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hi.. fairly new to mixing and mastering. Check out my mix and let me know what I can improve on. FYI, artist brought a YouTube beat to the session and didn't have wav files so it was a little hard for me to get all vox takes to sit in the mix so I fear it'll be either to loud or to soft compared to the beat. regardless let me know! Feedback is essential in my opinion. Thanks

http://recording.or…

Attached files

feel like I'm on.mp3 (5.4 MB) 

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Goodbreadmusic Wed, 09/28/2016 - 10:53

also...gear I used...akg p120, scarlett 2i2..waves vocal rider, waves limiter, api eq, cla-2a compressor, logics basic noise gate, JJP vocal channel strip, and running my mix through Izotope ozone 6. Again, any feed back is very appreciated. Went to audio engineering school a year ago and im just now being able to record mix and master my own sessions rather than being a runner! So im not new to terms or gear, more new to being in command of entire session front to back. Thanks again guys and gals.

DogsoverLava Wed, 09/28/2016 - 11:06

I would have liked to maybe have heard the electric piano be a bit louder, and as a producer I would have tried to sync its modulation/swells with the beginning of vocal phrases so it almost cued the vocals in some key areas for a bit more dramatic punch (and also so the music isn't just background to the vocal track). To be fair though I have very little experience listening to this style of track so I'm not sure what kind of mix expectations there are for the genre. The auto tuned vocal effects and the thin sounding electric rhythms seem very dated to me - when they come in they almost overwhelm the song and their prevalence through the mix just flatlines the energy of the track. What would you direct us to as a reference mix to help us better understand what you were going for here?

Goodbreadmusic Wed, 09/28/2016 - 11:24

Keep in mind the artist brought me a mp3 from a youtube beat...so I wasn't able to view all the instruments in the recording..i was only able to view the vocal tracks...so the beat was already a single file so I had to basically just add vocal tracks to the mp3 beat..which I know isn't a good way of doing it...but the artist could not obtain the wav files so I could see each instrument in the beat and mix accordingly..so I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get the vocals to "sit in" but rather they will be either on top or below the mp3 beat. As far as a reference mix..I probably could find one..but ive actually never referenced someone elses mix to mine other than putting up a ref track in OZONE 6 and ref mastering with other songs..but ive never done it with just the mix itself...probably a good idea and thing to do. I can provide a ref track later, currently at work so I would have to download something online and upload it, but cant do that at this moment in time. My main goal here was to just get a basic overall feed back for my mix keeping in mind that the instrumental itself as a solid MP3 file when I was tracking vox. Anyways thanks for the read

Goodbreadmusic Wed, 09/28/2016 - 13:22

That's correct. Everything in that recording that is not the vox tracks was brought to me in a single mp3 file, so they keys, bass, rhythm, and any other sound you hear was pre mixed into one single file..so I had to take that one single file with all the drums bass and etc... and had to try and mesh it with all the vox tracks my artist laid down. So in my session, it was one track that was all the beat and keys and drums into a single mp3..and then I had to go in and record the vocal tracks with that. I found it super hard to try and get the vocals to sit in with the rest of the "beat" ((including keys and everything besides vox)). It was either over or under the mp3 beat. So with that being said, I guess I wasn't looking for feedback on the instrumentation sound itself because I wasn't able to mix it or do anything with it really, besides adding a vintage exciter to it..but more getting feed back on just the vocal parts itself. How does the vocal tracks sound, etc..what im missing and all that good stuff. I wish I could add a photo of my session so you could see what I mean. One more time just to make sure theres an understanding....had one track with all the instruments summed into one single mp3 file...and then 8 or so vocal tracks, so I had to try and mix all the vocal tracks with one single mp3 file containing the instruments and rhythms, bass, keys, all that. I hope that helps clear up the misunderstanding. But you are correct..the artist ripped a ((beat)) from youtube and wrote his lyrics to said beat, and then came to my home studio to record all his vox.

DonnyThompson Sun, 10/09/2016 - 10:05

Goodbreadmusic, post: 441677, member: 50013 wrote: Check out my mix and let me know what I can improve on.

I'm not gonna critique the engineering on this, (I could, but don't feel that it's my place to do so, as this style of music is not my thing).

I will however, give a warning to listeners that there is "language" in this track that would be offensive to some people...

The "N" word, ( I absolutely LOATHE that word :mad: ) ... along with other words and phrases that might offend some of us, are prevalent.

I'm not gonna censor it though, because I'm just as offended by censorship as I am by the lyrics of this track. It's not my place to determine what "valid" art is. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that others won't.

So, I'm kicking this upstairs to Chris ( @audiokid ), who needs to make the final call on this one - RO is his site, his baby, and he needs to be the one to determine whether this track should stay in place where it is, or if it's a TOS violation.
He doesn't even need a reason. Chris pays for the site. He's the boss, and what he says goes... he doesn't always need to explain himself, although because he's such a cool guy, he usually does anyway, because he wants this site to run smoothly, and for its members to be happy being a part of it.

Goodbreadmusic, post: 441677, member: 50013 wrote: Feedback is essential in my opinion. Thanks

Regardless of language, the style of this track is really not RO's general vibe ...So you might find that you get more interest and valuable critique from other forums that focus more on this style.

-donny

Kurt Foster Sun, 10/09/2016 - 10:27

i don't lke that word either and i pretty much hate the whole genre'. the vocals are so auto tuned it sounds like slim whitman having a bad day. i just hate those drums pssts / thup / tic tic / pssts / thup / tic tick / . and the keys are so passe'. this stuff is what went wrong with the music biz. music made by no talents. no cigar and you're not going to Hollywood. (n)

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 10:28

Thanks for the kind words, Donny.

hmm, I'm in Canada and tend to think the majority of Canadians don't talk like this, nor listen to music that promotes hatred. Its what I understand as American inner city music that wannabee Canadians may think its cool if they are into it as well. For some odd reason, I have actually heard First Nations crank car stereos up with this blasting.They too are pissed off at what white people did to them. What the Catholic Church and our government did was terrible. And so it goes. The sins of our past are there for us to learn from, hopefully never to repeat.
Chapter closed and I do not spend my life looking for reasons to justify the bad of human nature. We are all burdened from the sins of our past and can either let that get us down (sing about it, wallow in the drama) or make us stronger as a race that pursues peace love and understanding, forgiving and be at peace with the cards we have been dealt with.

For the most part though, I feel I am accurate to say that the majority of Canadians don't listen to this genre, understand the whole shooting neighbors thing, raciest lifestyles, guns, all the hatred towards the black and whites but I do get it. I mean, half my family lives in California and I've had my share of being attacked more than once from gangs starting at the age of 12 years old.
Oakland California is a love hate memory to me. I used to visit my family during the summers from the late 60's on. My Dad had 6 locks on his door 40 years ago. I cannot imagine it now. :cautious:

Canada is open to the world (yikes!) as we wish the planet would simply stop trying to kill each other off. Wouldn't that be wonderful. I have little doubt this will ever happen.

Here is my "FeedbAck!

This song sounds like American hatred and the gangs I avoided as a kid. I have no idea if the N word is a cultural acceptance within the Black community now. Is it?
I've heard African Americans call each other that like a friend would refer : pal, buddy, bro, dude? I have no idea if we should remove this track or not.

I'm thrilled we have people submitting music though, and always hope we will be able to continue that. Do what you all think is appropriate. I'm clueless on this one.

DonnyThompson, post: 442011, member: 46114 wrote: I'm not gonna censor it though, because I'm just as offended by censorship as I am by the lyrics of this track. It's not my place to determine what "valid" art is. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that others won't.

Musicians are the messengers for the world. We should never take that for granted.

Kurt Foster, post: 442012, member: 7836 wrote: this stuff is what went wrong with the music biz. music made by no talents. no cigar and you're not going to Hollywood. (n)

Its definitely voicing the troubled times. I think it goes a lot deeper than this. I dislike most music like this.
The demise of big studios started and ended here. It simply took years to get to a point that we all could control what was recorded and published. The beginning of the end of big studios cashing in ended when computers could multi-track, empowering everyone to have a voice. The internet is the new beginning.

BS system, rich getting richer off the backs of hard working people that will never get a chance if things don't change. We are hostages to our computers. Jobs and opportunities sent overseas. One man can create a soundtrack. Everyone is looking for a free ride, cheap deals, so much hypocrisy and so on.
Humans screw each other, hide in the cracks waiting to pray on the innocent and that will never end. One day a hero, next day a zero. We're all in it together.

I'm hoping our jobs start coming back and the BS ends. I'll be watching the debate on CNN, and FOX tonight. There seems to be a lot of BS floating around lol.

:eek::D:whistle:

Sean G Sun, 10/09/2016 - 14:40

Can't say I'm a fan of this...if the music was ripped from youtube the first question I would ask is does the person have any right to use it?

I know if I uploaded a track I created to a site and somebody decided to download it and sing or rap over the top without my consent to use the track I would be pretty pissed about it, as it would amount to unauthorised use. In todays' world where their is an expectation that music should be free and where you can download just about everything you want at the click of a mouse, I don't think I would want to be part of producing something where I was creating a track for someone who didn't have the right to use the music.

Having said that, I don't think an Mp3 ripped from a site renound for its excessive compression would be the way to go either...but I also understand that you can only work with what a cleint brings you.

To me this genre always has a thin sound to it due to the use of samples and loops...usually backed by electronic drum machines. Like Kurt, I'm not a fan of the tst...tst...tst / thump loop sound...to my ears its why things sound thin and mechanical.

Again, I understand its how it was bought to you and its synonymous with this style & genre.

As for the over use of auto tune to suit the style of vocal most common with rap, again I'm no fan...its using this not as a corrective tool as it was initially designed but more for effect and makes the vocal sound robotic with a lack of human feel and a little lifeless.
I know this is used for effect with this style and genre but to me it is like cheese slices...it may look like cheese...it may smell like cheese...but is it really cheese?

But hey...whatever floats your boat.

As for the subject matter, this style of rap with its lyrical content I always have found to be negative and devisive...with a little hatred mixed in too...it lyrics are usually about brothers shooting either other brothers or white people or cops, or ganstas, their money or hoes....maybe thats a generalisation but thats how the genre sounds to me.

Can't say I'm a fan of that, but in a diverse world I know some are.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 15:03

Sean G, post: 442018, member: 49362 wrote: To me this genre always has a thin sound to it due to the use of samples and loops...usually backed by electronic drum machines. Like Kurt, I'm not a fan of the tst...tst...tst / thump loop sound...to my ears its why things sound thin and mechanical.

Its not a blanket reason at all. You can sample anything and loop it and if done right, the best engineers in the world could never tell the difference. That is a fact.
How do I know this?
Because a sample is the same as the recorded information. Meaning, if you sample a song that sounds awesome to you why would it sound any different than the original?

Programming drums is an art, just as it is to be a recordist or editing engineers. There are good ones and bad ones. It takes a special skill to do it real. And it also takes a skill to know when not to do that too. Also, not sounding real is some genre's goal too. Some people love the sound of the 808 and synth patches.

Unfortunately some who share this very closed in thinking don't know any better because they hear only the worst side of it and therefore draw an entire life opinion over the obvious bad shit, thus ending their career or ability to embrace technology that is absolutely awesome. They fall short because of sheer ignorance.

I'm not saying this to belittle or start a fight. I am saying this because I personally shared a track years ago to a very well known rock and roll engineer which was an idle of many people here. He produced a lot of 70's bands, some we all grew up listening to on the radio.:love:
He never new I was using an MPC 60 with snare , kick and hats (the library) I got (sampled myself) from his area. He called me and said he loved the drums. Guess what.... they were all samples and the entire drum program was programmed by me.

So, I do not like the OP music. I can't stand it but I cannot listen to comments that make blanket statements saying drum machines sound like tick tick tick. People reading these forums that know better, would only be thinking, are these guys lost.
Hope that doesn't start a war or come off as hurtful. I'm in no means trying to do that but I assure you all reading this, if you paid me for the time to make something sound real, I assure the majority of the public would never know the difference. Or would at the very least, ever say drum machines are thin sounding.
Samples are DAW's. DAW's are samplers lol. Samplers sound ten times as awesome as tape.

Q: does your DAW record better than a tape deck? If it doesn't, you need better converters.

Good drum machines that can sample (MPC) are dedicated sequencers with DAW capabilities. If something sounds thin it was either intentional or lack of ability to execute.

Sean G Sun, 10/09/2016 - 15:28

I did open my statement with To me...maybe I should have used the term IMO...I thought it pretty much meant the same thing.

My view is based on the samples I hear....especially in this genre, to which by the way I am no expert.

But...when the use of a high hat sample from a Roland drum machine like a TR-909 is used it gives it a thin mechanical sound...IMO.

I am not against the use of samples Chris, I think drum sampling can be hard to pick if done correctly...and samples used by programs such as SSD and BFD sound closer to the real thing in many ways. But you cannot seriously sit there and tell me the sound of a high hat from an 80's era drum machine like the one used in this track above does not sound like tick, tick, tick when compared to the use of a real high hat....

- that is what I was referring to when I said "To me this genre always has a thin sound due to its use of samples and loops...usually backed by electronic drum machines...."

IMO drum machines from the 80's and samples that recreate or emulate sound thin...if you compare them to a real acoustic drum sound as a reference point...maybe I should have added that last part to my original statement.

Your view did not offend me or come off hurtful at all, You are entitled to your own view, just as I am mine.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 15:43

Sean G, post: 442021, member: 49362 wrote: But you cannot seriously sit there and tell me the sound of a high hat from an 80's era drum machine like the one used in this track above does not sound like tick, tick, tick when compared to the use of a real high hat....

I cannot speak for the OP, but its most likely intentional with a lack of as well. No one is perfect and its also hard not being influenced to what the larger than life sound , in some songs adds. Meaning, I generally intentionally make kick drum a bit larger than life because I like it. So, I really have to hold back when a client is traditional. I wouldn't ever step into the 21 century kick.

Okay, have you ever used an MPC 60?
That being said... Again, a drum machine that can sample should be able to sample hihats that sound just like the era they came from. Lets take a track from

As if I couldn't use this hihat and put it through a song and it would get the job done. Maybe Ringo would say, hey, I play that a bit more open on bar "". but really, does the public care? We are our own worst enemy.
And as far as drums, the drums in here sound like total ass compared to today. Programming like this is so easy.

Lets move into the 80's now. Give me a song that you think has outstanding hats?

Sean G, post: 442021, member: 49362 wrote: Your view did not offend me or come off hurtful at all, You are entitled to your own view, just as I am mine.

same back. I've been at this long enough that when it comes to shop talk, you have to have an open mind and take no offense. Its all part of the creative world.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 15:53

Here is a classic rock song by the stones. Start Me Up. It doesn't get any "more real" than this.

If I can find a free spot in any song for that matter, where the snare, hat, kick is on its own, I could sample and use that in to sound exactly like the Stones snare etc. If the song I use is in the same tempo, even better. If I used a Bricasti to improve the entire acoustic space, even better.

Programming like this is a piece of cake. Straight forward Rock & Roll is the easiest programming to do. And there are literally thousands of songs that are just as easy to emulate or replace the drumming and it would not change how they were influencing. I can almost guarantee that the drummers aspiring to become a pro would also think, wow, is this drummer tight and do I ever love his sound.

Sean G Sun, 10/09/2016 - 15:57

I agree that the high hat sound used in many rap songs is very intentional and that 80's Roland drum machine sound is desired...I get that...its part of the sound that makes this genre what it is.

As for the MPC 60 I haven't played around with one of those since the 90's.

Many of the drum sounds used in music of the genre above are typical of the Roland 808 or TR-909 sounds...thats really what I meant in referring to electronic drum machines as opposed to more sophisticated samplers or sampling using a DAW / triggering.

Sean G Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:03

I can't watch the video above because my internet is as slow as a wet week today...maybe one of the hampsters that powers the wheel at my telco provider is off sick today or something...

Or maybe the plastic shopping bag and gaff tape they used to repair and waterproof the telcom wiring pit outside my house (yes...I'm serious, I watched it with my own eyes) has come loose again and allowed moisture to creep in somewhere...even loading pages is like dial-up speed at present.

Kurt Foster Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:04

audiokid, post: 442023, member: 1 wrote: f I can find a free spot in any song for that matter, where the snare, hat, kick is on its own, I could sample and use that in to sound exactly like the Stones snare etc. If the song I use is in the same tempo, even better. If I used a Bricasti to improve the entire acoustic space, even better.

but that's a single hit. real drums are not the same for every hit. imo it's a close but no. it's just not the same as a real player. it's a machine.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:06

Sean G, post: 442025, member: 49362 wrote: Many of the drum sounds used in music of the genre above are typical of the Roland 808 or TR-909 sounds...thats really what I meant in referring to electronic drum machines as opposed to more sophisticated samplers or sampling using a DAW / triggering.

I agree.

I think its important that we don't fall into that (OMG) are these guys dated here. I have years of experience in this area. I used to shut up when the original old school guys were the core of RO 1998 to 2002.

Some history, I got off the road after a very successful 18 years late 70's, 80's and 90's then started RO. We went viral; but the core of the members were not my bag at all. It was painful trying to discuss how drums sounded in tracks that I heard clearly as being programmed. I didn't dare comment because I knew it would throw the entire community into heart failure.
But I sure enjoyed learning about the vintage. Even to this day I am very careful how far I push this. I was reluctant to even discuss this now.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:15

Kurt Foster, post: 442027, member: 7836 wrote: but that's a single hit. real drums are not the same for every hit. imo it's a close but no. it's just not the same as a real player. it's a machine.

Nope. I can program bar by bar with everything loose and natural sounding. Even with slight quantization. It takes time but it can be done. I agree that there is a element that is unforgiving in certain areas, but at that point it becomes a business decisions. Do we piss off the drummer or make this better.
I would go so far to say that well programmed drums for most popular music (the kind of songs billboard charts are all about), will win in the end. Do we suck or sell millions.
I am not claiming this would fit for progressive music like Brand X, Santana, Jazz, etc. but anything that is straight forward RR, Tom Petty (I love Tom Petty) , ZZ top, even a lot of Blues, the list goes on, I could program the drums and without doubt, at least augment sections of drums in area's if not the entire track to sound better.

I'm also not saying we should or need to do that, but lets be clear, good drum programming does not sound tic tic.
(not directed at you Sean.)

Sean G Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:31

One of my favorite groups are Kraftwerk, I get electronic music.

Kraftwerk were the pioneers in the field, creating much of what electronic music is today. They invented their own drum sounds and created their own sampling when those things just didn't exist. They created their own drum machines and synths at their own studio Kling Klang in Dusseldorf...they created their own sound, which much of what we hear today is based around and were very much before their time.

Their influence on todays' electronic music and even rap is huge and their music is sampled a lot today by these genres. They created that electronic drum sound well before you could buy a machine off the shelf that could make that sound.

If you listen to albums like Trans Europe Express (1977) or even earlier albums like Autobahn (1974) you get an idea of how far ahead of the curve these guys were with electronic music and electropop.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:42

My first drum machine was a TR 909. It literally made me thousand of dollars and lunched my career. My next drum machine was the Linn Drum II. It too made me thousand more. I then moved to the the MPC and it put another decade of cash and introduced me to the beginning of what a DAW is today.
I have at least 20,000 hours into programming which has been an absolute blast. Had I not experienced this, RO would not exist. Nor would I had such a long career. So I do not hate digital audio. I just don't always like the songs and what it did when everyone found out about it. It pains me to see people going down butwe all have a choice in this.

Without sounding like some arrogant mouth piece then, I say this now because I am no longer trying to prove myself or make it in music. I am more interested in RO, building on the 2 DAW thing, and seeing the members here, grow. My kids careers are what matter now so I am now passing on the stuff I feel meant the most for me. One of the big things I tell them is to learn how to program. Listen to every part of music and figure out how to emulate it all. Listen to bands playing, listen to the sound of rooms, why do certain instruments work. I find it all so amazing.

Digital audio is the most incredible world to me. Its sad to see some of us fold because of business set backs but as far as what we can do today (individually) to get our message out, wow.
I can only imagine what is coming next.

Being able to use spectral technology to manipulate acoustic space is what I am hoping for next. I hope I live long enough to be able to remove all the acoustic space from a recording and use my own. That is what I am living for. When that day comes, I will be in my glory.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 16:46

Sean G, post: 442030, member: 49362 wrote: One of my favorite groups are Kraftwerk, I get electronic music.

Kraftwerk were the pioneers in the field, creating much of what electronic music is today. They invented their own drum sounds and created their own sampling when those things just didn't exist. They created their own drum machines and synths at their own studio Kling Klang in Dusseldorf...they created their own sound, which much of what we hear today is based around and were very much before their time.

Their influence on todays' electronic music and even rap is huge and their music is sampled a lot today by these genres. They created that electronic drum sound well before you could buy a machine off the shelf that could make that sound.

If you listen to albums like Trans Europe Express (1977) or even earlier albums like Autobahn (1974) you get an idea of how far ahead of the curve these guys were with electronic music and electropop.

They inspired me to buy a guitar synth (Arp Avatar) and so it began for me. Devo was another. My music friends didn't know what to think of me because I was listening to George Benson then the Cars, Devo, Santana, Brand X, Classical and everything in between. But soon it all became an electronic business for me. I figured if I could get enough things playing at once, I could be my own band. I love playing in bands but I also love being free to make something all me.

Kurt Foster Sun, 10/09/2016 - 17:10

audiokid, post: 442029, member: 1 wrote: Nope. I can program bar by bar with everything loose and natural sounding. Even with slight quantization. It takes time but it can be done. I agree that there is a element that is unforgiving in certain areas, but at that point it becomes a business decisions. Do we piss off the drummer or make this better.
I would go so far to say that well programmed drums for most popular music (the kind of songs billboard charts are all about), will win in the end. Do we suck or sell millions.
I am not claiming this would fit for progressive music like Brand X, Santana, Jazz, etc. but anything that is straight forward RR, Tom Petty (I love Tom Petty) , ZZ top, even a lot of Blues, the list goes on, I could program the drums and without doubt, at least augment sections of drums in area's if not the entire track to sound better.

I'm also not saying we should or need to do that, but lets be clear, good drum programming does not sound tic tic.
(not directed at you Sean.)

the o/ps post did sound tic/tic.

(with love) :love:
imo drum programming just sucks because it a replacement for a real person, playing a real instrument. machines will never replace people. no one should have to explain this. i know everyone here knows better. it's denial plain and simple. a sin of convenience.

i'm not talking about timing only. there's much more to it. velocity, hitting the drum in a slightly different place every time, the skins stretching and shrinking from the vibration at each hit, drums ringing in sympathy, differences in room interactions, what the temperature and air pressure is doing, how well the drum is holding tune. to my ear programmed drums often sound "too good". they don't sound real. adding more fake on top (insert processor of choice) just does more harm imo.

organic music is random. there's no way any programmer will ever capture the whole enchilada. no instrument will sound exactly the same on every note (other than digital emulations) and the reason they do have a consistency is because they are a limited number of different "hits" for each sound sample.

i really don't get it. it's far easier to just put up a few mics and record a good drum kit played by a real good drummer. it takes me far longer and much more effort to program a midi or machine track. the only reason to lean on these tools imo is because there's no access for the recordist to the real thing.

I've heard your argument that it's what popular music is is but it doesn't carry water for me. it sounds like crap to me and i don't care if a bunch of pimple faced kids in their parents attic / basement / garage like it or not. what do they know? zip. why should i care? they don't buy music. they download free mp3's. they don't know what "real" sounds like in the first place. they've grown up hearing crap and they think there's good crap and bad crap ..... but to me it's all just crap. i hope that puts the pop music argument to bed. :love:

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 17:29

Kurt Foster, post: 442034, member: 7836 wrote: i really don't get it. it's far easier to just put up a few mics and record a good drum kit played by a real good drummer. it takes me far longer and much more effort to program a midi or machine track. the only reason to lean on these tools imo is because there's no access for the recordist to the real thing.

I agree and disagree.
There is a point that if a drummer is too dynamic, I will crush it anyway. I don't want all that dynamic in pop music. Its not an attribute to the overall sound which is, the drums are there for the beat, not to be the highlight. Real drums recorded in most studios sound like a mom and pop thing. It isn't an attribute in today's market. It is live, but not when it comes to what kids are buying and the sound of the beat.

Kurt Foster, post: 442034, member: 7836 wrote: I've heard your argument that it's what popular music is is but it doesn't carry water for me. it sounds like crap to me and i don't care if a bunch of pimple faced kids in their parents attic / basement / garage like it or not. what do they know? zip. why should i care? they don't buy music. they download free mp3's. they don't know what "real" sounds like in the first place. they've grown up hearing crap and they think there's good crap and bad crap ..... but to me it's all just crap. i hope that puts the pop music argument to bed. :love:

I think a lot of kids, including mine as well, buy music today. My kids get it. They love their itunes and believe me, they do not listen to real drums the same way that they listen to "modern" tracks. I know you hate the term modern, but it defines sound to me.
I would never think about using real drums in a mass amount of the songs my kids sing to. It would be sonic suicide.

You are in the past Kurt. I love your dedication, convictions to the art and tradition but I also know this is the way it is. Its no different to what the electric guitar did for rock. You cannot make real drums on their own sound as big and full as what can be accomplished with some or complete electronic manipulation.

Also, to touch on sound replacement, this is yet another area that uses drums as a trigger. I have less experience in this area but know from experience that I can use software to trigger a sound replacement. I wouldn't use it for everything but I would definitely consider for kicks and even snares.

Again though, it would be a business decision. You are correct that its so easy to put up a mic and track the drums but that sounds like crap in comparison to the bigger mix. Obviously the bigger mix to you sounds phony. But to my kids, this is the sound of success and what they would pay for.

As they are maturing they are developing a broader taste, but soon they will have the taste and fall into the less buying and more living as an adult. Not record buying people. And so it goes. We stand firm, starve in the name of tradition or keep surviving and moving with the sound of the generations coming. It doesn't mean we are selling out. It means that is the sound of what is triggering peoples interests.
I don't exclude anything. It all adds to my arsenal of tricks.

Kurt Foster Sun, 10/09/2016 - 18:07

all said with good intentions , love and hugs.

audiokid, post: 442035, member: 1 wrote: You cannot make real drums on their own sound as big and full as what can be accomplished with some or complete electronic manipulation.

i do not agree. i actually think these drum tones you like so much sound fake and (as i already said) too good. if that's what you like go for it. it's not my cuppa' however.

you think i'm in the past but i don't. i think you are following trends and not blazing new trails. when has it ever been a good thing to let our kids tell us what's good? wtf do they know? they hate everything we like just to be contrary. it's part of growing up. all kids think adults are full of sh*t. it will take them years to realize we are right about some things.

i don't think many who remember would argue i have been historically ahead of the curve for years. i was one of the first to recognize that cheap recording gear was going to ruin the recording studio business. it's great for the manufacturers but very bad for the professional recordist.

when others were saying rack crap was as good as boutique gear, i was the one who said no it's not. it took many folks here and at other forums / bb's years to get on board when it comes to high volt rails, when i was speaking about them 10 years ago. i was the one who said LA2s 1176's, ELOPS were good while cheapo wall wart powered comps like the the RNC wern't. 10 years ago everyone was shouting how great the RNP's were. i don't hear so much about them anymore. i took a lot of heat over that and was abandoned by everyone and left swinging in the wind. no one has ever said gee Kurt, you weren't wrong about that. but that was ok with me because i knew all along things would come back around and at some point i would be vindicated. and so it has.

i see things as coming back around to natural and real. all the media i see and read shows a return to (1) large format consoles, (2) tape (3) live tracking with real instruments.

yes there is a portion of records still utilizing midi programming like hip hop and rap urban, and what you call "pop". it won't last. it's breathing it's last gasps as we discuss. for some, like film composers, i get it. it makes sense but i actually see a light at the end of the tunnel.

and the bottom line to me is we should not allow ourselves to lose thes skill sets used in recording real live instruments. i can record midi all day. real hard. plug in a cable. but i also know how to use mics and processing gear to record real vibrations that excite the air in a room.

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 20:05

Kurt Foster, post: 442036, member: 7836 wrote: i see things as coming back around to natural and real. all the media i see and read shows a return to (1) large format consoles, (2) tape (3) live tracking with real instruments.

Real instruments will always be here. I see it never leaving but it may also share the same struggles as classical musicians experience where, its all beautiful but not where the money is. I hope I am very wrong about this.
I'm an accomplished guitarist, my children are classical pianists, I come from a family that has written a symphony, performed with the Metropolitan opera so I do get it and know how beautiful real instruments sound. So I share your passion 100%.

From a commercial business approach.

Be clear, I'm not talking about elimination of real instrumentation. Drums and pop music is the focus here.
But Iwe cannot deny where electronics and ITB is taking music. There is simply way too much ITB to say, Tape is coming back and we are going to burn all the computers and software.

Tape, I hardly doubt that it will ever return. I see it as a fad but its far from the better sonic and it also costs more money. It is not an affordable solution and that alone will kill that dream ever returning. People are using it because they are suffering from DAC rash and Avid crap. Plain and simple. We all heard it back then and it will always be a step behind cutting edge.

Converters are in their infancy. My gawd, once ADDA reaches a few more notches, it will be so amazing it will be undeniable. Tape will be completely off the radar for ever. Didn't this already happen, like 20 years ago?

I am not saying real drums are unimportant, my gawd, all drums and percussion instruments are beautiful. I am simply saying most studios cannot capture drums well enough to make the pop music cut. Its far more feasible and logical for most studios today (who are in the business of pop music erk...) to look to samples for help. If not, I wish those studios well. I certainly wouldn't be in that camp to stand firm and say I will never go that route.

My opinion on this specific topic is targeted to modern music and after tracking. My comments are mix room talk, not a welcoming discussion for recordists who spend tons of money building a studio like Max and other did or are doing.

Of course it sounds more natural to track the vocal together with real drums, especially if everyone in the bands goal is to sound like a band in that room. It would (more likely than not) sound out of place to incorporate a garage band with huge sounding pop music samples just as it would sound silly to mix garage drums with a virtual pop mix. Which is likley what your experience has been from the get go; wrong approach with mismatching well engineered samples with the old school sound.

My point is and why I chimed in was to discredit the very misleading comment that samples and drum machines sound thin and phony. This is simply not true which is what my debate is about.

Mixing is a completely different side of the music business. What goes on in mix rooms is not what recordist want to read about in recording forums. Its disrespectful for me to even discuss this here. Which I apologize but felt it necessary to clarify the facts about samplers etc.

I'd love to have a nice console but it would never be my top end choice again. I love modular and ITB too much to ever go back to those days.
Being said, if I was just starting out, recording bands on a budget, StudioLive and Capture would be my first choice.
It is so simple and would sound every bit as good as the old days. For less than $2000 you can have a 24 channel console and enough software to be noticed. What more do most of us really need.

Sean G Sun, 10/09/2016 - 20:21

audiokid, post: 442037, member: 1 wrote: My point is and why I chimed in was to discredit the very misleading comment that samples and drum machines sound thin and phony. This is simply not true which is what my debate is about.

Once again, just for the record, in my defense I made that statement in the context of how I hear songs with drum machine samples like the above, based around sounds similar to a Roland 808 or TR-909 which are prevalent today in that particular genre.

And I preceeded it with the words " To me...."


Just for the record ;)

audiokid Sun, 10/09/2016 - 20:25

Sean G, post: 442039, member: 49362 wrote: Once again, just for the record, in my defense I made that statement in the context of how I hear songs with drum machine samples like the above, based around sounds similar to a Roland 808 or TR-909 which are prevalent today in that particular genre.

And I preceeded it with the words " To me...."


Just for the record ;)

Got it now and the first time you clarified that!
Just clarify for Kurt.
I'm over and out on this one.

Cheers!

DonnyThompson Mon, 10/10/2016 - 15:20

audiokid, post: 442032, member: 1 wrote: Devo was another.

From my hometown. They used to play the local bars around Akron and Kent.

Me and my fellow musicians of that time used to go see them in the local clubs, but really just to laugh at them, wearing those goofy upside-down flower pots on their heads, playing what we thought was ridiculous, stupid, "new wave" music... and of course we all were very full of ourselves, thinking that we were "serious" musicians, and that Devo was just "goofy'... nothing more than a "joke" band. They did a few locally recorded albums, and we continued to laugh, thinking, "these are just regionally produced and pressed albums that anyone can do, nothing more than a silly band with a goofy gimmick, they're a joke, and for sure they will flash-out in a few months, once the joke gets old.

But, it didn't. In the late 70's, they did Saturday Night Live. They played what we thought was a terrible version of the Stones' Satisfaction. But it didn't matter, they had played SNL.
Yet, we still remained steadfast in our own bloated opinions of ourselves as "serious" musicians, rationalizing their appearance on the most popular show at that time by saying to each other, "well, yeah, it's SNL, but c'mon now, certainly we can all agree that their appearance was just all for the sake of a joke"...
so, we continued to laugh...

Then their Freedom of Choice album came out in the early 80's. It was recorded at a real studio ( The Record Plant), and was released on a real label ( Warner Bros), and on the cover was a picture of Mark Mothersbaugh and the guys, still wearing those stupid &$@#^&-ing upside-down flower pots on their heads, with Whip It! as the lead single on the album, and the record was selling... really selling huge numbers, and the song was getting massive rotation on commercial radio, and the band was getting all kinds of attention, playing far less locally, because instead they were touring both nationally and internationally, and they were doing big shows, and recording at real studios and appearing on TV and making music videos for MTV, and we heard Whip It everywhere, and even local club bands were adding Devo songs to their set lists...

By then we'd finally stopped laughing.

;)

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