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Cubase saving issue

Greetings everyone. Recently I have been very happy with my recording and diving more into how inserts and FX Sends work well with Cubase. Many years ago I recorded 3 albums worth of songs but had a issue with the saving them so they are now lost. Now I'm older and wiser with better equipment I have decided to make sure I save the project. Now I'm not sure who or what is at fault but I did copy and paste my folders to another hdd for safe keeping (nothing deleted just copied) and Windows 10 updated. The next day I went on and it's like half of my tracks have gone and I have 31 projects on the go and not only that, but some of my projects were missing files but they were unrelated to that song (that is probably more confusing to me). I will break things down because I don't want to dribble on and become more confusing.

When I was saving my projects I was just pressing save as (name of song) and then loading up my default project for another song then pressing save as again. I did realise that I needed to use backup up project so I did this for all of my songs in separate folders. Could they have got messed up?

I'm currently redoing my songs since I have lost weeks of work (inserts, FX Sends some guitar parts) and I have done one folder and saved everything in their own folder inside that one using back up project and then pressing save. Is that the correct method and does pressing save, save to that project now?

I'm currently using Cubase Artist 8.5 and my problems above were less depressing because I can load the Inserts using preset manager. Can this be done with the FX Sends or do I have to keep loading them up individually?

I apologise for such a long post and I appreciate any help given.

Jamie.

Comments

pcrecord Fri, 01/11/2019 - 11:47
You have to be very carefull to set the recording path (audio path) before you start to record anything.
I you should to use save as, to another location, you also need to specify the path of the files and if they need to be moved or copied.
I don't own Cubase but I'm sure most DAWs work the same.
Of course if you are using external hardware effects, I suggest you make a print of the return signal and take note of the adjustments if you ever want to change something..

Hope some Cubase users will shine in with more precise recommendations.

jamie Lofts Fri, 01/11/2019 - 12:59
Just a quick update on the missing file. I loaded a project up earlier and several tracks unrelated to the one I was using were missing. The fix to this problem is.....
Load the project up and cancel the window that pops up for the missing files. press on Media at the top and press Open pool window (Alternative is to press Ctrl+P). Now look at the names of all the tracks and if none match the project you are working on, delete them. I can only assume they will have a X anyway since the ones I was looking for did. Now when I open that project up, it does not pop up with missing files. At least that is one issue down and I can only assume it's down to my reckless saving and using the same project. :unsure:

kmetal Fri, 01/11/2019 - 15:39
I do a save as, after important changes, and every hour or so. I also backup to a secondary drive at the end of a session. Usually i back to to an external drive as well. Now the cloud too.

Its important to note that theres a differnce between save as, and saving a copy of the entire project. Save as saves just the new data, saving a copy saves the entire project.

kmetal Fri, 01/11/2019 - 16:28
We all learn things the hard way sometimes. I know i have.

Just to clarify, i work from the save as, the last one i saved, when i open up a project. Ill do save a copy, when saving the project to a drive to move it. Generally i drag and drop the entire project folder for regular backups.

jamie Lofts Fri, 01/11/2019 - 16:43
kmetal, post: 460157, member: 37533 wrote: We all learn things the hard way sometimes. I know i have.

Just to clarify, i work from the save as, the last one i saved, when i open up a project. Ill do save a copy, when saving the project to a drive to move it. Generally i drag and drop the entire project folder for regular backups.

Can you confirm that if I load the project I backed up and then work on it and save it, it will save direct to that? I'm not convinced that the save function goes direct if you load up outside the backed up project. I may just use that for piece of kind so I know where all my audio is going. Just out of curiosity, do you know if you can save and load the FX Send like you can with the Inserts? Do you just back up your music on a separate hdd or each project separately on a disc? Just trying to find what's best all round tbh.

kmetal Fri, 01/11/2019 - 18:23
jamie Lofts, post: 460159, member: 51509 wrote: Can you confirm that if I load the project I backed up and then work on it and save it, it will save direct to that?

Im not a cubase user, but i have used it, and most others. As far as i know they all work the same. If you load a project, then save (not save as, which you rename it) then the changes will be saved to the open project. This includes any new audio added to the project. This means next time you open the project it will be as it was upon last save.

The advantage to save as, is since your saving it as a new session name, if you dont like the changes, you can revert back to a previous save point.

So song 1mixA is a mix you like but the vocals are too low... You open it up save as song 1mixB and make your changes. If yoy get carried away and do a bunch of things tbat leave you scratching your head the next day, you csn simply open up song 1a again, save as song 1mixC, and adjust the vocals.

One thing to keep in mind is if you added vocal harmonies (new audio) to song 1mixB, and revert back to mixA because you dont like the other changes you made, you'll have to import the audio into mixA, because it was saved at a point in time before you recorded the audio. However anything saved after you added the harmonies, mixC mixD mixE, will contain the audio from mixB. Save as is like a restore point in time, or when you are playing a video game and start from a certain point in the level after dying instead of the beginning.

All of your audio should by default be in the audio files folder, which is usually created automatically in tbe songs main folder when a new project is created. This is usually all saved in your audio drive, not the drive with your programs and windows. It is possible to tell most programs where to save the audio, but tbe default location is typical.

jamie Lofts, post: 460159, member: 51509 wrote: Just out of curiosity, do you know if you can save and load the FX Send like you can with the Inserts? Do you just back up your music on a separate hdd or each project separately on a disc?

Not sure about cubase specifically. Generally no, the effects sends are saved as part of the session file, mixA mixB ect. You can save the pluggin settings as you would on an insert, but im dont know that you can save the stack or group. Not sure on that. I attribute the sends to being part of the session data.

I backup the sessions, which includes the session data, and audio, and any other files like pluggin settings, rough mixes ect, to an internal backup, external backup, clouds, and (when setup) two NAS drives. I will also be archiving to blue ray as well. Before i worked professionally, i had no saving convention, and have a mess of ten years of projects, and some ill never recover. Even now i need to gather 6 years of audio from the studio, but it is at least organized. So i feel your pain.

My saving convention now is:

Song/date/letter

So MetalSong010419a, MetalSong010419b, ect. And i save any mixdowns under the same name so when i burn a cd if MetalSong010419c sounds best, i can start from that session and make changes.


For long term archiving, it is not a bad idea to render each audio file individually into one long waveform (ie no edits), soloed, and without effects. You can also print the effects busses, and each audio file with effects.

This way in 5 years when cubase 80 cant open the session, or you pluggins no longer run, you can simply import all your full lenght audio files to the begginning of a new session, and everything will be lined up.

Ill ususlly consolidate/render the tracks like that when im done editing and recording, and just mixing. This way im not worried about losing fades, accidentally sliding an audio clip, and the computer doesn't need to recall 3 million little audio snippets, just full length tracks. So even if a track is 3 min of silence because its hand claps at tbe outro, its a full lenght audio file, so its always at tbe right place on tbe timeline.

jamie Lofts Sat, 01/12/2019 - 03:11
That is some very good information and I certainly thank you for that. In my head I figured it out but I certainly needed someone to confirm a lot of things. You have actually helped me more in one post than Steinberg and Gearslutz have in the last 3 years. It is hard to find a site that...1. People will reply to you. 2. People don't jump on thier high horse and make themselves sound better than everyone else. I have always said before, it's not about the money spent or the equipment you have, talent and your own imagination does the majority of the work. The FX Send issue is probably more out of laziness since I had 30 projects on the go but never set them up so I was looking for a quick fix. Maybe it's karma teaching me to record the correct way. Again, thank you for the nice informative reply.

pcrecord Sat, 01/12/2019 - 06:21
One thing to remember too is that softwares do not manages files all the same way. When you save as, some will propose to move or copy the files some will just keep the same location as a reference.

In the past with Sonar, I would start a project with a song and to retain all my pre-mix settings I would make a save as to another name (the next song to record). Then remove delete all objects and process to record new tracks..
This was going well with Cakewalk sonar but with MAGIX Samplitude, the recorded audio is retained even after recording new tracks. It's still there in the takes manager. So it you want to do comping, you have the other song's track in the way..
When I first saw that I deleted the takes from the takes manager and bam I just deleted the audio files of the other song.. I was in big trouble..
The best way I found is to create a template of my actual song, and start a new project based on the template.. Now it's clean as a whisle and ready to record !

jamie Lofts Sat, 01/12/2019 - 06:31
pcrecord, post: 460163, member: 46460 wrote: One thing to remember too is that softwares do not manages files all the same way. When you save as, some will propose to move or copy the files some will just keep the same location as a reference.

In the past with Sonar, I would start a project with a song and to retain all my pre-mix settings I would make a save as to another name (the next song to record). Then remove delete all objects and process to record new tracks..
This was going well with Cakewalk sonar but with MAGIX Samplitude, the recorded audio is retained even after recording new tracks. It's still there in the takes manager. So it you want to do comping, you have the other song's track in the way..
When I first saw that I deleted the takes from the takes manager and bam I just deleted the audio files of the other song.. I was in big trouble..
The best way I found is to create a template of my actual song, and start a new project based on the template.. Now it's clean as a whisle and ready to record !

I believe that was the issue I was having. Not sure if Windows updating caused the problem or it was something else? But one thing is for sure, tracks were deleted. it's not the end of the world and I have managed to get through all my tracks and load the Inserts and FX Sends to all 30 projects :( and now it is a case of going back through them all and mixing the levels and record any missing parts which is mainly Bass guitar. I'm now loading my tracks from the Project folder and pressing save when I have done working on it. So glad I'm off work for a week.

paulears Sun, 01/13/2019 - 02:22
I must admit I don't quite understand what you are doing. I suspect your confusion may come from having multiple projects open at the same time. Cubase savs the audio for the current project in it's audio folder nested in the project folder, but if you have multiple versions open, it's too easy to save to the wrong one. I rarely have more than one project open. I then do constant update 'save as', song 2018 v1, then next save as is song 2018 v2, and so on. The audio files go into the audio folder - same ones in use, no issues. Don't forget it's important to name the tracks early, or they have sequential numbering track01-01 or something that will be repeated in other projects, and if you get your folders mixed up, you will have dozens of tracks with the same name, and the using the pool to delete files can be dangerous, if you are deleting the wrong one.

To sumarise - if you are in your project folder, then save as with a new name does NOT remove anything, and the audio folder has the files for all the versions. I'll edit this in a minute and add a picture of what my screen looks like if this helps.
Attached files

jamie Lofts Sun, 01/13/2019 - 12:17
paulears, post: 460169, member: 47782 wrote: I must admit I don't quite understand what you are doing. I suspect your confusion may come from having multiple projects open at the same time. Cubase savs the audio for the current project in it's audio folder nested in the project folder, but if you have multiple versions open, it's too easy to save to the wrong one. I rarely have more than one project open. I then do constant update 'save as', song 2018 v1, then next save as is song 2018 v2, and so on. The audio files go into the audio folder - same ones in use, no issues. Don't forget it's important to name the tracks early, or they have sequential numbering track01-01 or something that will be repeated in other projects, and if you get your folders mixed up, you will have dozens of tracks with the same name, and the using the pool to delete files can be dangerous, if you are deleting the wrong one.

To sumarise - if you are in your project folder, then save as with a new name does NOT remove anything, and the audio folder has the files for all the versions. I'll edit this in a minute and add a picture of what my screen looks like if this helps.

I have not had multiple projects open at the same time. I work on one project and close Cubase and then load then next project. The issue is already resolved but the question afterwards was, why it did what it did? I did mention that all my saves were backed up into projects but i still managed to lose saves from my second hdd. I can only assume cubase didn't like something and reverted it all back to a later date. I just don't know. But I have also mentioned that I now using project folders only and only pressing save when I have done bits on that project. I will not be using save as again.

paulears Sun, 01/13/2019 - 14:50
I use save as all the time and Cubase does nothing odd at all and I certainly never shut it down between opening different projects. Have you tried opening your backup files? Are you absolutely sure you didn’t just not notice the save as destination was wrong? Save as is working perfectly on every version of Cubase I’ve used and for me, it’s an essential way of working so if you makes mistakes you can revert to older versions. I can’t see anything I can do to replicate what you describe?

jamie Lofts Mon, 01/14/2019 - 05:09
paulears, post: 460174, member: 47782 wrote: I use save as all the time and Cubase does nothing odd at all and I certainly never shut it down between opening different projects. Have you tried opening your backup files? Are you absolutely sure you didn’t just not notice the save as destination was wrong? Save as is working perfectly on every version of Cubase I’ve used and for me, it’s an essential way of working so if you makes mistakes you can revert to older versions. I can’t see anything I can do to replicate what you describe?

I made a backup on my 2nd hdd and that was messed up too. Both hdd's with projects had reverted to 4 weeks ago and I also had the missing file problem. No files or folders were moved or renamed. It also happened after 2 things, Windows 10 update and a virus scan. Now if those are related or just good timing, I have no idea. I have never had this issue in the past so we all could guess what the issue is unless someone's had the same issue. I would rather work on the project folder and hit save after that issue and then I know for sure where all my audio is being saved and where the project link is. I just hope this never happens to anyone else because it isn't fun setting up Inserts, FX sends and Missing audio on 30 different projects.

paulears Mon, 01/14/2019 - 05:24
What I don't understand is how Cubase can delete files in random folders on random drives. The only way to do this I know when you want to delete files is through the pool, and there are no built in tools I know of to do this. PLUS - you save command rather than save as simply saves, without the prompt for a new filename, so I'd be wary at thinking it a cure. I'm travelling today, so can't check, but could the cleanup function be running? This would allow deletion of what it believes are unused files if you are sharing the project audio file with totally different projects? Only thing I can come up with?

pcrecord Mon, 01/14/2019 - 05:28
paulears The suspicion I had was that if you make save as to another location, do cubase propose to move or copy the audio files or not ?
I know that with Sonar, that was the case, it ask what you want to do with the files, reference from the actual location or make copie or move..
If cubase doesn't do that, saving to another drive may only save the project file and not the audio files.. no ?
Just trying to help ! ;)

jamie Lofts Mon, 01/14/2019 - 05:39
pcrecord, post: 460178, member: 46460 wrote: paulears The suspicion I had was that if you make save as to another location, do cubase propose to move or copy the audio files or not ?
I know that with Sonar, that was the case, it ask what you want to do with the files, reference from the actual location or make copie or move..
If cubase doesn't do that, saving to another drive may only save the project file and not the audio files.. no ?
Just trying to help ! ;)

I'm with you on that. If you load a project using the file you made from 'save as' I don't think Cubase knows where to save the audio so it may make duplicates or maybe even record over. Either way, that audio would become the new recording and take priority. But if you load the project from the project folder (which includes Audio, images, track pictures and the project document) Cubase would/should load everything from that folder and 'save' should just save into that folder alone. I'm not risking using save as again. But, the problem I had may have been linked to something else but it is certainly looking like a issue with how I saved it. Does that explain missing files and reverting back? probably not but at least it's keeping me busy lol.

paulears Mon, 01/14/2019 - 05:54
I've got an old version on my MacBook, so just tried a test. Created a new project folder. got a random midi file in. Then I exported the project as an mp3. Tested loading it back in and inserted that mp3 into the song, and reserved (not save as).

Re-loading from empty all is well - two tracks, identical - one midi one mp3. Did a save as into a new project folder (test 2, rather than test). Song plays fine - BUT the audio file is NOT in the new folder, it is still in the other project folder not test 2. No copying of audio files took place. The only real option is on importing audio - where it gives you a copy option. More myseterious.

kmetal Mon, 01/14/2019 - 09:41
Save as is used to save an updated version of the current project. Saving as saves audio to the original projects audio files folder, regardless of where you save as too. So when you save as to a new location, all your saving to the new location is the Session File. This is your mixer settings ect. The session file in the new location is still recalling the audio files in the original location, because a new location patch for the audio has not been defined. For instance, i can drag a session file to the desktop, (a new location) and it will still open the project just the same, because the audio tracks folder its referencing has not changed. T
his is why if you have multiple songs in one project, you need to "save a copy as" (protools command) or similar, where you save a copy of the entire project, audio files folder and all, to a new location. This copy, from here on out will be independent of the original, so new session files, and audio will be saved in the new copied projects folder hierarchy. So if you only want to work on one song, and delete the rest of the songs audio from the copied session, the audio will remain in tact in the original project that contains multiple songs.

This is common when you track all the songs in the same session, then want to mix each song individually. You either save a copy and delete the unused audio, or you import each songs audio into a new session/project/location which has its own new set of session and audio folders.

jamie Lofts, post: 460176, member: 51509 wrote: It also happened after 2 things, Windows 10 update and a virus scan. Now if those are related or just good timing,

Many people report a lost files in a recent w10 update, i believe in late nov.

pcrecord, post: 460183, member: 46460 wrote: That's what I suspected..

Good call bro!

@jamie Lofts
I hope you dont get detterred from save as, as you gain a better understanding of what its saving and where. We all rely upon it daily from the project to world class level. Otherwise there is no way to revert back to previous mix settings (unless you have a mixer snapshot) and also with only one saved copy then if that file gets corrupted or moved or deleted, your entire session is gone, and you have to peice the audio files back together, redo tbe mixer settings and edits.

kmetal Tue, 01/15/2019 - 10:59
Its generally good practice for an audio computer to both Disable Windows Updates, and only enable the internet when yoy need it. I used to keep a shortcut on my desktop for the network connection, and simply let click and enable/disable as needed. Takes no time.

Windows updates can be both unecssesary, and undo the settings you made for windows optimization.

jamie Lofts Tue, 01/15/2019 - 11:06
kmetal, post: 460192, member: 37533 wrote: Its generally good practice for an audio computer to both Disable Windows Updates, and only enable the internet when yoy need it. I used to keep a shortcut on my desktop for the network connection, and simply let click and enable/disable as needed. Takes no time.

Windows updates can be both unecssesary, and undo the settings you made for windows optimization.

it literally just updated again. The problem is that Microsoft tend to force them on you. In the past I have disabled them only to find they still managed to update the system. I once knew a work around but it's a lot or arsing around in the reg files.

kmetal Tue, 01/15/2019 - 11:54
jamie Lofts, post: 460194, member: 51509 wrote: it literally just updated again. The problem is that Microsoft tend to force them on you. In the past I have disabled them only to find they still managed to update the system. I once knew a work around but it's a lot or arsing around in the reg files.

Are you running W10 pro?

I was able to completely disable updates in w10 pro without any registry edits, using the task manager>services tab, and the standard slider via i believe the system icon / window. The window that comes up when you search in the search bar for windows update.

jamie Lofts Wed, 01/16/2019 - 01:34
kmetal, post: 460197, member: 37533 wrote: Are you running W10 pro?

I was able to completely disable updates in w10 pro without any registry edits, using the task manager>services tab, and the standard slider via i believe the system icon / window. The window that comes up when you search in the search bar for windows update.

Yes, since it was first released. A lot of people complained about it when Win10 was released. I think a lot of it was to do with all these people who like to relish on theories and the government spying on us lol. I'll be honesty, I haven't tried it in a long time so they might have sorted it. But I do know when it was turned off, updates would still happen. Its one of those keep them on and keep everything updated but risk something messing up or turn them off and risk something else messing up. But I will try it off and let you know if it does update again.

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