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HR824's

Profile picture for user byacey

I was in a local studio not long ago and they had Mackie'824s. At first I thought they sounded really good, although they seemed to have an exagerated bottom end.
I asked the engineer about the sub, and he replied " There isn't any. We shut it off, there was to much bottom end." As it was, everything I was hearing was from the
824's. Somewhat skeptical, I played the part that I needed to play for a session, and then went back to my own studio with some doubts about my own monitors - EV
Sentry 100's and some YSM 1's. About 6 weeks later I heard the final mix of that project and whaddya know? The mix had a very poorly defined and weak bottom
end. The room they were in was a well designed room and was designed and tuned by an outside consultant; so what gives? All reports I have read and heard from
users indicate this is a great monitor...
Bill Y

Comments

K-Sound Studios Mon, 12/30/2002 - 10:34

Making the snare sound like Omar ... well, that's the issue, if I want it to sound that way I don't want to guess at it, I want to hear it.. if I guess at it then, I'll also need to guess at what's going on with the rest of that same range with the other instruments .. the low end .. I'm less concerned with.. my guess is that 85-90% of our hearing pleasure is in the midrange .. anyway, I can mix on the Mackies, and no they're not a bad speaker, but I would prefer not to .. hey I bought a pair too, remember!?
So what are the other two monitors you use??

3dchris Mon, 12/30/2002 - 11:21

K-Sound,
I don't understand what does it mean "guess". If I hear Omar's snare through my Mackies and I make my sound same or similar then I do not think I'm guessing. And the midrange and soundstage on Mackies is very good IMHO. But as I said again...it's just a matter of preference :) And yes, I use NS-10s too :)

chris

3dchris Mon, 12/30/2002 - 13:42

I have one more question. How do you know how much bass to add and how to eq it on NS-10s?

tnx,

chris

audiowkstation Mon, 12/30/2002 - 13:45

You asked:

Bill and Fats,
Are you saying that an engineer can't make a good souning mix on HR824s?

I said: (above if you read)

That's great! you have found something you love. Cool

And I said this:

Very cool, that is all that matters is that is is as level as you can get it (for translation purposes) and that you can work with the speakers you have.

What part of that did you not understand?

3dchris Mon, 12/30/2002 - 15:45

Bill,
I understood what you were saying. However I do not understand how do you know how much bass to add and how to eq it on (for example) NS-10s?
To me NS-10s (like many other monitors) lack the bass and this is where I have to GUESS the proper levels. Of course over the years I learned those monitors so NOW I KNOW. I guarantee that same thing is would work with Mackies. Nobody will ever produce great mix on ANY monitor without LEARNING it's sound first. That's my message. That's what I'm trying to say. Don't you agree with it?

tnx,

chris

3dchris Mon, 12/30/2002 - 17:28

I apologize for all the typos or any other type of errors I make in my posts. I just type too fast and never go back to read it :) It's like composing...i love to be driven by my emotions :)

tnx,

chris

audiowkstation Mon, 12/30/2002 - 18:14

On NS10's, the first thing you learn with them is to trust them.

So it sounds ugly, first you work your ass off to make them sound like the finest sounding speaker you have ever heard. It can be done, you manipulate your mix to make the smooth and mellow and just awesome.

It is not the NS10 is nasty, it is the professional sound realm that dictates you make the NS10 sound proper. The real engineers realized this point. It goes back to the old days of protocol. It is how electronics from pro to consumer is set up to operate and work properly.

Then you have the problem with them not being able to go below 60hZ in output but the cones are getting everything because they are linear dynamic. They see all frequencies whether you can hear them or not. Time to use the eyes.

You learn now to watch the white woofers and realize a Kick drum will move the cone twice as far as a bass line and you apply serious power to them. Like 200 watts a channel. Yamaha made slip mats so they would not scoot off the meter bridge as an option. I personally had 500 watts per channel on mine. You watch the cones just as you watch the waves in an editor and vibe with what is going on there all the while balancing with any harshness (that should never be heard on NS10's in the professional realum) and make them sound like the smoothest most translucent thing ever.

Engineering in the true sense is not a cat that bought a bunch of equipment and makes it sound good.

Vast properties of protocol are laid into this field for 50 years on how consumer gear is built and arranged to coincide with such protocol.

No serious song is relased unless it passes the rigurious standards of said protocol.

You want to go pro, listen to me. Cats that know this make 200K a year. I have because I have been there and as in independent, I am heading for much bigger things than that.

I am here to teach you what the real deal is.

Their are forces at work to keep you from hearing or knowing this knowledge. That is why me and fats and K sounds are so passionate about this. It is not an argument, it is is your ignorance, not stupidity. A stupid person will not listen. An ignorant person never had the chance to listen.

Now listen.

I am not BSting you.

It is not a shot in the dark, it is a formula. It is established and it must be learned and it must be exersized.

Once you trust them and change everything (in the pro realum) to sound perfect from 60hZ up (and watching the cones (an artform) then it is now time to take it to the next step which is to a mastering house, out of your hands.

Another set of ears that are trained with tens of thousands of hours of audio listening is now the person you trust to make the final adjustments required for your works to play back on all systems. Realize that 31% of all record company profit is provided by the company called MUZAK that does back ground sound in grocery stores. This is a political influence.

One of my jobs is to remaster things for other broadcast realms that were not translating.

This mastering house will provide the translation that is proper in the professional format , to the consumer format. That is what mastering engineers do for a living. The consumer format encompasses everything to the 8 year old with their walkman to the thousands of grocery stores that subscribe to MUZAK to the radio, streaming, CD sales, and satt links for dish net, cable and about 20 other formats I do not care to mention.

If you saw the whole picture, then you would not blindly say this or that.

It is much larger than you, me, your speakers, your room, or mine. it is what *has* to happen in protocol.

You either do it the way the standard has been presented, or you are not coming in.

I am here to teach you what to do, to get in!

I want everyone to be able to get in but there are rules and they were not mine.

More.....

It is protocol.

If you are working in the professional format, and try to end up with something sutible for matering using the pro sumer format speakers, then the mastering engineer has a clusterfuck on his hands. Something that could have been mixed right but it is not and no mastering engineer can fix a mix that was out of calibration.

Protocol dictates that you stay within the dynamic realm of professional standards during the mix, and you then send it off to another person to do proper mastering that is a true professional in this.

Profile picture for user Mario-C.

Mario-C. Mon, 12/30/2002 - 18:46

the first thing I do when I wake up is run to my new NS10's and kiss them...
I have the mackies too and I like them but I think Bill is right, the low end is not accurate in my opinion

Alécio Costa -… Mon, 12/30/2002 - 19:46

hey, now it is my turn! I agree with Bill and Cedar about the HR824´s. I was really saving some money to buy a pair of them... I did long listening tests in my 2 rooms, a bad too dead and a live balanced one, and was not that big thing....
I am not a big fan of NS10´s either. listening fatigue, 1k to 3k bump... seems they imitate the soun of 70´s/80´s consumer stereo systems. Any $50 stereo system nowadays reproduced much more bass than the old good NS10´s.
Maybe it is just too much prejudice of mine, might sound funny to ya.. it is a question of knowing your speakers, but I became much more comfortable with the Monitor Ones, which have a hyped bass, undefined 80 to 135hz, tubish mids...

So what else shall be used at the $1000 price range? Cedar comments the KRK monitors...

Thanks
:D

3dchris Mon, 12/30/2002 - 19:48

Bill,
Thank You for the reply. I am glad I can learn something new and I totally agree with you on the protocol thing. But as I was reading your reply I realized that what you said about NS-10s is exactly what I was trying to convey to everyone since my first post: WE HAVE TO LEARN HOW OUR MONITORS SOUND. No matter how good or bad the monitor is we MUST learn it. We must learn NS-10s same way we have to learn mackies. Thats all I wanted to say. Another very important thing is to listen to your mixes on other monitors (and all variety of speakers) before you send it to mastering.

tnx,

chris

p.s. I use CAPS for emphasis. It is not screaming.

3dchris Mon, 12/30/2002 - 20:00

Mario-C,
Mackies not accurate? Ok..so are NS-10s. I rather learn how to eq bass on mackies than "look" at the speaker hearing no bass and then trying to eq it properly:) it's just a matter of prefernce. Another thing is that it is easy to monitor on HR824s for long hours while on NS-10s it is absolutely impossible. I would rather go play golf or something :)

Alecio,
I used Monitor One for one project and they are ok, yet for me compared to to mackies they sound lifeless. Still much more pleasing than NS-10s.
Well....as I said...it's all a matter of preference...but if you ask me I won't sell my mackies :) I LOVE THEM!

tnx,

chris

audiowkstation Mon, 12/30/2002 - 20:36

Yoda says:

Until you master the ways of the NS10 ,you are not going to achive master status.

Mackie is the easy way Route. Shortcut.

You will still be a baby.

Work very hard for best rewards. Work very hard and diligent. Make NS 10 sound better than mackie and the you will achieve rewards.

Profile picture for user Kurt Foster

Kurt Foster Mon, 12/30/2002 - 22:00

The crossover in NS 10's are more accurate than in a lot of other monitors. It's that … and the region it is in, that makes NS 10's so useful. I'm not sure what it is but the NS 10's have the ability to show me exactly what is going on in the 500 Hz area … First, if I can get the 500 sounding good on NS 10s … and all the sounds are smooth and NOT peaky and harsh sounding, when I switch to other speakers everything is ok. But if I set up the mix on other speakers and switch to the NS 10's it almost always sounds sh*tty! I mix primarily on the NS 10's switching up to Tannoy DMTIII 12's to listen for ultra highs and lows and checking on Auatones for a boombox check.

NS 10's go down to 60 Hz which is about what the common hi fi speaker will do. All that bass you guys are whining about, isn't usually heard on most stereos, unless some one has an audiophile grade system or by some wanker who is trying to deafen himself and everyone else with a subwoofer in a car! You know, BOOM, BOOM-Boom-Boom, BOOM! And who gives a sh*t about that? I don't. I mix music, not noise! The average home stereo doesn't usually do much below 60 Hz. 60 to 100 Hz. is where you NEED to be focusing, not 40 and lower! Make it sound good and full on the small speakers and then switch to a sub or larger speakers to make sure you aren't overdoing it. Listen to a commercially produced CD, there isn't that much bass on it. Less than what most novices would try to put into their mix's. The music's in the midrange! (Where'd I hear that?) ………… Fats

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

d franko Tue, 12/31/2002 - 04:01

Anyone have any thoughts on the yamaha msp-10s? I'm about the only person I know that has them.

3dchris Tue, 12/31/2002 - 04:50

Hehe,
I see that NS-10s become the best monitors available :) :) :) Too bad most professional recording studios do not use them as their primary tracking and mixing monitors :)

txn,

chris

Profile picture for user Kurt Foster

Kurt Foster Tue, 12/31/2002 - 09:30

3dchris,
Before I say this let me say I am sorry to be coming off like a smart ass and like I'm on an ego trip but it is the only way I can think of to make my point! Do you own a professional commercial studio? I did until about a year ago. I sold out and retired at 49 with the money I made at it. You can do a net search on my name and find at least 9 listing of commercial albums I have recorded that were released. I can't begin to name the demos I have done that have sold bands or songs to labels, management teams publishers etc. I have received HUGE checks in the mail and wire transfers with my studios name on them for record projects. I'm here to tell you that a LOT of studios and engineers / recordists still use NS10's as their primary speaker to track and mix on. It's a fact. Just open a copy of Mix, EQ Pro Sound News or any other recording industry magazine… the common thing you will see in a lot of studios? NS 10's! You will see more sets of NS 10's than any other speaker. One thing you WON'T see… Mackie speakers, or Event, or Behringer, or Alesis, or … well you get the point. (I hope) ……..

This can go on forever. I have seen this discussion for at least 6 months now here at RO. There are the guys who have made records and have gained a lot of expierence recording who will admit that NS 10's are an industry standard and that quality monitors come at a price. There is no free lunch! . Then there are the guys who seem to think there is a cheap way out or worse yet that they know what works better. The sad fact is they don't. I have tried to explained this at least 10 times and I just don't know what else to say about it.

I understand a persons reticence to buy a set of speakers that don't sound flattering. I felt that way once also. I thought NS 10's were awful sounding. And they can be. But they sound bad on material that sounds bad. They are bare bones truth, all the wart exposed, worst case scenario thing. The bottom line is if you try them, give them a chance instead of sitting a whining about them, really get in and track and mix on them, after a while you will never want to give them up. People who have used them and say they don't work are lying, have some other agenda, are full of sh*t or simply just don't know any better. It is possible for someone with no taste at all to spend an obscene amount of money on audio gear and set up a studio. Unfortunately there are a lot of them and they're always willing to chime in with their two cents. This is what causes so much confusion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

K-Sound Studios Tue, 12/31/2002 - 09:31

I think Bill's statement kinda sums it up .. not just for speakers, but compression as well (another can of worms!), and oh yes, EQ, and Effects (two more cans..!!).

"There are forces at work to keep you from hearing or knowing this knowledge. That is why me and fats and K sounds are so passionate about this. It is not an argument, it is is your ignorance, not stupidity. A stupid person will not listen. An ignorant person never had the chance to listen."

I can mix on NS-10's .. no problem .. I'd rather not.. I had my pair and paid my dues, thank you.. matter of fact I'm getting to the point where I can get a fair idea where I'm at with most any speaker .. it only took a few years of listening .. no too long.

As for the "guess" at a sound ... well,with any speaker that is hyped somewhere (low, mid, high, whatever).. You will guess, I really mean that .. you may think you're hearing that snare, but take the sound you hear, and do an A/B with Omar's snare everywhere for a week or two .. I doubt it'll stand up to consistancy of the Omar snare .. and that's because of knowing how things will translate. This does not mean that you may not have a great snare sound, far from my point ... it's just that Sting's engineer and mastering house are on a bit higher plane... certainly than I am, I respect that and try to learn from that. It's worth a try to shoot holes in your own work and compare it to something you like. How can you loose?

Last, and really way far from least,are two other things .. #1 I have a good grip on, #2 I don't but in time, I'll learn ... sure I will :) :
#1. It is the engineers job to produce a product that can be artfully mastered, which means he better know the fundemental frequencies of things, and not have them getting in the way of each other. This is SO SO important, and what makes mixes stand up .. can you say: The Beatles?
Think how those mixes and mastering have stood up to all old and new sound systems.. it's unreal.

#2. (Here's where I get ignorant!) The mastering house has more than a few sonic delights available. They can not be used if the provided sound is lacking the basics, or has been tained with dynamic processing that can not be undone.I'm not sure, other than the prep of #1, what us engineers should know about so they can be used to the fullest.This is what I need to learn .. any others in my boat?

My personal guess would be .. for ME .... that it'd take almost as much time to grasp the in's and out's of some mastering, as it did for tracking/mixing EQ, and compression .. a bit shorther, because I fell up the 1st three flights, and I don't have to climb them this time around. I am smart enough to tell you how much I don't know ... TONS:)

Profile picture for user Kurt Foster

Kurt Foster Tue, 12/31/2002 - 10:01

I feel the need to repeat myself as no one has address this question / statement. This has a lot to do with this disscussion.

The average home stereo doesn't usually do much below 60 Hz. 60 to 100 Hz. is where you NEED to be focusing, not 40 and lower! Make it sound good and full on the small speakers and then switch to a sub or larger speakers to make sure you aren't overdoing it. Listen to a commercially produced CD, there isn't that much bass on it. Less than what most novices would try to put into their mix's. The music's in the midrange!

All this focus on deep bass is such a huge load! Especially in pop music. If your producing rap ( a totally different argument) you need to hear a lot of low (you'll be deaf in a few years anyway but it doesn't matter, because rap isn't supposed to sound good) but other than that, the only reason to even think about what is going on below 60 Hz. is to make sure your not overdoing the deep bass inadvertently. Quick checks on a larger main system will confirm that. Other than that, 90% of the playback of your precious work is going to be on systems that really don't do much below 100 cycles!. All in all, 60Hz. is pretty low! I would much rather hear concern at what is going on above 20,000 cycles. That is waaaay more important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

K-Sound Studios Tue, 12/31/2002 - 14:12

Hey Cedar .... I tried to deal with the midrange issue in a post back on page 1(?)
.. the low end .. I'm less concerned with.. my guess is that 85-90% of our hearing pleasure is in the midrange .. anyway,.....
Hey, I had to go look and find it .... and I wrote it!
So, yes, you are 100% right.

If you want bottom (to impress the clients) get an 18" sub, and 1,500 or so watts, and a switch to throw that in when the mains are playing. I had a friend do that and it was AMAZING .. and you'll never hear it again like that anywhere!

And .. you're still right!

x