I think the bass guitar track could come forward a little in the mix...I was A/B'ing it between a set of Yamaha HS7's & a pair of Rokit 5's and I was trying hard to hear the bass...it seemed a little buried in the background to me once it came in. Get it further up front locking in with that electric guitar and then the drum track in harmony with each other.

There were some sections where it sounded a little thin, but I think raising the bass track a few db could help fill things out a little and give some bottom end to the mix.

What I say is only subjective to what / how I'm hearing it. I would also add some volume automation to build crescendo from the 5:30 sec mark ...you really it to rock out from the lead break to build up to the big finish.

STH is a song of three sections...

1) the mellow acoustic intro,

2)where the electric guitar and bass come in,

3) finally you really want that uptempo hard rock finish to the end.

It would be good to hear it with vocals as this adds much more to the track...a good vox track is basically another instrument by way of voice, especially in the style Robert Plant sings Zeppelin songs.

I'd try a little more reverb on the drums also, maybe something with a longer reverb tail. They sound a little dry, especially the snare.
Bozo had a huge, powerful drum sound that added heaps of character to the final section of STH and this also helps add to the crescendo to the big finale.

Not a bad effort for such a legendary song to take on...but its one of those songs you have to nail to give it justice, even playing it live.

My comments are only subjective to how I would like to hear it...others may have a different opinion.

IMHO of course.

Thanks Sean:

I'll wait for any additional comments on the drums then dig into those a bit deeper - I had set up for lots of ambient bleed and had more OH then got a bit spooked it was too much so toned it back.
I'm not sure what happened to the bass - I think I inadvertently messed up a fader just before rendering that may have been the culprit - that's adjusted now but may need more.
Notes: I don't own a 12 string so the 12 string guitar is simulated by playing the part with two guitars - one in standard tuning and the other Nashville tuning to replicate. Getting the balance between the two guitars is tricky (I actually used 3 - I doubled the Nashville tuned part but kept one dominant).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/isdzbjyax8jlrle/Stairway-learicist-g9.wav?dl=0
Wav File Above

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pa00wcendw8q382/Stairway-learicist-g9.mp3?dl=0
MP3 File Above

Sounds much better now the bass can be heard. The drums sound like they are sitting better as well now they have something to hold hands with and there is balance to the rhythm section...and it has a little more rockin' going on in the final section of the song...a little more swing to it by having that bass there that was a little absent in the first post.

(y)

I think it's a very admirable and respectable attempt at a very iconic - and difficult - song to get right.

There were a few things that stood out for me:

Tuning/Intonation - you need to check these on your two ( three) guitars, and I'm pretty sure your bass guitar isn't tuned to the track. Resolving the tuning on the 12 string may fix this.

There are times where it seems "pushed"... somewhat beforehand, but especially when the drums come in. It seems a bit fast to me at that section, and the drums are sitting too far "up top"... this isn't a term to describe the volume level of the drums, but that describes where the drums are sitting rhythmically and feel-wise on or against the downbeat, or, "the 1".

While not an obvious "pocket/groove" oriented song in general, (not like an EWF or Kool & The Gang track), there's still a "feel" to this song.. it's a relaxed kind of vibe, and Stairway does "lay back" quite a bit, and right now it sounds too pushed to me.

I'd also like to hear it with a lead vocal.

But, all in all, a very respectable job. ;)

Thanks Sean - I'm hoping the vocal will kick off that section as well.

Thanks Donny -- I'm interested in the drums particularly because I've hand programmed these on the grid (one mouse click at a time). I didn't use any quantization/humanization so I'm curious about programming strategies with those. What would the best way to achieve that kind of thing (without automating some kind of quantization)? Is there a specific strategy or tip folks use?

I'll look at the tuning as well - I know I made some intonation adjustments at some point . I'm hoping when vocals come in I can glue this all together in the mix.

You should be able to take the midi file(s) for the drums and slip-edit ( slide) them back a tick or two, as a whole, by highlighting ( selecting) all of the drum tracks, and then slipping them back a bit.

I'd start with two ticks ( depending on your midi resolution, I work with 96 ticks per 1/4 note) and then see how they feel.

I don't know exactly how your midi commands work on your DAW, but I would think that you could select all the drum files and pull them back a scoodge. It wouldn't take much, and I wouldn't think it would take much time, either.

Just something you may want to try.

What DAW are you using?

DonnyThompson, post: 439615, member: 46114 wrote: You should be able to take the midi file(s) for the drums and slip-edit ( slide) them back a tick or two, as a whole, by highlighting ( selecting) all of the drum tracks, and then slipping them back a bit.

I'd start with two ticks ( depending on your midi resolution, I work with 96 ticks per 1/4 note) and then see how they feel.

I don't know exactly how your midi commands work on your DAW, but I would think that you could select all the drum files and pull them back a scoodge. It wouldn't take much, and I wouldn't think it would take much time, either.

Just something you may want to try.

What DAW are you using?

I'm using Reaper -- I'll dig into this and report back.

Good. What Donny said. The drums are the absolute hardest part of this to get right. The reason being Bonzo had a backbeat feel like no before or since. His feel of the drumms actually PULLED the beat backwards if you will...."relaxed" is a correct term yet it was relaxed with very bad intention. The man hit the heck outta things and hit them where the tone was the largest. So yeah, this take feels "pushed".....And the bass doesn't have that back feel either. JPJ is a master at the Motown/James Jamerson/Babbitt thing of making the changes in the pattern either in front of the chordal change or behind it. So at times there's a half count of bass being already on the next change before everything else or waiting a count to get there after. Its something a person gets or they don't. But it IS the FUNK that happens behind all that wall of sound with ZEP. The drums drag and the bass is lyrical yet in its own pocket. And ITS BEHIND TOO just not the same behind as the top of the drums.

Look at the beat as two separate pieces. The bass and the kik are in a different space than the cymbal/snare work. It is the beauty that was John Henry Bonham. And NO ONE has duplicated that feel .....No one.

I'll be digging into this over the holiday here for sure guys - many thanks.

One of the challenges I've found doing this is that the song has a tempo crescendo in it. When I laid down the matrix and set the bpms I could program the crescendo gradually over several bars so this makes any adjustment of the midi track as a whole complicated because 2 ticks (or positions) on any measure does not equal the same for the next.

I'm going to try to break the midi up and deal with it in sections and maybe do some math to see what specific adjustments would be needed on a section by section basis.

Just to be clear - by moving the beat back we are actually talking about moving the track forward -- ie linear to the right which moves the beat back?

DogsoverLava, post: 439753, member: 48175 wrote: linear to the right which moves the beat back?

Correct, DOL.

You want the drums to be slightly behind the beat, just a little more than they are now... which means you'll want to shift the position of the drum tracks on your timeline to the right, so that they sit a tweak late... but I wasn't suggesting you do it by much... just a tick or two to start, and adjust in very small increments, ( it might end up needing more than just a few ticks, you'll have to play with it) to have the drums "sit back" in the pocket a bit more, as Bonzo's style is "relaxed" on this track.

And yes, there is a slight increase/decrease in tempo as the song moves on - after all, it was a human playing the drums, and I'd bet money they didn't use a click track when they recorded STH; so it sort of pushes and pulls periodically...
I'm not talking about the obvious change-ups, (ie the section right before the A/G/F progression at the end with the lead solo) I was referring to when the drums first come in with the tom fill, and up to the D Sus riff that sets up the A/G/F section
( 4:19 - 5:23 ).

This was the section where the drums stood out to me as sitting too "on top" of the beat. I just wanted to hear the drums sit back a bit.

Of course, all of this is being pretty picky; I don't know how accurate you want your arrangement to be - it's certainly not an easy song to exactly copy by any means, ( as if this is really even possible) and I think you've done an admirable job thus far.

I haven't really commented on the actual mix yet, as I don't believe that you've yet done a final mix on your end. Up to now, I've been listening more with the ears of a musician, and not as much as an engineer. That said, I haven't heard anything glaringly wrong with your current mix.

I'd be happy to listen to the final mix once you get one - and provide engineering suggestions if you want - and that's if I hear something I think needs adjusted - once you've tweaked the arrangement to your satisfaction and put a mix in the can.

;)
-d.

Hey Guys - here's a new mix that's a little cleaner, but more specifically with the drums adjusted. To my ear this sounds better for sure - especially the drums -- have I gone far enough with them? Too far? Donny - you've been invaluable with this so far - everyone's help is much appreciated for sure.

Obviously I'm still waiting on vocals and I do think I'll take another run at the base track - I'll audit the arrangement there for accuracy then spend a day on it making sure it tracks well -- but here's a question with respect to that. If I re-record the bass tracks to the new drums as opposed to the metronome/perfect time, will this not affect the nature of time for me in the bass pass and actually bring me into conflict with the other tracks? Should I record my bass track with the unaltered or unadjusted drums or do you think I'm safe to lay it down here with these new adjusted drum tracks?

NOTE#1 My intended vocalist for this was seriously injured in a car accident and is dealing with the complications of severe life altering injury. I'm hoping he'll be able to sing this (and I offered it to him) but it just might not be possible. I can only imagine what he's dealing with and no matter what - if he delivers I'll do a mix with him for sure - but I'm on plan B looking for vocals. If you know anyone that would like to take a stab at this or that you think might I'd be happy to talk to them for sure.

Note#2 Just a Note on the file here: mp3 quality is at 90% as I was hitting the file limit for the site upload

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Much better... but can you pull them back even a little more?

Take a listen to the original ( as if you probably haven't heard it more than anyone else in the universe has already, LOL) and focus your listening on the drums... I think you'll hear just how relaxed Bonzo is, sitting back in the pocket.

DonnyThompson, post: 439959, member: 46114 wrote: Much better... but can you pull them back even a little more?

Take a listen to the original ( as if you probably haven't heard it more than anyone else in the universe has already, LOL) and focus your listening on the drums... I think you'll hear just how relaxed Bonzo is, sitting back in the pocket.

I feel like I just might have listened to it more than anyone in the universe at this point lol!!! I will -- I'll take a fresh listen tomorrow. My own unarticulated "discomfort" with the drum tracks definitely was relieved by the changes suggested.

Here we go - I adjusted them by about 50% more of the last adjustment - I'm amazed at how it changes the feel of the bass track already. Super happy with these changes - they change the whole feel of the song.

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Now yer talkin'. ;)

Much better feel, a nice pocket.

Way better (y)

Thanks guys - It will be interesting mixing this with vocals as they come in. There might be the odd thing to re-track as I go forward but a lot of it will depend on vocals. I've reached out to a couple of people so I may get to play with a couple of tracks which could prove interesting trying to fit two different voices into the song.

Better. It still has that feel that everything is trying hit on one at the top of each measure. Could be the bass. If you want this to be right, then getting John Paul Jones in the right space is going to make a huge difference. He's playing "lead rudiment bass". Listen to the space he gives every other thing in the song. While at the same time covering so much real estate by himself. As I said before....he is a master much like the Motown guys....he hits the chordal changes in different reference to one than the guitars and keys. Think of the BASS breathing in on AND one on most of the phrasing and you'll get where I'm coming from. Its all about the funk.

Better. It still has that feel that everything is trying hit on one at the top of each measure. Could be the bass. If you want this to right, then getting John Paul Jones in the right space is going to make a huge difference. He's playing "lead rudiment bass". Listen to the space he gives every other thing in the song. While at the same time covering so much real estate by himself. As I said before....he is a master much like the Motown guys....he hits the chordal changes in different reference to one than the guitars and keys. Think of the BASS breathing in on AND one on most of the phrasing and you'll get where I'm coming from. Its all about the funk.

Davedog, post: 440092, member: 4495 wrote: Better. It still has that feel that everything is trying hit on one at the top of each measure. Could be the bass. If you want this to be right, then getting John Paul Jones in the right space is going to make a huge difference. He's playing "lead rudiment bass". Listen to the space he gives every other thing in the song. While at the same time covering so much real estate by himself. As I said before....he is a master much like the Motown guys....he hits the chordal changes in different reference to one than the guitars and keys. Think of the BASS breathing in on AND one on most of the phrasing and you'll get where I'm coming from. Its all about the funk.

Thanks Davedog. I definitely will be auditing the bass and re-tracking after the audit. This bass track was a little stiff and way too self conscious -- there will be new bass!! Just need some time with the track again.

Just letting you all know this is still in play - getting closer I hope in sorting vocals and bass is coming along too.

Alright -- so after hitting several brick walls and dead ends with respect to vocals I put up a local ad on craigslist here in Vancouver as a Hail Mary ([[url=http://[/URL]="http://vancouver.cr…"]link here[/]="http://vancouver.cr…"]link here[/]) just laying it out... within two days I had 4 respondents that all wanted tracks --- it's looking like 3 of them might come through -- the first one's tracks came in this morning: Here's where I'm at with the mix. (I've requested a second stem and asked her to double the post solo vocal). She cut her vocal using garage band and I think a condenser mic. She does some real nice little departures from Plant's phrasing that totally works for her voice and fits quite well. (Although I call this mix one - it's just the first mix I actually rendered - worked on it about 6 hours)
Michelle P. Mix1

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

I'm more interested in immediate first impressions on this and broad directions as I expect I'll be working on this quite a bit (she's sending a second stem).

[MEDIA=audio]https://recording.o…

So I'm going to call this my first proper mix --- Everything I do on this vocalist will be from here on out. First - she gives a much more intimate vocal than Robert - so my challenge is having her loud enough in the track to be heard but not so loud that is sounds like she's singing over a karaoke track. Second - her voice has more tonal depth than Robert's so when I EQ her to sound more like him I lose that really round pleasant tonal quality she brings to the mix so this complicates my mix strategy which was to use Stairway as a reference mix. Do I need to make more room for her in the mix on any specific areas (ie, guitars - any frequencies she butting heads with?) How's she sit now? How do I knit her in better if necessary?

couple of small track notes: I get some mouth noises - saliva pops at a couple points - never dealt with those before. Given her use of a condenser more noise is being picked up in general but that sort of fits with my acoustic tracks where the RODE and the 57 both picked up my breathing. She's also got a few idiosyncratic pronunciations - I believe she's not a native English speaker -- but this really adds to the charm of the vocal for me. I was able to get a double track of the post solo vocal plus I doubled here original vocal and time shifted it slightly and burried it in the mix. I can time stretch and edit the .wav to make things match/fit better if something jumps out more. Also I have no compression on the track - not even on the master bus. (though there some compression on the bass in the amp sim/DI and possibly on drums inside the drum program).

Many Thanks
Michelle PV2:

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

well, she's certainly no pitchier than Plant was... in fact her pitch is a little bit better. There were a few times I winced, but then I reminded myself that Plant was as pitchy as a maple tree in March. LOL...

It's an interesting vocal track....I don't hate it. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 440627, member: 46114 wrote: well, she's certainly no pitchier than Plant was... in fact her pitch is a little bit better. There were a few times I winced, but then I reminded myself that Plant was as pitchy as a maple tree in March. LOL...

It's an interesting vocal track....I don't hate it. ;)

There are a couple of pull me out of the song moments --- she mispronounces "...hedgerow and alarmed" and she exchanges the melody on "When all are one and one is all" and "To be a rock and not to roll"... Then there are maybe two specific pitchy bits maybe to fix.... So I'll have her retrack the post solo stuff and see if I can punch in a fix on hedgerow.... The issue with the punch in is probably going to be matching the sound of the vocal to her original take given the setup she uses.

Overall I found her vocal quite charming and understated - a little bit of whimsy at the sacrifice of some more dramatic readings of the lyric but unique enough to hold my interest . For an amateur using I think garage band and a USB condenser mic she did pretty good. I'll do some pitch corrections on a couple of notes later -- how does she sit in the song to you at this point Donny? Do I need to open up space for her?

Nice job, I here a lot of improvement from the first post !
I think the acoustic could use more low freq (if it produced any) and the vocal could be a bit more upfront and have more HF at some places (mainly in the first half).

I always find it a bit pointless to recreate the old sound of the classic albums since we can sound a lot better today. ( Yes, I think we can ! )
I have a customer who made his own mix/master to compare to mine lately. It was some Modern hard rock compo a la greenday. It had a nice effort but I think he thought tape saturation must be heard to be good.. Everything was saturated and muddy...
I really think modern sounds can apply to any music even if you record old 60's songs again today. You see, if they were recorded for the first time today, they wouldn't sound like they do. To me what made them unique is how they were performed more than what technology and gear was used.
I fully respect the effort to make it authentic here.. By copying the greatest of the past we can become better at what we do, that's true.
But in the end, you're not gonna resell a copy of the original unless you make it original again by re-arranging it and put it at today's pace !
(Just my opinion)

By HF -- are you suggesting I take out some of the highs or add to them? I thought she was already a bit brittle in that range but I'm totally open to it. Can you suggest any specific frequency ranges?

OK Here's a tweaked mix with a slightly edited vocal and the ending vocal fixed so she's not inverting the melody on the last two lines. Would love some feedback on how affectively her voice is sitting in the track and general where I'm at with this mix feedback. I cleaned up a couple small elements (eliminated a few FX on a couple guitar tracks)

Michelle PV5

Many thanks guys

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Good job Dogoverlava !!

So I'm running out of meaningful progress on this one so the mix may be reaching its conclusion with this vocalist - So one last upload also with the idea that the next stage with this one is mastering. Is there anything in the mix that needs attention first and with the idea that the next mix is the one I want to lock in for mastering and is there anything additional I need to do to prepare for that? Right now my master bus is bumped up to about +6 just for volume -- I have enormous headroom otherwise. Does my for mastering mix need to be rendered at the null point? (at Zero?) Is that what I'm about to do is render this mix then master from that mix?

Michelle PV6

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Its a very hard song to cover for a vocalist, because everyone will compare your effort to the original, which can be a curse as a vocalist when covering such an iconic song.

Like Donny I don't dislike it, but it is different. To me there are parts that sounded a little flat and nasally, and it sounded like your singer was singing from the head, not the diaphragm.

Its a very laid back and relaxed vocal as well...As the centrepiece of the song I wanted the vocals to jump out and grab me and follow the crescendo in the song.

It needed a little more zest...but that's just my opinion. ;)

I've got 3 different vocalists all doing tracks for this project and the deal I made with them was that for participating I'd give them back a properly mixed and mastered track featuring them. This vocalist is the most amateur of the 3 and her setup is probably the most budget - usb mic into garageband. She gives a very understated performance that does indeed show her flaws both with tone and actual singing technique, but I was most impressed by her ability to sustain and control that understated performance throughout the song -I kept waiting for her to break the continuity of it but she didn't which really surprised me. It was an unusual take for sure - with an almost whimsical element to it and there were some unique features of her singing due to her accent that I found charming. The take was unusual enough that I'd be curious to hear other understated versions because although like you I wanted more zest - I think with the right arrangement that kind of performance might work. I give her an A for effort and for me it works because it presents me with an opportunity to mix a vocal that I might not otherwise encounter. This whole project is one big learning lab for me. My next two singers are pro-level (or at least semi-pro) with albums & singles under their belts (one more woman and a man) and should offer a more traditional mixing challenge. At least - that's what I hope.

So I tried to warm her voice up just a wee bit and take a little bit of the heady throaty tone out and shape it a bit more rounded, and I did what was suggested on the post solo vocal section and split the parts on their own buses to EQ match, then dumped them to a common bus for the commonly applied effects. The sound matches a bit better and it was cleaner than what I was doing before (envelopes controlling on and off EQ etc). Two big questions still arise for me here: Does the vocal (with its inherent limitations) sit in the proper place in the mix - do I need to address the mix more? And then the question of ready to master (see above)?

Michelle PV7

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

I think I've settled on this mix for mastering. I cleaned up the vocal a little bit and made some subtle pitch correction on a few notes here and there on the vocal. I've got a nice balance I think between all the parts and some good dynamics to play with.

Michelle PV9.MP3

If you want the 24 bit .Wav file you can find it here: It is rendered with the master bus on null and is the file I took into mastering https://www.dropbox.com/s/5frcrwdb5m1maxy/Stairway-MichellePV9.wav?dl=0

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

As I've progressed through the initial mastering experiments with the previous mixes I just wasn't happy with my results and I concluded that my mix was partly to blame -- it had lost it's gentleness and some of the softer dynamics and textures and had become shrill and brittle as the faders crept up and the EQ pushed into the highs more so I completely reworked it to open up more space for the vocal and to get rid of the shrills and replace them with more bell tones. I think this mix is way better and I will try to use it for the next round of mastering experiments. I revisited the original Zeppelin mix and tried to keep to the spirit of that mix a little more closely. I also cleaned up some crowded frequencies on the Electric guitar tracks and the interplay and balance between the electric and acoustic. Overall this is a better mix for me I think.

Michelle PV12

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

I posted the Wet and Dry Stems for this project). Here's a couple direct links to the files so you don't have to go to my thestairwayproject web page. Note there are no vocals with these, just the instruments.
Dry Stems (all stems): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1BzN0g-5oInV0hSRndncm45cVk
Wet Stems (grouped): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1BzN0g-5oInWnI2RFJOMnRwZG8

This is my google drive account and the stems are zipped in winrar. - no viruses or hidden nasties.
Just in case anyone wanted to play around with them.

I love the mixes on my earbuds .(y)
The vocal sits great for me sonically . The prob is that Michelle is singing the words but she's not
conveying the message convincingly , so that is all that is missing for me , only one thing but the most
important . Maybe she never grew up with the song like most of us have .

great mixing IMO

Smashh, post: 444315, member: 45856 wrote: I love the mixes on my earbuds .(y)
The vocal sits great for me sonically . The prob is that Michelle is singing the words but she's not
conveying the message convincingly , so that is all that is missing for me , only one thing but the most
important . Maybe she never grew up with the song like most of us have .

great mixing IMO

Thanks Ash - I'm still aspiring to better mixes all the time and I'm still learning lots as I go and from the feedback I get so thanks to all.
I'm with you on the lyrical disconnect but in Michelle's case I think it's because English is not her first language. My songwriting partner told me he " ...evaluate every version of Stairway [he] hear[s] based on how the singer delivers the line There's a feeling I get when I look to the West... ." For him that's his litmus test. Michelle's charm is in her amateur delivery but what she brings to the song is more of a general whimsy in mood and tone - a pleasantness that would be more at home on say Going to California" It's an interesting contrast to how deep Stairway can get/go. In a way it works for me here because it fits in with her style so it is consistent within the vocal take but what we loose is the drama and the conveyance of weight and Majesty that comes with Stairway. What's good is she does not oversing the song so it stays consistent to her performance. I find it more of a crime when it is over-sung and equally disconnected from the lyric. I'll have a new vocal in hand soon from a different female vocalist (more Pro-Am) that I have high hopes for. Looking forward to the contrast and challenge.[/s]