-track of the LV cuz yeah, I know, it's a bit pitchy.
But, before I go any further with it...

I need a low-end check on this.
IGTS SAMP FOR RO FEB 19 2017.mp3

I've recently set up in a spare room, and I don't think I can trust it. I haven't treated it in any way yet, I wanted to get an idea of how mixes translated first.
Honestly, I'm not even sure it can be treated. I hesitate to even waste Brien's time on it ( @Brien Holcombe )...
But, I'd like to see where I am on the low frequencies.

As usual, any comments, thoughts, suggestions welcome.

Thanks. :)

https://recording.o…
Attached files IGTS SAMP FOR RO FEB 19 2017.mp3 (7.5 MB) 

Comments

Member for

21 years 3 months

audiokid Sun, 02/19/2017 - 09:30
As always, I love your style and musicianship. (y) Very nice.

I can't really get my head in the bass because the song is full of phase shifting and pumping. Its way to premature to even be concerned with the bass freq right now. Get the balances and mix up front, drop all the compression and start over. That's my advice.

The pumping starts immediately after the 33sec mark. Before that, its not as aggressive, the beginning sounds more natural in comparison to the rest of the song.

Its sounds like there is a lot of sidechain or multi compression in all instruments?
I'm wondering why this is happening because I've heard this effect in a few other tracks of yours, but you eventually sort that out. I can't help but feel for you because it can't be fun at the final mixing.

To avoid me from going crazy, this is how I try and avoid what I am hearing in this mix.
(What works for one guy, doesn't always work for the next so... )

(Shop talk edited a few times):
Generally speaking, I avoid processing all mic tracks until its mixing time". I am big on waiting to mix or process all vocals and instruments "I plan on keeping" until its mixing time. Otherwise, start over and redo everything you can, start to finish and then mix it.

I believe processing microphone tracks while still recording and building a song (especially if it includes VSTi) creates a pieced together sound full of sonic problems that are often not even a problem when it comes to mixing.
When we are adjusting vocals to a mix that is being created and processed over a example week, what we hear in our head is far from accurate to the translating mix. You will likely shrink and screw up the freq's to tracks that don't even need an EQ or at least eqing where we are eqing and compressing.

As far as bass, the bass is a bit shy, but there. Nothing is jumping out. It all sounds pretty smooth so I think I wouldn't worry about that right now. I would sort out whats creating the phase and pumping.

I think your overall balance and mix perspective is at a good starting point. When you get the pumping effect sorting, I think you'll have an excellent song, Donny.

Member for

21 years 3 months

audiokid Sun, 02/19/2017 - 11:32
As always, I love your style and musicianship. (y) Very nice.

Shop Talk :) With much kindness and respect.

I can't really get my head in the bass because the song is full of phase shifting and pumping. Its way to premature to be concerned with the bass freq right now. Get the balances and mix up front, drop all the compression and processing and start over. That's my advice.

The pumping starts immediately after the 33sec mark. Before that, its not as aggressive, the beginning sounds more natural in comparison to the rest of the song.

Its sounds like there is a lot of sidechain or multi compression in all instruments?
I'm wondering why this is happening because I've heard this effect in a few other tracks of yours, but you eventually sort that out. I can't help but feel for you because it can't be fun at the final mixing.

To avoid me from going crazy, this is how I try and avoid what I am hearing in this mix.
(What works for one guy, doesn't always work for the next so... )

Generally speaking, I avoid processing all mic tracks until its mixing time". I am big on waiting to mix or process all vocals and instruments "I plan on keeping" until its mixing time. Otherwise, start over and redo everything you can, start to finish and then mix it.

I believe processing microphone tracks while still recording and building a song (especially if it includes VSTi) creates a pieced together sound full of sonic problems that are often not even a problem when it comes to mixing.
When we are adjusting vocals to a mix that is being created and processed over a example week, what we hear in our head is far from accurate to the translating mix. You will likely shrink and screw up the freq's to tracks that don't even need an EQ or at least eqing where we are eqing and compressing.

As far as bass, the bass is a bit shy, but there. Nothing in regards to standing waves or bass humps are jumping out. Your freq balance sounds pretty smooth so I think I wouldn't worry about the bass right now. I would sort out whats creating the phase, pumping and whatever is keeping you from hearing the extreme drops in volumes. Hopefully my critique helps.

When you get the pumping effect sorting, I think you'll have an excellent song, Donny.

Member for

9 years

DonnyThompson Mon, 02/20/2017 - 03:32
audiokid, post: 447622, member: 1 wrote: As far as bass, the bass is a bit shy, but there. Nothing in regards to standing waves or bass humps are jumping out.

I'm not hearing the phase issues on this that you are, Chris... I'm not saying they're not there, this is exactly why I wanted other people to critique it, and you were one of the biggies because I know you have a very well-balanced space and monitor system.. what I'm saying is that I'm not hearing what you are, neither through speakers or phones... which is either a reflection on my ability to hear and mix, or, the room I'm in is so badly skewed that I'd be better off using pro grade headphones.

FWIW, there is a phase effect on some of the backing vocals, this was intentional... is this maybe part of what you are picking up on? Or you're saying the mix is out of phase? I checked the mix with a phase correlation meter, and it's wider than usual because of the M-S acoustic guitar, but it's still within acceptable range. Summing to mono isn't making anything totally disappear...

bouldersound, post: 447626, member: 38959 wrote: Hm, I'm hearing the low end of the bass stepping on the mix. The bass has a big bump centered on 60Hz and it has no definition. Maybe compression/limiting on the master bus is conflicting with that LF and causing the mentioned pumping.
So you are hearing the pumping, too? I have to admit, I'm not... is it a compression-type pumping?

The increased low end... you are hearing it, Chris is not. I think my problem is the room I'm in - the bass sounds balanced and defined through my system. Of course, that means absolutely zip if it's not translating well to other pro systems. LOL

I'd thought of running a mix with cans - man, I hate to mix that way, but would be willing to try - but I'm not sure I'd be any better off, maybe even worse, as the headphones I have are only cue-grade AKG's ( 241's), and IMO, sufficient only for tracking.

I think I'm gonna have to find another space to work in, or, invest in a pair of mega-uber-sell-a-kidney-to-afford-headphones. :-(

Member for

11 years 9 months

PJH Mon, 02/20/2017 - 04:40
I've listened to it in my studio a few times now and I have to agree with the sentiment. I think that the bottom end is overpowering your mix, Donny. It's also sucking out the clarity on the other instruments and voices. I would tame the bass and you should hear the other tracks come alive. I'm not sure if it's a frequency thing or it's just too loud.

Very nice song BTW.

Cheers,

Peter.

Member for

9 years

DonnyThompson Mon, 02/20/2017 - 06:29
Okay...
So I did a headphone mix ( AKG K240 M's, Austria), and I tamed the bass back in both frequency and in volume. I shelved the low end that Boulder (@bouldersound ) mentioned there being a big 60Hz hump in the first mix I posted, so I tamed that back, and also brought down the volume by -2db.
(BTW, the mix sounds completely different in the cans than it does in the room).
I used a commercial mix ( In The House Of Stone And Light, Martin Paige) as a mix reference on this for low end and kick and bass relationship, in both volume and tone, because that's the type of mix I am shooting for.

Here's the most current mix:

I'LL GO TO SLEEP NEW BASS EQ FEB 20 2017.mp3

[MEDIA=audio]https://recording.o…
Attached files I'LL GO TO SLEEP NEW BASS EQ FEB 20 2017.mp3 (7.7 MB) 

Member for

9 years

DonnyThompson Mon, 02/20/2017 - 06:34
wow... just listened through my nearfields... the vocal sounds way hot, especially at the end... I'm gonna have to do some volume envelope work on that - I hate to hit it with the amount of compression it would need to tame it...

Man, I SUCK at this. Holy Crap... when did I become a hack?
I wonder if Walmart needs greeters...

Member for

11 years 10 months

bouldersound Mon, 02/20/2017 - 08:04
DonnyThompson, post: 447635, member: 46114 wrote: wow... just listened through my nearfields... the vocal sounds way hot...


That's normal. The lack of cross bleed tends to de-emphasize centered tracks so one tends to mix them hot relative to panned tracks. If I have to mix on headphones I like to do it with the mono button on.

Member for

21 years 3 months

audiokid Mon, 02/20/2017 - 08:37
At this time in the mix... I would prefer to hear this with just you and the guitar (decluttered). Get that right and it will not only improve all things that matter but it will also evolve this discussion into what I think will be a very inspiring and informative discussion that could quite possibly launch us towards something very positive.

In fact, I think we should start suggesting more acoustic work (or just the bed tracks) and make that a trend for RO.
Again, get the basics right and everything improves.

There are collaboration opportunities that could go way beyond this as well.

Member for

11 years 10 months

bouldersound Mon, 02/20/2017 - 09:27
audiokid, post: 447638, member: 1 wrote: There are collaboration opportunities that could go way beyond this as well.

This thread got me thinking about that. How about a mix sharing sub forum? I propose using Reaper as a common DAW so mix projects could be shared in their entirety, right down to the tiniest detail. Instead of all this talk about "what I do is..." you could see exactly what was done and hear the results.

Member for

9 years

DonnyThompson Mon, 02/20/2017 - 09:54
audiokid, post: 447638, member: 1 wrote: At this time in the mix... I would prefer to hear this with just you and the guitar (decluttered). Get that right and it will not only improve all things that matter but it will also evolve this discussion into what I think will be a very inspiring and informative discussion that could quite possibly launch us towards something very positive.

In fact, I think we should start suggesting more acoustic work (or just the bed tracks) and make that a trend for RO.
Again, get the basics right and everything improves.

There are collaboration opportunities that could go way beyond this as well.
I have no problems doing that... and if you think it might help the forum, then I'm even more for it....
But I'm gonna need to get a better LV track first before you guys really dig in. This vocal take is pitchy - which is one of those things that just happens to drive me crazy, especially when it comes to my own performances, and, I've heard a bit of clipping on one word, I must have hit it harder than the others. It's not a post-gain thing, it was apparently tracked that way.

But, at least for now...

well, I was gonna upload a guitar and vocal mix, but I got an error message saying "security error occurred, please refresh and try again", which I did, but still no dice, it's not letting me upload...

Member for

21 years 3 months

audiokid Mon, 02/20/2017 - 10:33
bouldersound, post: 447639, member: 38959 wrote: This thread got me thinking about that. How about a mix sharing sub forum? I propose using Reaper as a common DAW so mix projects could be shared in their entirety, right down to the tiniest detail. Instead of all this talk about "what I do is..." you could see exactly what was done and hear the results.
Good suggestions for Reaper.
I'm also suggesting this so we start hearing whats important in a mix, which I think, simply hearing a vocal and instrument in "as best we can do (for what we have) capture" would put a lot of guessing to rest.
How many times have we been told, if you want to get signed, keep it simple, do it well and that will go a lot farther than something that has all the production added after. As a producer, I don't always want to hear it all done as well.
Simple, truthful recordings will make us all stronger and the better recordists, mixers and masters.

Personally, I would like to hear recordings that are truthful composition consisting of a room mic, vocal mic and instrument. We should be able to make solid recommendations from excellent MP3 examples that could inspire all of us..

foreshadow

I am looking into sponsors so there could be some intensives if we actually get this rolling.
We would all benefit from this.

I also see this heading towards a global collaboration which at that point, would be open game to use whatever we like. But for starters, we need to get the bed tracks sonically solid and the core of RO on the same page . There is way too much distraction with production.
I think Donny's track would be the perfect start because he is confident, professional and very capable.

Member for

9 years

DonnyThompson Tue, 02/21/2017 - 03:06
audiokid, post: 447664, member: 1 wrote: can you try the upload again

I'LL GO TO SLEEP LV & AG ONLY FEB 21 2017.mp3

I also reduced the BR from 320 to 256; I had done that before I saw your post above.
I can try and upload a 320 again, but this 256 obviously worked.

-d.

[MEDIA=audio]https://recording.o…
Attached files I'LL GO TO SLEEP LV & AG ONLY FEB 21 2017.mp3 (6.1 MB) 

Member for

11 years 10 months

bouldersound Tue, 02/21/2017 - 17:54
DonnyThompson, post: 447635, member: 46114 wrote: wow... just listened through my nearfields... the vocal sounds way hot, especially at the end... I'm gonna have to do some volume envelope work on that - I hate to hit it with the amount of compression it would need to tame it...

Man, I SUCK at this. Holy Crap... when did I become a hack?
I wonder if Walmart needs greeters...

Actually, the vocal seems okay on my system. I like the basic tones and arrangement.

The one thing that stood out was that 60Hz peak. I've compared your mix to various sources on the same system: CD (Best of Steely Dan), FM, some stuff I'm working on. I think you've got a null in your mix position right on that frequency. I put a 12dB 2/3 octave notch there and it helped a lot. It's primarily in the bass, but also in the kick and perhaps toms.

A bit more examination shows me that there are two peaks, one at 60Hz and one at 100Hz. Cutting each by 7dB seemed to improve on my above eq setting. I suspect they're both room issues. Do you ever get up and walk the room while your mix is playing? I learn all sorts of stuff that way.

Member for

9 years

DonnyThompson Wed, 02/22/2017 - 03:00
bouldersound, post: 447688, member: 38959 wrote: I suspect they're both room issues. Do you ever get up and walk the room while your mix is playing? I learn all sorts of stuff that way.


@bouldersound :

First of all, I really appreciate you taking the time to do a frequency analysis on this.

There's no doubt that the room I'm in is a huge factor - I've noticed both hot spots and weak spots in various low end freq's. If I had to guesstimate I'd say you're right on the money with the two frequencies you mentioned.
I have no idea if bass trapping would even help with this or not (@Brien Holcombe ); to the degree where the room would eventually become ideal. Even if trapping made it a little better, that's still not enough - for me - I need an accurate environment. I can't be "guessing" or "getting it close enough".

As far as walking the room, yes, I have. I can move towards the door, which is behind me ( and the mix position) by about 13', and hear all kinds of low end - I'm guessing it's the door acting as a "trap" ( I don't know the Sabine value of an open door) ...but as I move closer to the position of the nearfields, the low end attenuates. It doesn't disappear, but it does attenuate - a lot. I have not yet taken an actual measurement on the amount of attenuation/boost.
At present, I've yet to find any actual full nulls.

Thanks again for taking the time. I really do appreciate it. ;)

-d.

Member for

11 years 10 months

bouldersound Wed, 02/22/2017 - 08:47
I've done a ton of mixing in challenging rooms. It's a pain but you can mix through it if you learn the room, find out what different positions in the room do. For example, in one control room I use there's a spot that reveals everything below 200Hz. That knowledge combined with standard listening levels lets me calibrate the lows better than just mixing from the chair. Then I check my mixes at home where the bass response is completely different (more accurate, actually) and references are just a click of the remote away. I would suggest putting on some commercially released recordings you like and walk the room. Find out what each different position of the room tells you about those mixes and apply it to yours.

I do think bass trapping will help tremendously. We just put a couple up in another control room I use, and it made a substantial difference. There was less of a difference between the sound there and the sound at home. I had to retrain myself to compensate less for the bass issues.

Member for

6 years 8 months

OBrien Wed, 02/22/2017 - 18:26
@DonnyThompson I don't know how I can help you. My strong suit is based on rooms that I know a lot about....and I don't here.

Open windows and or doors can help...obviously it comes with exterior intrusion but you have to weight that.

Mid and low frequency treatment seldom hurt. Mix position as you guys have discussed is important...and elevation in the structure can not be over stated...meaning the farther you get from the earth the more flanking can penetrate your environment....like a second story room.

But even a first story floor can present lf energy just not at the level of a floor 10 feet higher.

Let's pursue this...I want to help you.

Member for

9 years 1 month

Smashh Wed, 02/22/2017 - 20:10
Great song Donny !
Im listening to 20 feb mix on my ear buds and the bass is still masking the detail in other tracks .
Vocals sound perfect to me ,( good character ) not pitchy , they are well within allowances in my hearing.
Once you put your ambience on the vocals it ll sound sweet ( assuming your gonna do that ).
One more off topic , have you got a tamborine there, i think you need to play the real thing there :)
look forward to hearing newer mixes of this (n)

Have you tried EarPods ?, they must be cheap as chips over there .
Push them right in your ear and the bass is great ( Im trying to learn to mix with them )...lol
x