I am hearing that more artist are recording in home studios instead of commercial recording studios. Also a high quality of sound on current CDs' seem not to be one of consumers major concerns. With that being said what direction do you feel the recording engineer position is going? What are your own personal experience, or what you have heard.
Comments
Originally posted by Nolan Venhola:
Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:
I can tell you from experience you cannot be a recording engineer and a performer at the same time so you may have to add to that the services of an independent engineer to record you in your own space which will again run up the cost(s)
Bullplop.... puuuuure bullplop.
DAW + Wireless mouse + Decent sized monitor = recording yourself.
1. Setup up tracks
2. Sit at instrument, or put on instrument
3. Put on headphones
4. Click record with mouse
and repeat. I don't see any issue here. I record all my own material. Drums, bass, guitar, vocals, synth, whatever.
If you have the skills you don't need a separate engineer, they just get in the way and hamper your creativity. If you feel you can do it all - do it.
I have found after many years (30+ years in the music business) that the delegation of work is very efficient when it comes to recording. Engineers do the physical aspects of the recording and musicians play and sing. Having another set of ears while doing the recording is also a plus. If you want to do all your own song writing, your own recording, play all the instruments, do your own mastering, do the artwork and produce the CD then do it.
As to creativity it always helps to have others listening and collaborating with you and maybe catching some things that you did not hear for what ever reason and maybe making some suggestions as to ways to play things differently or better. Music is a collaborative art and always has been. I don't see that this has changed for the years.
Musicians who play all the instruments for their songs by themselves do not get the benefits of having input from others and no one that I know plays all the instruments with an equal level of musicianship. If you are one of those rare individuals that can play bass, guitar, drums, keyboards and sing then you are in a very small minority and if you can do all of these equally well while still doing a good job of recording then you are in an even smaller minority.
I have been at sessions with friend were they were attempting to do it all as you seem to say you are doing. When you are trying to concentrate on so many things all at the same time you are not putting your attention where it matters most and in your case I assume that your attention should be on playing your instrument.
Possibly you should leave the recording process to someone else who can worry about levels and the physical aspects of the recording process while you concentrate on making the music
Again if you feel you want to do it all for what ever reason then do it. It is your equipment and your songs so you have every right to do what you want with them.
This thread had been very helpful to me. Thanks Thomas for your dose of reality. As I've written earlier, I'm in the situation of decideing whether to do it myself or go to a studio or 1/2 and 1/2. The clincher is where do I spend the $?
Yes I would like to have a nice home studio and learn the art of recording since I enjoy the little I've done so far.
Yes it would be great to go to a studio and have all of that taken care of for me.
And yes I want to get the best results for the songs I've poured my heart, soul, time, and brain, into.
Can I have it all? Not financially. Therefore I guess I need to really take a look at reality. Am I currently skilled enough as an engineer to get pro results? No. Do I have a good ear and a drive to learn? Yes. Will tracking it and producing it myself do the music justice? I can't say honestly that it would. Do I run the risk of dumping money into recording at a pro studio and not liking the results? Sure. But, is there a greater likely hood I will like the results more than if I would have done it one my own? Yes.
I know i'm not really contributing much here, rather, mostly thinking out loud. For those of you that have the knowledge and experience to get good recordings, than doing it yourself is probably fine, fun, and rewarding. For those of us that have been mislead to believe that you can get a pro studio and thus pro results in your home these days simply because you can get "pro gear" (read: prosumer) for a fraction of what it cost a decade ago, it can be frustrating trying to learn it all on your own. Am I glad I purchased the 001 and have learned more than I ever knew existed about audio? Most definitely. But do I trust my tunes entirely to my own devices? Certainly not yet.
Additionally, all of the music that we like the most, our favorite band or artist, was made with a great deal of colaboration. Even the indie lo-fi stuff that can be really cool has some degree of colaboration at some point in the process. Even if you can do it all yourself, don't you owe it to your songs to see what other heights they can be taken to with the help of other creative minds?
ILS
sure people can do it themselves, and probably do it pretty well. The problem is that you limit yourself and your music to your ability, and not what it could be. You pick a drum loop not because it's the best, but because you have it or because it's what you can create. your bass line is what it is not because it's perfect for the song, but because that is what you are able to do. Your record sounds the way it does not because it's the perfect sound, but because that is what you can do. Someone mentioned the beatles earlier. To me, this is a perfect example of what a team can do verses what an individual can do. The sum is greater than the parts. Each had a "solo" career after the beatles but nothing was created that rivaled the colaboration. Don't be confused with what can be done and what should be done. Sure I can do everything too, but not well. My record may sound great, but the song, the arrangement, and the playing would only be what i'm capable of at that time, not what it could be had I hired great players and found a great song. I could build my own house too, but it could only be as good as my abilities allow, just because home depot sells all the tools I need for $199 doesn't mean that it's going to turn out great even though I know how to cut wood and nail. I could also make love to myself everyday but it's not the same as having a relationship with someone. It'll only be as good as my left hand will allow. We are living in a DIY world now and suffering greatness because of it. instead of delegating duties to the best person, we choose to take on the whole thing because we can, not because we should. We have bought into the hype of manufacturers that if you want it done right, do it yourself, we'll show you how. Just buy this and that and plug this in and bingo. see how easy it is. Now go play it for your friends and family and see what they think. Oh, they think your great! how supprising. Now go and design your CD and put it out there. You go and manufacture a 1000 cd's and what do you have left after a year, 900 because your friends and family bought 2 each. I see this EVERY DAY.
Originally posted by RecorderMan:
Well most of this thread has been about the hobby of recording.Accountng would be a perfect day job with recording as a second income.
Funny, that is the basically the course I've decided is right for me. I have a very good day job. If I can hang on for ten more years, I'll be 55, retired and finacially set. I'd been contemplating then what? If I still had my health at that point and could do want I wanted without worrying about pay, what would it be? Well,... I'm a techy. I like interacting with talented and creative people. I'm easy to get along with. I've got a pleasant voice and know the thrill of performing, but I don't have an ego pushing me to pursue fantasies of being a performer/entertainer that anyone would pay to hear/see. I'm a bit of a perfectionist - I not only believe in the adage that anything worth doing is worth doing well, I also know that I only feel deeply contented while in the pursuit of continual improvement. Hmmm... Then, our community choral group's director was constently complaining about being broke even though we seemed to have good ticket sales for our concerts, so I asked about our expenses. When I found out how much we were paying to rent sound equipment it struck me, why not make a one-time capital outlay and eliminate the recurring expense? Further, why not add the ability to record our concerts so we could add CD sales as an additional source of concert derived revenue? Then, finally it hit me, I might actually enjoy doing this, and other groups are likely in the same boat as our group. Why not go first class and compete with the commercial guys for the business of the other groups in the area? So my plan was formed. Go get good equipment. Gain experience as a hobbyist over the next decade and if I still enjoy doing it 10 years from now, pursue a larger geographic market after retirement. So, that's what I've done. It's working out well so far, and I will continue doing it.
Do I take business from the pro's in the area and get a slice of what was their market. Yep! Is their still be a need for the pro's? Yep! Will I be the cause of them closing shop? Well I certaintly won't the the single cause of that happening, but... Is life fair? Not always!
Over the years I have mainly listened to the big studio releases from artist like the beatles, Alice Cooper, and The Great Frank Zappa. But I chanced upon The residents one day and it turned my music head upside down. Each crappy track that I heard excited me more and more. I started BUYING every record I could find. {MP3S wouldnt do it, I needed the product). I was like a kid again. I didnt care if the sonic quality was good or bad, I just wanted the music. It opened the door on a whole range of B-Grade music like ween, Snakefinger and renaldo and the loaf. I have an old Art tataum tape that was recorded in the 30's. And I love it. Grant you, I would rather listen to Frank Zappa,s studio stuff over his Live bootleggs, but listening to frank live recorded thru someones Ghettoblaster still intrest me. Some music can be recorded in a cheap home studio and still not lose its integrity.
Weens four track release Pure Quava had a huge commercial release, Pushin up daisies,. But give me a million dollar studio, and I'll choose that above my DAW.
well i have to say i feel very fortunate to have been making a living doing this for about 20 years now. i get a lot of clients who tell me their horror stories of going to a lower priced studio and walking away not only displeased but completely disillusioned about the recording process because they worked with people who invested lot's of money for equipment but did not invest the time to learn how to use it and then were nasty to the clients on top of it all. i pick up about one client a month like this and the rest are all repeat business because service and quality is what i give them. i may not have the best gear in the world but i fully know how to use it to give them exactly what they want. that just comes with time and experience. i get a lot of people who want to intern at my place but once they're there they just want to get right into engineering and producing..... they already know it all. until i ask them to align the tape machine, one guy actually started to cry......lol. it seems that no one wants to start at the bottom anymore. just because you own a protools rig at home doesn't mean you know how to handle things in a professional environment. clients are a lot more forgiving at a home studio than a pro studio and a lot more demanding. and for good reason, they're paying more and of course they want everything. being able to deal with people is more than half the battle. that's why i think engineers will never fade out completely, it goes in cycles. yes thay can do it at home but you need input from others to get the best results. music is a collaborative effort. i say use the best of both worlds. go to a bigger studio to track the basics, take it home to work on your countless hours of overdubs and then go back to the studio to mix. that's usually a good combination that works for all. and never be afraid to ask questions....that's the only way to learn.
I don't think asking questions is THE only way. The things I know and learned is from watching and doing, over and over and over. Knowing how to make a client feel comfortable and important in their session is more than half the battle like you said. But that doesn't come from just being a nice guy, that comes from knowing what you are doing. it comes accross and things run smooth. If you don't know what you are doing, then you get threatened if people question you. The way I pick an assistant is not that they know everything because that changes by the day. It's what they do when confronted by things they don't know. These select few gifted individuals will make it because they want to. They can antisipate what they will need to know and do and take the inititive to learn it before it is asked of them. Whether it's by asking questions during some free time or picking up the manual and reading it or by doing it on their own during down time, before I ask them.
I think the days of going to one place to do the recording and mixing are past. A lot of the work we get in for mastering was tracked at home, mixed in a pro studio and comes here for the final mastering or was tracked at a studio with good acoustics and good microphones and then mixed at a personal studio with protools and then here for mastering.
The big thing for a successful business these days is to give the client what he or she wants at a reasonable rate and do what he cannot easily do him/herself. We get into a lot of coaching, especially with musicians that are just starting out, and find it rewarding and helpful to understand what the musician is feeling and what he or she needs to complete the project.
We generate many return clients because we really care about their projects and are not just attemping to better our bottom line. Many times we go to the recording studio with the client for the start of the final mixdowns and many times the cleints will bring in their material to us prior to final mixing to see if their are any problems that they will face later in the mastering. It is all part of our service.
Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
I don't think asking questions is THE only way. The things I know and learned is from watching and doing, over and over and over.
you're right, i misspoke. what i meant was don't feel intimidated to ask any questions. and yes watching and doing things over and over is how i learned and still do. i am lucky to have have an assistant that is going that extra mile now but the good ones aren't around too long and i dread the day i'm gonna have to replace him. having a good assistant kinda spoils you. temperment is also very important like you said and i couldn't agree more. my point was i don't think the recording engineer is dead just yet as long as we can re-invent ourselves we will survive and those who can't and are stuck in their ways may find a painful end. i do charge reasonable prices and get a lot of demo work, i'd say about 40% of my business and i think that's pretty good for a manhattan studio would like to get more but can only go so low with the price and don't want to frighten our bigger clients away either as they are quite loyal " Thank God" anyways have a great weekend all.
frank
Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:
We generate many return clients because we really care about their projects and are not just attemping to better our bottom line. Many times we go to the recording studio with the client for the start of the final mixdowns and many times the cleints will bring in their material to us prior to final mixing to see if their are any problems that they will face later in the mastering. It is all part of our service.
i wish i knew a mastering engineer i could sit with and pick his brain about mixes. that would make my job so much easier.....
Originally posted by sosayu2:
Originally posted by Thomas W. Bethel:We generate many return clients because we really care about their projects and are not just attemping to better our bottom line. Many times we go to the recording studio with the client for the start of the final mixdowns and many times the cleints will bring in their material to us prior to final mixing to see if their are any problems that they will face later in the mastering. It is all part of our service.
i wish i knew a mastering engineer i could sit with and pick his brain about mixes. that would make my job so much easier..... With Priority mail we are only a day or possibly two away from NY and you can pick my brain if you want to send me some stuff to listen to. We charge a minimum amount for this service and you can contact me off list for more info.
Hope this helps.
Typically I get into the fray after the debate is all but over. I think I can clearly see both sides of these issues. Plus I see a parallel with my other main vocation: I'm a jazz musician. I see guys, really great young musicians coming out of music schools, some of them I've taught, as I'm also an adjunct faculty member at a community college. I wonder where in the hell these guys are gonna go? How are they gonna make a living? Burger King I guess. Same thing with recording schools.
These times they are 'a different. They did done changed on us already and we ain't got out the way.
I record myself. It ain't easy. I also record other people, mainly, for a living. I got into it several years ago (12) when I had the choice to spend 10-15k making another record. Even though I had a tenuous record deal I saw the writing on the wall with my contract, as it was coming to a close. I could either sink my wade into paying another studio and lose it (as chances are I would'nt make my money back let alone making enough to invest in yet another record) or I could invest in myself, learn and record as many damned records as I damned well wanted! I argued with the band over this. They weren't spending the money, so the argument was rather moot. The money was mine. They didn't want me at the helm making a crappy sounding record. Now I had some experience. I'd been at the helm as producer for 4 records of my own and a few others I'd been a member of. Never set up a microphone or tweeked a console, besides my portastudio or Akai MG1212 or Performer 1.22 midi sequencer.
But I partnered with someone who had a little more engineering ability, but far less experience. It turned out OK. Could've been better, but it still sells to fans (I don't think I have any any more, but I used to!) and many stores still stock it world wide. There've been three others I did myself exclusively, as well as three others of a band I'm in and two other CDs for clients I recorded and mixed, and countless projects/demos. I'm looking for interns now, because it's really hard to do my own music myself. I miss having a band tell me when I suck! But I don't try to play everything myself. I hire musicians and play guitar, write the music and arrangements.
I think music is going to hell in a handbasket. But maybe that's just because I'm an old fogey. I've since learned another trade: engineering. People keep coming to me so I guess I can't be that bad.
I think it's important that people have the ability to do things themselves. You're either at cause or you're at effect. I'd rather be in the position to "cause" things and learn. I do think music suffers, but choice is a good thing. The industry just became too unwieldy. But maybe something good will eventually arise. Those with talent, perserverance and ability will take time and create something truly worthy.
Some of us sound too old and crusty talking about these young whippersnappers ruining the world as we know it. Yes, it's different. No, I don't see the time and effort to be excellent on a given instrument and craft as much. Everyone seems to be trying to do everything and the well's running on empty. But there's a glass half full too.
I can't help but think a few things:
- Everything always changes.
- Nothing ever changes.
- Great music will always be made by great talents (because nothing ever changes) but will never sound exactly like the great music that came before it (because everything always changes).
- you've got to row-oh-oll with the punches to get to what's real.
- i like cats (but not van halen)
cheers,
greg
:) It has been an interesting and enlightening weekend to say the least. We have some folk's visiting. A young man brought his MAC laptop, and plugged into my system to play some of his music. He had some of this and that software, and very nice samples. Watching for all the usual suspect recording boo boo's, I found none. In fact, when I threw on some classic outstanding recordings, they were running neck and neck on sound.
However, once again, everything has to do with tasteful and creative use of these programs, or you just get good sound loops and beats. I can see how this advance in software is effecting the industry, but if you are going to mix in miced instruments and vocals, good engineering is absolute, along with a good arrangement and producing.
I look at all my gear now and kinda get depressed. Things are changing so fast, but the fundamentals are always going to be present, and the knowledge and experience needed. It seems sometimes that the push for particular music styles advance a particular method from software, samplers, and loops. I can't see it being this way forever.
--Rick
this is exactly why i feel vey fortunate. yes i have pro tools but 80% of my clients record to analog 2" and then transfer to protools for editing and mixing. all i do is mic'ed instruments here. if they want to do a midi session then booking my place is a waste and too expensive for them. but if you want killer drums, gtr, vocals, piano, hammond etc. this is definately the place to be.
Originally posted by sosayu2:
...but if you want killer drums, gtr, vocals, piano, hammond etc. this is definately the place to be.
:) Good point! :D It's is so timley you mentioned all the killer stuff, when he played one particular song, it had a great (fast speed) Hammond & Leslie sample.
I said, "hey!...that Hammond is a nice touch" He said "Hammond?" I said "yea, that sample is a Hammond organ with a Leslie speaker" He said " oh!"...Someone had to do the sample! He thought it was just another effect added to his loops.
So I threw on some cool music with real Hammond happening..hee hee
--Rick
Audiogaff mentioned
you can always buy some DAW or outboard gear and re-mix it which is easier and cheaper than the tracking/recording part which requires much more skill to do well, more gear and a good room to do it in.
Well having assisted many mixers whose business it was to only mix big label records I must disagree. While the art of the recordist is one that takes time, great gear, and a great room (as well as something good to record) mixing takes years to truly get good at. Why do you think that's all these guys do is mix? Why labels are paying certain mixers over $10,000 a song and delaying projects release to ensure the right guy mixes it. Check out some CDs. See how often a different guy mixed it. And how many times have you heard a different mix for the single which blew away the original mix? I think you give these musicians a misguided view of what is possible.
:p:
Originally posted by slicraider:
Audiogaff mentioned
you can always buy some DAW or outboard gear and re-mix it which is easier and cheaper than the tracking/recording part which requires much more skill to do well, more gear and a good room to do it in.
Well having assisted many mixers whose business it was to only mix big label records I must disagree. While the art of the recordist is one that takes time, great gear, and a great room (as well as something good to record) mixing takes years to truly get good at. Why do you think that's all these guys do is mix? Why labels are paying certain mixers over $10,000 a song and delaying projects release to ensure the right guy mixes it. Check out some CDs. See how often a different guy mixed it. And how many times have you heard a different mix for the single which blew away the original mix? I think you give these musicians a misguided view of what is possible.
:p:
Lets face it. A quality recording is the sum of all the parts. The project has be done well from the start. The writing and playing have to be good, the recording and tracking have to be good, the mixdown has to be good and the mastering has be good for the CD to sound good. PERIOD. If you fall down in one of these areas the CD is not going to sound as good as it could have.
Too many people start out with the highest intentions then due to a big dose of the "cheaps" decide to either do it themselves or to find someone "cheap" to do the mixing or the recording or the mastering and then they wonder why their album does not have the magic and the sound of a top selling professional album.
In mastering I get a lot of people who want to do the final polishing of the album on the cheap and they say "we are out of money and time so could you master this album in a couple of hours and do the best you can with it" My answer is I will always attempt to do my best but you are asking me to do in 2 hours what normally would take 5 and the end results are not going to be as good.
When I get a project in that was well done from the beginning it is very easy to master. A tweak here and there and some minor eq changes and the album is done. Unfortunately what I get from many people is a project that is not yet ready for prime time but due to circumstance it has to be made ready for replication and I wind up doing a lot of sonic surgery to the project before I can master it. This is what takes the time and this is what people are unwilling to pay for.
I get a lot of people who tell me that the recording engineer "mastered" their album while he was doing the mixdown and now it doesn't sound good and what can I do to "fix it"? When I listen to the material I find that the recording engineer simply ran the whole mix though a Finalizer and squashed the heck out of their mix so their is nothing I can do with it. When I ask the person if they can get an unsquashed version they tell me that the master tapes don't exist anymore since they were using rented ADAT tapes or that the hard drive got erased when the project was over or that there was no automation on the console and the engineer never wrote down any of the setting so there is no easy way to recall the mix.
If you want a professional project do things like the pros do. Have backups of everything you do, make sure everything is documented, don't "rent" tapes and have the mixer do the mixing and don't have him or her try to master the project at the same time. Also learn to play your instrument and don't use Pro Tools to help you play in tune and on the beat. Think the project though from the start and don't start the project until you have the capital needed to do it correctly. (and have about 15% more ready because nothing ever comes in at or below budget) This is what it takes to do a PROFESSIONAL project. This is what it takes to be a professional. If you are doing this recording for a demo then by all means try and do it as inexpensively as you think you can away with and still have it sound good but when it is going to be sold to the masses then do the project correctly from the start. Think quality not quantity. If you can do a good job on six songs then only do six songs don't "pad" the album with 15 additional songs that are not ready for public consumption. Wait until the fist batch is well received, have more material waiting in the wings and do another album with new songs that you are polishing even as the first album is being sold.
Hope this helps
MTCW and FWIW
It's not impossible to track with very good results. When I started out doing it myself, I consulted a lot of my friends who were pros in the audio engineering buisness. I bought 8 channles of Millennia HV-3 and rented and borrowed other pres (GML, Neve, etc), mics, compressors. converters. This was in 1994. Unfortunately I tracked to black face Adats, but I've heard many pros tell me they've never heard Adats sound like that.
The nay-saying is a little ridiculous I think. It is not impossible. I'm a professional and have been for many, many years. Everyone has to start somewhere.
I agree that each chain is crucial. But where there's a will there's a way. To a young writer/performer there's simply no way to come up with 10k to record essentially a demo. But piece, by piece gear can be aquired and one can learn to engineer. Like it or not this is what is happening. Sure 99% sounds like crap and if they don't know it now (it's amazing how people can't hear how bad their own stuff sounds!) they will soon enough.
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
It's not impossible to track with very good results. When I started out doing it myself, I consulted a lot of my friends who were pros in the audio engineering business. I bought 8 channels of Millennia HV-3 and rented and borrowed other pres (GML, Neve, etc), mics, compressors. converters. This was in 1994. Unfortunately I tracked to black face Adats, but I've heard many pros tell me they've never heard Adats sound like that.The nay-saying is a little ridiculous I think. It is not impossible. I'm a professional and have been for many, many years. Everyone has to start somewhere.
I agree that each chain is crucial. But where there's a will there's a way. To a young writer/performer there's simply no way to come up with 10k to record essentially a demo. But piece, by piece gear can be acquired and one can learn to engineer. Like it or not this is what is happening. Sure 99% sounds like crap and if they don't know it now (it's amazing how people can't hear how bad their own stuff sounds!) they will soon enough.
I am talking about the "garage band" that is ready and willing to put up $3,000.00 to have their stuff replicated and 1000 CDs produced. Call it a DEMO or a CD for RELEASE. They have some equipment (maybe a Mackie mixer and a couple of ADATs and a couple of microphones plus some outboard effects that are from Behringer or worse and they have not had a chance to learn to play their instruments let alone use any of the gear.
Yes they will eventually get better and maybe buy some better equipment but they need someone with professional ears and professional skills ( and someone who knows what sounds good and what does not) to show them the ropes and not just go out a purchase more equipment. It is not like learning a computer - you can't just keep pushing buttons on the keyboard until something happens.
If you put a really top flight engineer into a room full of inferior equipment he or she could do more with it than most people can even imagine. If you take a person who knows nothing about recording and give him Neumann microphones, a Neve console and a Studer tape deck feeding into a ProTools HD system he or she is NOT going to know what to do with the equipment and from what I have personally witnessed will not take the time to learn how to use it correctly
Although I am a gear head I don't think just owning good gear is the way to go. I have seen too many people with more equipment that they know what to do with turning out lousy songs. As I said in my earlier post turning out a good CD is a process that every step has to be done well in order for the whole album to come out sounding good. That same $3,000.00 could be better spent hiring a pro engineer to do the recording, mixing and mastering (if need be) than by giving it to the replication facility to turn out a pile of plastic that no one cares about or wants to listen to because it is so badly done. You can't get anything for free and the people at GC are the ones that keep telling the musicians the same thing you are saying. By more gear and you will sound better. I am saying that you need to learn the gear and learn to hear what sounds good - just having more gear is not going to get you a thing except a bigger VISA or Master Card balance.
Hope this clarifies my earlier statements....
Originally posted by slicraider:
Audiogaff mentioned
you can always buy some DAW or outboard gear and re-mix it which is easier and cheaper than the tracking/recording part which requires much more skill to do well, more gear and a good room to do it in.
Well having assisted many mixers whose business it was to only mix big label records I must disagree. While the art of the recordist is one that takes time, great gear, and a great room (as well as something good to record) mixing takes years to truly get good at. Why do you think that's all these guys do is mix? Why labels are paying certain mixers over $10,000 a song and delaying projects release to ensure the right guy mixes it. Check out some CDs. See how often a different guy mixed it. And how many times have you heard a different mix for the single which blew away the original mix? I think you give these musicians a misguided view of what is possible.
If you read the original posted question, then you also read that I suggested to do the whole project in a professional studio. The main concern was cost and time. It is far wiser to get your songs and material at least recorded and tracked and then worry about mixing. No doubt there is a high cost to get results from someone with advanced skills in mixing. Until you have the time/money and are willing to commit to achieving that level, there is certainly nothing wrong having the raw tracks to play with, work with, practice on and to learn from as a way to develop your own mixing skills. After all, that is how you learn. As a mixing engineer myself, I can learn from and get a sense of what the client is after or the musical statement they are trying to make by hearing their rough mixes. And just because some expensive mix jockey fiddles with your material that surely doesn't mean that it is destined to be a hit or make any real difference in your final outcome from what you spent. They are just as capable to turn out plenty of turds as well as anybody else. A quick listen to the radio and to many of the top 100 hits easily confirms that.
Tracking is very important if it's a live band. If it's coming out of a box, then anyone can do it but it takes a real mix engineer to make it into something special. But if it's a live band then tracking is the key and the mix becomes less important. A classic example is I witnessed a mix that Eliot Schiener did on a project he was producing. It took him about 2 hours per song and he only used 2 spx90's. all the rest was a little console eq and bring up the faders. Sounded incredible and I didn't even have time to finish a sandwich. The reason why mix jockey's, i was one, get paid the big bucks to mix is because they are there to save a project. They are hired to take a mediocre project and turn it into something. The project has been taken out of the hands of the producer and artist and handed over to someone more capable to produce something, in most cases not all. If it is tracked well and produced well, then this wouldn't be needed because all you would have to do is bring up the faders and you have a great mix. Safe engineering has been taught and ingrained in most engineers now because they don't have the skills to make the right decisions while they are tracking it. "don't eq and compress and by no means print effects to tape just incase you want to change it later". This is BS and a waste of time to a skilled engineer and was not an option to old school engineers. there were no supprises at the mix stage, the song and the mix was done when the tracking was done. The only reason why mix jockey's have a job is because the tracking engineers don't know what they are doing. You cannot improve a great recording. Just like a mastering engineer doesn't and can't do much to a great sounding mix. On budget projects, which are nearly all of them now, the buck gets passed from the tracking engineer to the mix engineer to the mastering engineer.
Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
Tracking is very important if it's a live band. If it's coming out of a box, then anyone can do it but it takes a real mix engineer to make it into something special. But if it's a live band then tracking is the key and the mix becomes less important. A classic example is I witnessed a mix that Eliot Schiener did on a project he was producing. It took him about 2 hours per song and he only used 2 spx90's. all the rest was a little console eq and bring up the faders. Sounded incredible and I didn't even have time to finish a sandwich. The reason why mix jockey's, I was one, get paid the big bucks to mix is because they are there to save a project. They are hired to take a mediocre project and turn it into something. The project has been taken out of the hands of the producer and artist and handed over to someone more capable to produce something, in most cases not all. If it is tracked well and produced well, then this wouldn't be needed because all you would have to do is bring up the faders and you have a great mix. Safe engineering has been taught and ingrained in most engineers now because they don't have the skills to make the right decisions while they are tracking it. "don't eq and compress and by no means print effects to tape just incase you want to change it later". This is BS and a waste of time to a skilled engineer and was not an option to old school engineers. there were no surprises at the mix stage, the song and the mix was done when the tracking was done. The only reason why mix jockey's have a job is because the tracking engineers don't know what they are doing. You cannot improve a great recording. Just like a mastering engineer doesn't and can't do much to a great sounding mix. On budget projects, which are nearly all of them now, the buck gets passed from the tracking engineer to the mix engineer to the mastering engineer.
While I agree with most of your premise that in the old days "the mix was done when the tracking was done" a lot of people in my generation (baby boomer) learned how to record in the days of analog. You had to do things correctly from the start and make many decisions along the way that would guide the final outcome of the mix. This was especially true when you were doing multitrack mixes and bouncing them to two tracks to free up other tracks. This was a BIG STEP and one you could not repeat so you needed to do it correctly the first time though there were no "second takes" You also had to leave head room and at the same time optimize your levels so you did not get a bunch of tape hiss or distortion.
Today a lot of engineers go directly to Pro Tools or Sequoia and to them it must seem archaic the way we use to do things. I don't really want to go back to those days of analog tape for recording and tracking but I do think they taught me an awful lot about the professional art of mixing.
Today too many people don't take time to read the instructions or take time to learn anything. They think that it is like playing a video game and that by scoring points you will get to the next level. Sorry but no points and no next level UNTIL you really learn what you are doing.
Since I am a mastering engineer I get to see the end results of this thinking when they bring their new masterpiece in for mastering and there are nothing but blocks of sound showing up on my DAW after down loading their stuff. When asked why there is no dynamic range and everything is squashed they look blankly at me and say "I thought that this was the correct way to do things by always being at 0 db. Yea but......not everything all the time. Where do they learn about mixing?...not on sites such as this but by asking the salesman at GC or their friends who know just enough to be dangerous.
There are also a lot of people who take the time and the trouble to learn what they are doing and they are well on the road to becoming professional audio engineers and to them I say "welcome to the club"
My advice is to take the time and learning how to do things BEFORE you do them not learn how to correct those mistakes later. It takes a lot less time and the results will be SOOOOOOOOO much better.
The other way I learned an awfully lot about mixing, and what you were alluding to, was going direct to two track where there were also no second chances and no chance for a retake. There is nothing like going direct to two track to really tell how well you know your stuff. It is scary and at the same time exhilarating to be sitting there committing to tape a nights concert and flying without a parachute.
Hope this helps
[ February 29, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Thomas W. Bethel ]
Bullplop.... puuuuure bullplop...If you have the skills you don't need a separate engineer, they just get in the way and hamper your creativity. :) Nolan, this statement by Tom IS common, and is learned very early on. Some overcome the pitfalls, maybe you have, but another engineer is really best to make that judgement.
I was told when I started in the early 70's, that I would have difficulty recording my own music because I would be partial to my own instrument. I thought “Bullplop" as well.
Well, I listened back, and I have long since realized it to be true. I really noticed my shortcomings when I performed under direction of another. My musicianship improved...alot.
You can't really have it both ways. It is an easy test really, just have another engineer record and mix you, and compare the difference.
What I thought were cool guitar solos and cool change up's were a whole different animal when someone else tweaked the mix.
Tom’s statement is not to discourage anyone from recording himself or herself, he just means that an impartial set of ears and your performance ability not being hindered by techno dabble will, quite possibly, yield a better product. But, by all means...keep on recording and enjoying your music.
--Rick