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Why RTAS sounds worst than TDM

Hi

Last week I've opened in a PT LE,
a session of a project that I've started in my PT Mix+.

Wow. What a surprise.
The Focusrite D2 RTAS sounds totally different than TDM version.
With the same equalization, exactly.

And I was really disappointed on Bass Drum, that normally is a track
with plenty of equalization. Sounds a lot bad!

My question is:

This difference was because of TDM->RTAS change or PT TDM->PT LE change ?

Cause when I open a plugin RTAS with the PT Mix+, the sound difference is minimal...

Then, can I trust really in Digidesign LE products ?

Waiting for your opinion...

Best Regards

Comments

anonymous Mon, 07/11/2005 - 13:18
McCheese wrote: Was this an entirely different system you switched it to? If so, it could be different monitors, and lots of other things.

No, impossible.

I've bought this 'LE system' and a 2.4ghz PC for use with Rewire tools, like Reason, Sample Tank, etc, because my TDM system runs in a G3 Mac (B&W) that not supports OS X and PT 6 to run Rewire instruments.

So, I´m really disappointed.

I've bounced one same project in both systems: LE and TDM, using the same plug-ins (just D2, LA2A, Pultec, 1176, and digirack deesser) and I´m sorry but the LE sounds poor...

TDM sounds a lot better... There is a 'PRO' character that LE don't have.

There is some explanation ?

anonymous Tue, 07/12/2005 - 08:28
McCheese wrote: I smell a "I was working with some big dual 15" monitors and the kick was amazing! Then I took it home and worked on my Roland MicroCrap mini-monitors it just sounded like ass, therefore I need to spend $10k on software to make it sound right" kinda thing coming.

Well, before I would like to say that I was hoping to keep the discussion in a professional level ok.

You aren't speaking with some sucker.

If I told 'Impossible', is because that's 'Impossible'.

Of course that I've used the same monitors at the same mixroom.
I'm not a stupid to make comparisons using big dual 15" and after Roland MicroCrap mini-monitors.

Please, where are the pros in this forum ??

iznogood Tue, 07/12/2005 - 15:22
pro here too.....

i hope you didn't understand my remark as irony.... it wasn't

i firmly believe.... no.... i know that tdm sounds different from le....

as nuendo sounds different than pt tdm on the same converter playing the same soundfile !!!!

i've listened carefully to alot of systems.... and they all sound different....

just as the hardware version of a waves L2 sound different than the software.....

but be careful...... there's alot of techheads out there that will tell you otherwise.....

so trust your ears and do careful testing..... if in doubt do it as blindtesting..... but beware.... blind testing can be misleading

good luck

anonymous Tue, 07/12/2005 - 17:09
iznogood wrote: pro here too.....

i hope you didn't understand my remark as irony.... it wasn't


Hi, iznogood.

Yes, I've understood what you said !

My problem was with Mr. "McCheese".
He was not cool, was ??

Someone that write what he wrote, can't be a pro... I'm sorry.

Never never Kurt, Dave or David (for example) would be able to write with this form... With disrespect...

You're cool

Peace

McCheese Tue, 07/12/2005 - 21:45
How does asking an honest question make me "not pro?"

Your answer to "Is it different monitoring" was "It's impossible". That's not much of an answer, and a wrong one at that. Given the information you gave us, it's highly possible that you were using a different system. In fact, you said you're running it on a different system right here:


I've bought this 'LE system' and a 2.4ghz PC for use with Rewire tools, like Reason, Sample Tank, etc, because my TDM system runs in a G3 Mac (B&W) that not supports OS X and PT 6 to run Rewire instruments.

So my assumption was based on the information given (that you were, in fact, running a different system) and experiences I've had before with similar questions, that turned out to be exactly what I mentioned there. You didn't even really answer my question in the first place. So don't go getting your panties in a knot just because you're not providing any useful information.

I'm sorry I offended you, but if you poke around, you'll see we get our fair share of asshats here asking stupid useless questions, like "Can someone give me their Reason registration code" or "Which $5 preamp sounds just like a Neve".

As for "pro", well, I've been doing this long enough to become as jaded as I am. And yeah, I make money from it too.

Oh, and one more thing. I prefer to be called 'Sir' McCheese ;)

anonymous Wed, 07/13/2005 - 07:15
McCheese wrote: How does asking an honest question make me "not pro?"

Your answer to "Is it different monitoring" was "It's impossible". That's not much of an answer, and a wrong one at that. Given the information you gave us, it's highly possible that you were using a different system. In fact, you said you're running it on a different system right here:


I've bought this 'LE system' and a 2.4ghz PC for use with Rewire tools, like Reason, Sample Tank, etc, because my TDM system runs in a G3 Mac (B&W) that not supports OS X and PT 6 to run Rewire instruments.

So my assumption was based on the information given (that you were, in fact, running a different system) and experiences I've had before with similar questions, that turned out to be exactly what I mentioned there. You didn't even really answer my question in the first place. So don't go getting your panties in a knot just because you're not providing any useful information.

I'm sorry I offended you, but if you poke around, you'll see we get our fair share of asshats here asking stupid useless questions, like "Can someone give me their Reason registration code" or "Which $5 preamp sounds just like a Neve".

As for "pro", well, I've been doing this long enough to become as jaded as I am. And yeah, I make money from it too.

Oh, and one more thing. I prefer to be called 'Sir' McCheese ;)

Please, I want to talk just with the pros (or cool, intelligent people). Not you.

Go with your toys.

jonnyc Wed, 07/13/2005 - 11:59
Hey Thiago instead of being bitchy and complaining about how unprofessional someone is why don't you offer up a little more information to begin with. If you want an accurate answer you should post a complete question. You never once mentioned it was in the same studio, you just said you opened up a mix session into le and the focusrite plug in didn't sound the same. Then when you answer his first response you just say "impossible" not "yes it was in the same studio" just "impossible". And no LE won't sound like your Mix system because LE isn't a pro set up so posting this was really just a waste of time, if LE was supposed to sound exactly like TDM then everyone would save themselves 30 grand and buy an mbox. If you don't like what Sir McCheese had to say then maybe you should attempt to answer his initial response correctly instead of being so vague.

anonymous Wed, 07/13/2005 - 14:53
Dear,

He says: "it could be different monitors, and lots of other things."

My reply: "No, impossible"

Understand this:
If I said impossible, is because is impossible the reason be different monitors.
Is difficult to understand this ??

hmmm, just use a little bit of intelligence.

But OK !! If my reply was so incomprehensible, ok !
I until was replying your post
So did you answer mccheese's question?
You (johnnyc) was OK and wrote with good upbringing.

He (McCheese) was stupid, indelicate.

Please, just read this !!!

I smell a "I was working with some big dual 15" monitors and the kick was amazing! Then I took it home and worked on my Roland MicroCrap mini-monitors it just sounded like ass, therefore I need to spend $10k on software to make it sound right" kinda thing coming.

And you want that I stay quiet ?

McCheese Wed, 07/13/2005 - 15:18

If I said impossible, is because is impossible the reason be different monitors.
Is difficult to understand this ??

Yes, it is difficult to understand that. That isn't a coherent sentence.

Stupid and indelicate? This coming from the same person who said "You was OK and wrote with good upbringing." which tells me that your limited grasp of the english language means you probably don't even understand half of what is being said here.

As for reacting to my comment, yeah, stay quiet. Or better yet say something like "No, I was not using different monitors".

I'd expect the same reaction if I made a half-assed attempt to communicate in broken Portuguese in a Brazilian forum, then gone and insulted people that tried to clarify the problem for me.

I've seen 14 year olds talking like they're on AOL that make more sense. OMGWTF!!!1111eleventy!!12!

anonymous Wed, 07/13/2005 - 16:41
Yes, my english is bad, but I can understand each word that you write

Excuse me but it's a very logical sentence to me

If is impossible that different monitors be the problem, of course that I've used THE SAME MONITORS TO MAKE THE COMPARISON !!!!

Sometimes, one term in portuguese don't have perfect translation in english, but of course you don't know this... I'ld explain you this, if you just tell me.

But you prefer to insinuate (or suggest ?) that I'm some sucker to compare one bass drum in a big dual 15" monitors with a
Roland MicroCrap mini-monitors and to think that I need to spend $10k on software to make it sound right.

No more words to spend with you

Best regards

Kev Wed, 07/13/2005 - 17:57
ooo .... this is fun

I had SoundTools - Digidesign's first editor
I have had TDM since 4.0 Mix Plus
I currently have 2 001 systems and 3 AMIII systems.

The Mix+ systems was upgraded to HD3 last year.
I have the 96 I/O.

These are ALL my home toys and just for fun
In my work life I deal with the AMS Logic 3 editor system.

What is a professional ?

The basic difference between TDM and LE is not as great as people may have you believe.
YES
some plugs are very different
YES
the converters in the different I/O devices are very different

Simple mix and volume edits on both systems are so close that it is not easy and near impossible to prove ANY differences.
The typical tests are based around Sum/Null test techniques.

Let your ears judge ... I do
and I use test equipment ... both digital and analog.

shut up Kev
I'll go away now

anonymous Thu, 07/14/2005 - 09:27
Kev wrote: ooo .... this is fun

I had SoundTools - Digidesign's first editor
I have had TDM since 4.0 Mix Plus
I currently have 2 001 systems and 3 AMIII systems.

The Mix+ systems was upgraded to HD3 last year.
I have the 96 I/O.

These are ALL my home toys and just for fun

wow, what a wonderful (and expensive) playground...

just don't forget that actually, the same HD3 that you use 'just for fun' is making a lot of platinum albums around the world...

well, I've made this topic just to obtain 'technically' one answer that explain the cause of the sounds differences:

TDM -> LE system change

or

RTAS -> TDM plugs

please, somebody REALLY knows about this ?

ghellquist Thu, 07/14/2005 - 09:53
Thiago,
just maybe you could get more help at the Digidesign user conference.
http://duc.digidesign.com/

There might be some perfectly simple answer to the difference in sound, just maybe version x.y of your plugin has this problem. Or whatever.

Generally I find it sort of difficult to believe that Digidesign would want to release two systems that sound radically different. A bit different yes, as they use different technology in the base. If I am right, the TDM system is 48 bit fixed point, plugins are 24 bit fixed. The LE system and RTAS is 32 bit float. This would require the plugin writes to make two versions of each plugin, which could be an explanation. The difference in represantation in itself should not really make a really large difference (yes some).

Or it might be something completely different. Just maybe your sound card drivers for LE does not like a specific version of some program, you really cannot be sure. That is one of the good things about the larger PT systems, most of the things comes form one producer that has made sure things are compatible (well, even Digidesign makes it wrong at times).

Sorry, not much specific help in this post.

Gunnar.

Kev Thu, 07/14/2005 - 14:47
Thiago Monteiro wrote: wow, what a wonderful (and expensive) playground...
... please, somebody REALLY knows about this ?

yes it is
and yes I do

these questions have been done to death here and at other forums like the DUC and ProSound.
Guys like Nika have given great in depth explanations of all aspects of the game.

when you stat thrashing out the details the people in the discussion have to be on the same page with similar knowledge.

I honestly think there is better things to worry about while recording and the basic skills of the people record far outweigh these 48 bit 32 bit fixed floating ... and so on

each time we have a converter upgrade and software upgrade things do get better and easier
YES
years ago we were told 44.1k, 16 bit digital perfection

move on and just record

8)

as far as the playground comment is concerned
sorry I didn't mean to boast in any way.
Just got a little annoyed at the reference to PRO. We get that from time to time and I often let it pass.
I started with a Fostex 250 4 track cassette and a Korg SQD (Squid) sequencer with a Roland Alpha Juno.

I never mentioned the list of Keyboards and Instruments.

AND my playground is actually in the back yard in my new shed. In the shed is far more valuable gear than the above. I am a tech and build and repair equipment. Test gear can be expensive and so can metal working tools. Work done is mostly free and as favours for friends etc. Like the recording work is.

I work as a professional Tech at a commercial TV studio complex and before a company shake up was also the presentation and news site with OB facilities.

... even then I hate the word Pro ... what is Pro anyway?
some of my most respected mentors might be considered amateurs.
These people include musicians and techs and software writers that do what they do for fun while earn money else where ... exceptionally skilled people. I would never treat them as less then Pro ... professional ???


I have no wife or kids and am basically healthy with no debt.
I have no life.
I live eat and breath video, audio and music and the equipment that goes with it.

it's that simple
and
it's all good
8)

Reggie Thu, 07/14/2005 - 16:07
Ah, so that's your story. I had been wondering if there was something you sold that I could in some small way promote because you are a cool and most helpful dude. 8-)


In my opinion, one is considered a "professional" at something if they earn money doing it. "Acting like a professional" is another side of it, and is more of a behavioral/appearance thing.

Kev Thu, 07/14/2005 - 19:52
lol
:)
thanks jonnyc

Reggie wrote: In my opinion, one is considered a "professional" at something if they earn money doing it.
and here contains my point

I could earn a great deal of money and then there would be a TAX implication and an INSURANCE responsibility and so on.

I love working on and in the TV broadcast world.
In the past, the way to do this was by working for the company or for the national state broadcaster.
Things are different now and OUT-SOURCING has arrived.
I could go freelance.
As Union Delegate and long time employee, I feel the need to sty on as a permanent.

In the late 70's when I started music recording, a 4 track or 8 track real to real was all you could have and it was still well short of true professional recording.
Now we have a much cheaper entry into recording and there is a great deal of competition out there.

In my circles and at my age, none of my friends would consider paying anyone to record them. The entities that offer this service are largely less experienced and less capable then the circle of friends.
THEN
to cap if off, the fellows that are still in the game professionally are at the top of the heap and expensive.
If they we to record within the group they would feel compelled not to charge and we wouldn't ask that of them.

It does happen that these people visit at one of the home studios or during an owner lock out ... just as the record button is pressed and a fun evening is had by all.
When the album is release independently, the credits are usually nick names and aliases.

The most fun is at a live music venue when the Roadie Band gets up to play ... I'll even join in on that one and play some ACDC songs very badly ... with full production.
8) Kev the geek becomes Kev ... rock star 8)

Money rarely changes hands and usually it is favours in kind or instrument and gear swaps.
There is a couple of PA Amps and guitars I swear I've owned a few times now.


SO I guess you get 25 years of UN-professional experience in straight audio recording and live sound.
and
11 years of professional experience in Broadcast TV tech install and maintenance.

one day I may open the DIY Factory shop.

Kev Thu, 07/14/2005 - 22:55
no misunderstanding
your comments can also be pointed towards equipment and the makers. Particularly the boutique equipment makers.

Pro gets used to sell gear and services but what does it really mean ?

Even Pro Tools gets up my nose ... and I am an owner and user of Pro Tools. I much prefered the name Sound Tools which was it's original name before the programmer/personnel split that brought us Deck and then the upgrade to Pro Tools.
( I hope I have that story correct ... it was a long time ago )

The are some professionals with far more credibility than I will ever have, that still cringe when they hear Pro Tools.

anonymous Sat, 07/30/2005 - 10:43
Hey
I'm guna try and jump right back onto the question he asked :)
I've used ProTools LE and TDM with the same plugs on each. In all i haven't really heard much differance so it could be the case maybe you have differant versions of the plug-ins?
Also with TDM processing is through the DSP chips not the CPU as LE uses. I'm not a technical wiz but possibly if your running a ton of plugs in LE its having a hard time real time processing..
Have you tried audio-suite bounce of the track in LE?

EnricoDePaoli Thu, 08/11/2005 - 23:32
dont we have enough war everywhere ? Chill out here !

Hello Thiago, how are you ?

Let me try to give you MY opinion, as I have had MOTU 2408, DIGI 001 and now I use a ProTools HD system IN THE SAME STUDIO AS THE OTHER SYSTEMS mentioned above.

You asked if the difference is because of the 001 > MIX change ;

or the RTAS > TDM change.

I'd say BOTH. The systems are different. CLOCK is different. HARDWARE is different. DSP is different. ETC.

I should point out that, the difference IN SOUND QUALITY exists, but it is for sure MUCH SMALLER THAN THE DIFFERENCE IN PRICE. Needeles to say, ProTools HD has many other features, aside from quality hardware : TRACK COUNT and PLENTY OF NATIVE DSP just to name a couple.

ALWAYS trust what you hear.

Good seeing you here. All the best. and.... PEACE.

Enrico De Paoli
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Kev Fri, 08/12/2005 - 17:11
Re: dont we have enough war everywhere ? Chill out here !

EnricoDePaoli wrote: The systems are different. CLOCK is different. HARDWARE is different. DSP is different. ETC.

I'm not convinced that the maths behind the DSP is so different ... that will start the floating vers fixed arguments again.

If you are given a session with all tracks recorded
AND
you only use plugs that are written as equal for both RTAS and TDM
THEN
a simple bounce to disk is likely to sound the same when played of the resultant CD written by the same software ... Toast for example
note: careful attention to plug delay compensation must be adhered to.

Ultimately this could be what the whole argument is all about.

I have not heard anything to prompt me to believe differently.

yes
hardware and clocks will make the system sound and record very differently

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