Hi Chris,

As you know I own a number of nice acoustics, including the Taylor 413ce ltd. may I suggest in your considerations, also a Gibson studio and an Ovation. I own a 76 Ovation Balladeer. The tonal balance of Ovations are renowned.

Played almost exclusively by people like Glenn Campbell, Melissa Ethridge and more. Although I have not done mine justice on recording compared to your abilities, I'm sure you would be over the moon with the sound.

Tony

Makzimia, post: 436557, member: 48344 wrote: I own a 76 Ovation Balladeer. The tonal balance of Ovations are renowned.

I corrected your spelling of "Balladeer" in your quote above ( but not in your post).

I agree, they do sound nice ( I personally don't think they sound as good as a Taylor or Gibson, but they sound nice), but like all Ovations, they can be difficult to play while sitting, because of the bowl-shaped back.

Much of the tone will also be dependent upon the room, the mic, and the pre.... but I'm not saying anything here that Chris isn't already well aware of. ;)

I have two words for you Donny, guitar strap :p. But seriously I've been playing them since the 70s not personally had handling issues. One exception, the really shallow one I had for a bit. I like all my acoustics for various reasons. It's why we buy more than one lol.

I agree... I have more guitars than any drummer should be allowed to have. ;)

guitars are like socks or underwear. we all have preferences. personally i like Martins. i never heard a Taylor i cared for (honkey and midrangeish). Jeff Larson was big on them when i was producing for him but i would always ask him, "Where's your Martin?"

an acquaintance that passed recently owned an international guitar business. he told me one time"Kurt, there are three types of guitars. Martin's, Gibson’s and Fender's. Everything else is an also ran." God bless Bob November.

I've played many different guitars both live and in the studio in my time, but have recorded other guitarists playing a huge number of different makes and models. I usually play a Martin on stage, but prefer to record Taylors.

I recently went to music store that has a really nicely stocked acoustic department. I was looking for something mid-priced (with a pickup sysytem) that I could donate to a church for live performance. I was pleasantly surprised by how many of them sounded really good acoustically, before plugging them in. I was very impressed with the PRS acoustic's tone and playability, and after playing everything they had under $1k, I left with a reasonably priced Martin dreadnaught. Acoustically it was very warm and well balanced and the electronics did all of that justice.

I've played some incredibly nice Taylors and Martins, but if you're laying out that kind of cash you would want to play it before you bought it. And if you're going to a big store, play them all and you might find a gem by someone else. I've heard and played some great Alvarez, Yamaha, Guild, Takamine too over the years.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
Update,
Between the Taylor, Martin, Gibson dealers here I haven't found a Taylor I've liked so far but I found two others (both spruce and mahogany) I like a lot.

1. Martin Grand Performance
2. Morgan Dreadnought
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   The Martin was close in feel and size to my last Taylor with electronics. The Morgan is without electronics.
   I'd rather not pay for electronics and add that expense into the build.
   I've never played a Morgan before. It was beautiful.
   Apparently Morgan is someone who used to build for Larrivee . I've don't like Larrivee, owned one before, and this is not anything like a Larrivee so kudo'd for Morgan. They are built in Canada.

   I want this guitar to play a bit live but more for recording. I've always used smaller bodied, spruce top, mahogany body guitars for recording so my question is, Dreadnaught's are known to be more prone to boomy, less "balanced" tone?
   I love this Morgan guitar.. I will be picking and strumming. This has to do it all for me.

   What are your thoughts on Dreadnaught's for recording a (mix of picking and strumming)?

audiokid, post: 436775, member: 1 wrote: Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
Update,
Between the Taylor, Martin, Gibson dealers here I didn't find a Taylor I liked here but I found two (both spruce and mahogany) that I liked a lot. Martin Grand Performance and a Morgan Dreadnought.

The Martin was close in feel and size to my last Taylor and had electronics, the Morgan was without electronics. I'd rather not pay for electronics and see that expense go into the build.
I've never played a Morgan before. It was beautiful.
Apparently Morgan is someone who used to build for Larrivee . I've don't like Larrivee, owned one before, and this is not anything like a Larrivee so kudo'd for Morgan. They are built in Canada.

I want this guitar to play a bit live but more for recording. I've always used smaller bodied, spruce top, mahogany body guitars for recording so my question is, Dreadnaught's are known to be more prone to boomy, less "balanced" tone?
I love this Morgan guitar.. I will be picking and strumming. This has to do it all for me.

What are your thoughts on Dreadnaught's for recording a (mix of picking and strumming)?

i have never had issues recording dreadnought's. i mic them @ the 12th fret, pointed away from the sound hole. i never mic the sound hole. if i need more lows, i'll put a mic on the lower bout.

i agree about the electronics. they get old and fail. if i needed a guitar with electronics, i would get an inexpensive one with plywood sides. they feed back less. i still lean towards Martins. better resale but i agree there are plenty of nice guitars that aren't name brand.

are they both new?

Kurt Foster, post: 436778, member: 7836 wrote: are they both new?

Yes, both new and close in price. Morgan a few hundred more. I can't find any used acoustic so far. But wow... the Morgan acoustic is amazing.

Kurt Foster, post: 436778, member: 7836 wrote: i have never had issues recording dreadnought's. i mic them @ the 12th fret, pointed away from the sound hole. i never mic the sound hole. if i need more lows, i'll put a mic on the lower bout.

I was thinking this too. The sound of the Morgan is fuller and the neck is marginally better. Its definitely more inspiring to me.

Man, can't stop thinking about it. Since I lost my Taylor, I feel like a lost puppy or a kid without his blanket lol. I haven't been without an acoustic guitar for 40 years.

I have a lead on a used 814ce.

Check this out, pretty well done:

audiokid I'm positive it's the fact I listened on iPhone speakers, but with exception of the short scale guitar and one other, sounded very similar. Because of the player during first part being spot on with his notation. I expected, even on iPhone to hear slightly more low mid and upper lows as we hit the 800 series. I've played them in store too.

I have to say, personally, my purchase of the 413ce ltd was still a great purchase for that style of guitar. If you can get the newer 814 for a good price of course, worth getting.

Just my thought. I refer back to my statement of why I have more than one acoustic, lol.

Makzimia, post: 436922, member: 48344 wrote: slightly more low mid and upper lows

I agree as well. I noticed the 814ce sounding more open and fuller. I'm reading this improvement is partly do to the rosewood back and sides and some construction.
I do love Taylor guitars.

I can't try this 814 as its 2000 miles away but could return it. Looking at the top grain, its looks pretty nice, what do others think? Its not overly wide grain near the bridge, outer grain looks nice. Grain wise.... Thoughts? Looks like pieces. hmm.
Reading up on acoustic guitar wood grains, http://www.frets.co…

I could never afford this is a $10,000 martin, but its fun to use it as an example. Notice the grain on this gem. Nice. :love:

audiokid, post: 436927, member: 1 wrote: I can't try this 814 as its 2000 miles away but could return it. Looking at the top grain, its looks pretty nice, what do others think? Its not overly wide grain near the bridge, outer grain looks nice. Grain wise.... Thoughts? Looks like pieces. hmm.
Reading up on acoustic guitar wood grains, http://www.frets.co…

Chris, rear of sound board behind bridge, middle doesn't look as it should FYI.

Makzimia, post: 436929, member: 48344 wrote: Chris, rear of sound board behind bridge, middle doesn't look as it should FYI.

What do you see?

audiokid, post: 436930, member: 1 wrote: What do you see?

Initial look seems like a possible repaired wooden fracture.

The whitish line down the centre?

Yep

Look at this top on this D-28.

Makzimia, post: 436933, member: 48344 wrote: Yep

me thinking you might be correct.

The video session with the different Taylors was interesting. If I were just a guitarist and not a recording engineer, I would indeed want to hear what the different models sounded like under identical recording conditions. However, as a recording engineer first and a guitarist second, I was itching to change the type and positioning of the mics for each guitar tried in order to find the optimum for that particular instrument. I've never yet had two guitars where the same microphone positions were the best for each instrument, even two of the same model.

I'm a big fan of Cole Clark guitars http://www.coleclar…

The guy who started this company was with Maton, another Australian company for 25 years before starting Cole Clark.

The make a great quality, great sounding instrument.

The pic below is a pair of CCFL2EC-BB-AE – Bunya top with 100% sustainable timber.

nice!

Interesting how they fit the neck. I didn't know this about gloss finishes as well. Excellent look into their build. Thanks for sharing this Sean.

Boswell, post: 436939, member: 29034 wrote: The video session with the different Taylors was interesting. If I were just a guitarist and not a recording engineer, I would indeed want to hear what the different models sounded like under identical recording conditions. However, as a recording engineer first and a guitarist second, I was itching to change the type and positioning of the mics for each guitar tried in order to find the optimum for that particular instrument. I've never yet had two guitars where the same microphone positions were the best for each instrument, even two of the same model.

So true, but that being said, meaning if you were tracking an 814ce vs a 214ce vs a dreadnought like the Morgan I mentioned, "mic placement" and some messing around... it would or should all end up relatively close enough?

I failed to mention it, but of course still have my 30 year old Maton. Does need some TLC though. Denver was bad for it in the mid 90s. Still very playable though, sounds great.

audiokid, post: 436984, member: 1 wrote: So true, but that being said, meaning if you were tracking an 814ce vs a 214ce vs a dreadnought like the Morgan I mentioned, "mic placement" and some messing around... it would or should all end up relatively close enough?

That's not my philosophy, I'm afraid. I may be old-fashioned, but getting the best out of an instrument is both a challenge and a reward when it happens.

I was recording a guitarist who is quite well-known locally, and he came in saying "I tell you what microphone to use and where to put it." "Fine", I said, "I'll put up your microphone exactly where you want it plus a couple of mine where I want them." He reluctantly agreed, and I spent 10 minutes or so shuffling microphones around. The session went OK and I got good recordings from him and the other players. He was pleased with how his playing turned out in the result, and sent me a message to say "...it's great when engineers just do what I suggest." I hadn't the heart to tell him that his mic track was not used in the final mix.

Boswell you're too nice Bos, I would have still told him :). I have so little experience at Mic placement on guitar so far. I have always DI connected up until recently. I will be paying more attention to what happens, once I have all my gear here and have settled in our new house :).

Boswell, post: 436989, member: 29034 wrote: That's not my philosophy, I'm afraid. I may be old-fashioned, but getting the best out of an instrument is both a challenge and a reward when it happens.

Indeed.(y)

audiokid, post: 436984, member: 1 wrote: so true, but that being said, meaning if you were tracking an 814ce vs a 214ce vs a dreadnought like the Morgan I mentioned, "mic placement" and some messing around... it would or should all end up relatively close enough?

could been said better to discuss this part more in depth :)

Boswell, post: 436939, member: 29034 wrote: However, as a recording engineer first and a guitarist second, I was itching to change the type and positioning of the mics for each guitar tried in order to find the optimum for that particular instrument. I've never yet had two guitars where the same microphone positions were the best for each instrument, even two of the same model.

Hypothetically, using the optimum mic placement, how sonically close could the 3 different guitars I mentioned end up then?

Boswell, post: 436588, member: 29034 wrote: I've played many different guitars both live and in the studio in my time, but have recorded other guitarists playing a huge number of different makes and models. I usually play a Martin on stage, but prefer to record Taylors.

In other words, I come into your studio and would prefer to use the Morgan Dreadnought over the Taylor 814ce, how close could you get either guitar then?
What would you do to get the Dreadnought closer to say the Taylor?

audiokid, post: 437001, member: 1 wrote: Hypothetically, using the optimum mic placement, how sonically close could the 3 different guitars I mentioned end up then?

It all depends on what the goals are. There could be (a) get the best out of an instrument when heard solo, (b) get a tonality that mixes best with other instruments in the session, (c) make the guitar sound like a different instrument (make or model).

audiokid, post: 437001, member: 1 wrote: In other words, I come into your studio and would prefer to use the Morgan Dreadnought over the Taylor 814ce, how close could you get either guitar then? What would you do to get the Dreadnought closer to say the Taylor?

What you are asking about is option (c) ignoring the other two. My personal way of going about things is that if a musician comes into the studio clutching a Morgan and says he wants it to sound like a Taylor I would say I'll get the best sound out of your instrument, but if you want it to sound like a Taylor, come in with a Taylor.

Other recording engineers may operate differently.

Boswell or to whomever.

Assuming no Taylor is available.
I've not recorded a dreadnought but one of the main attributes to that body style hear it to have an extended low end to a Taylor. To get the dreadnought to sit in a mix closer to a Taylor then, would you HPF tracking or ITB ? How would you approach to get that balance closer to a Taylor? What mic choices, pre come to mind? What is it about a Taylor that so many people like about them for recording?

PS, how much do you rely on the acoustic guitar electronics to achieve your sound these days? Which acoustic guitar brands have the better pickups?

audiokid, post: 437004, member: 1 wrote: Assuming no Taylor is available.
I've not recorded a dreadnought but one of the main attributes to that body style hear it to have an extended low end to a Taylor. To get the dreadnought to sit in a mix closer to a Taylor then, would you HPF tracking or ITB ? How would you approach to get that balance closer to a Taylor? What mic choices, pre come to mind? What is it about a Taylor that so many people like about them for recording?

Well, as far as dreadnoughts are concerned, there lies both the beauty and the difficulty. I love playing my Martin dreadnought on stage, with or without PA. But I have a real problem with recording it, whether it's me playing or whether I lend it to a another player. I have not found a combination of microphone type(s) and positioning that gets good results every time, primarily because of the sound hole boom. I have to faff about moving mikes here and there, putting extra rugs down, re-siting the gobos and still not achieving the necessary sonic quality in the recording that I can get first time when someone sits down with a Taylor. Conversely, there are very few live gigs where I would prefer to be playing a Taylor, and most of those are ones you would call recording sessions with an audience.

As far as tracking goes, I never engage HPF on recording a guitar microphone. I want the full range to work with using shelving EQs and other tools at the mix stage, and a rough HP roll-off with its attendant phase shifts works against this.

I'll never forget the time I was setting up for a regular performer with a Martin dreadnought (not mine) and forgot to check the capsule on the SDC I put up. I couldn't believe the low end I was getting, and it was not just boom. I went round checking things, and found that I still had an omni capsule fitted to the microphone from the last session with a piano I had used it on. I had to decide whether to leave the omni there or re-fit the cardioid capsule. In the end, I did change it back, as some of the other tracks I had recorded previously with the cardioid were going on the same CD, and it would have been too much of a jolt to have a mixture. However, it taught me something about recording acoustic guitars that I didn't know.

Chris - I'd consider contacting Michael Dunn --- master builder and instructor of the guitar building program he started at Douglas College in 1983 -- He virtually trained almost every single builder of note and repute that came from the west coast and beyond - enormous influence world-wide. If you are looking for a specific guitar he might be able to direct you to or recommend several builders that meet your needs and budget. I bought my Concert classical guitar off a student of his back in 1990 - it's the finest guitar I ever played and the most cherished guitar I own. It still smells sweet from the hand made french polish that was applied to it. This student was one of his best but he could not find a buyer for the instrument at the time because he had used some birds eye maple as accents on the bridge and the binding - and if you know classical guitarists - they are so bound by tradition that they turned their nose up at the guitar for that reason. I was a classical guitar performance major at scooped it up in a heartbeat. The point being there are instruments of inconceivable quality out there just dying for a buyer that literally blow most guitars out of the water given the time put into them.

Ya, great points. Thanks. I'd love to see your guitar too! Its sounds wonderful. Could you take a pic and post it?

Here are a few shots. It's just an amazing guitar - 26 years old - my concert guitar from back in the day. You can see the binding is using birdseye --- that's the equivalent of painting racing stripes on it for classical players who are so bound to tradition (or were) that they just wouldn't pay for it. I can only imagine the 100's of hours that went into it's construction - the woods are exquisite.

My point was, particularly with handmade guitars and here on the Westcoast of BC - there are some real gems out there by unknown but very well trained and pedigreed builders that have instruments that should be valued in the 1000's of dollars (based on time, materials, and love/quality) that they just can't sell - and if you can find one you'd get enormous bang for buck.

In 1990 I had about 4K in my pocket to spend if necessary for my "concert" guitar and had guitars brought in for me to try at Rufus from some top builders and they were just not good enough --- way too much money for way too little. his guitar should have cost twice what I had (8k?) Instead I paid around 1200. Today I could not put a price on it - it's inconceivable to me.

Another thing to consider when testing guitars is how much they will change and open up (if the soundboard is good) as you play them in. They need to be played. After long periods of inactivity, I love experiencing how this particular guitar becomes reborn as I log playing time on it. Just a wonderful experience.

Very nice :). Love the neck joint. Beautiful. Very interesting looking bridge.

audiokid, post: 436555, member: 1 wrote: I owned the Taylor 314CE for years and passed it off to my daughter. I need a new Taylor or something comparable to be able to earn some extra income. I don't really want the electronics. I'd much rather have nothing inside the box.
That being said, I have been considering the 414CE for some time because I've read its a choice studio acoustic. I also read the Taylor GC8 is really nice too. The slotted peg system in intriguing.

I'm still undecided.

Or, what do you recommend for acoustic guitars?

audiokid
hey Chris,

did you ever get a guitar? i'm asking because i just met a guy who worked (works) for Taylor and he's going to rent my shop to start a guitar building business. he's got babies and anything else you might want. basically the same guitar as a Taylor. he showed me two of them and they are beautiful. same guitar (quality) at 1/3rd the cost.