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HR824's

I was in a local studio not long ago and they had Mackie'824s. At first I thought they sounded really good, although they seemed to have an exagerated bottom end.
I asked the engineer about the sub, and he replied " There isn't any. We shut it off, there was to much bottom end." As it was, everything I was hearing was from the
824's. Somewhat skeptical, I played the part that I needed to play for a session, and then went back to my own studio with some doubts about my own monitors - EV
Sentry 100's and some YSM 1's. About 6 weeks later I heard the final mix of that project and whaddya know? The mix had a very poorly defined and weak bottom
end. The room they were in was a well designed room and was designed and tuned by an outside consultant; so what gives? All reports I have read and heard from
users indicate this is a great monitor...
Bill Y

Comments

audiowkstation Fri, 01/03/2003 - 18:17

First, get the meter and do some sweep tests.

Make sure it is the analog meter with the needle.

C and fast on settings.

Get a sine wave generator off the web as source.

See what you can do to get flat frequency response from 50 Up first.

Baby steps...but actually, lets hear a job by you in Internet audio. Upload one, you may be darn close now!

bjoern Sat, 01/04/2003 - 19:00

Hi there,

I just wanted to say thanks so much for this thread, it has been really eye-opening (I've been lurking here for ages!) I too use the 824's and per your advice, I decided to get a meter and check my room.

I have found a real drop (12-14 db roughly) at around 100 hz, while the other frequencies are generally within about 5 db of each other. I was just curious as to what this means exactly and how can it be remedied?

Thanks again and sorry if this answer is way too obvious!

Shawn

audiowkstation Sat, 01/04/2003 - 19:07

Drop around 100. Okay!

You are experiencing a situation with unequal distances from boundries causing the range to go "out of phase".

Measure the distance the left speaker is from the left wall, do the same for the right wall and make them equal in distance. Also measure the distance to the wall behind. How far are the rear of the speakers from the back wall?

Are you measuring where your head is during monitoring?? that is the place to do it.

Also, 5 dB swing is alot. Every 3dB is equivalent to doubling your amplifiers wattage!!!!

I am curious of the distances before you move them. The passive radiator is becoming an impedance transformer for the low end and the out of phase at 100 verifys that.

Let me know distances and we can work from there!

You can use inch/feet, or mm/m is fine

bjoern Sat, 01/04/2003 - 19:26

Thanks for the quick reply Bill! I think you've nailed the reason (the unequal distances in my room). I have an "L" shaped room with some odd "half-walls" on the outside.

These end up being the measurements:

My left monitor is 9.5" from the wall and my right monitor ends up being 16" from the wall, due to the half-wall on the left monitor side (can you picture this?). From the rear wall, my left monitor is 10 ft and my right monitor is about 25 ft (due to the "L" shape). Do I have some reorganizing to do?

As well, what's the best way get those other frequencies in closer tolerances?

Thanks so much!

Shawn

Btw, I am measuring in a 4 ft triangle, where my head would be.

Profile picture for user Screws

Screws Sat, 01/04/2003 - 19:31

Hi Bill,

I tried your test on my Mackies with the Radio Shack db meter (the one with the needle). I had to use an old Mix Reference CD I had around here so the frequencies weren't exactly as you mentioned, but I figured were close enough.

1250 Hz 80 db
50 Hz 79 db
63 Hz 81 db

I was a little perplexed to find this out, since I was convinced the Mackies were the main trouble I've had getting low end to translate. In fact, though I did do the test with the Mackies set to full space and 37 Hz, I've recently started mixing at half space to try to fix the bass/kick dilemna I've been having.

audiowkstation Sat, 01/04/2003 - 20:11

Screws, sound like your room is cooperating at those frequencys but try this software package that is tested and fully calibrated. You can be flat at 50hZ and 63 but can be up a bunch at 55hZ.

Run this software provided to all at no charge and proceed with more testing. The sweep is most important. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.moonaudio.com/softwar5.htm"]4 station audio test equipemt for PC[/]="http://www.moonaudio.com/softwar5.htm"]4 station audio test equipemt for PC[/]

PS, do the frequency f=generator, set both channels to -10 and sweep the frequency bar, watch that needle..if it swings back and forth as you go up and down, their is the problem. Mainly it is room generated.

monopole Sun, 01/05/2003 - 01:46

Hi.

1- The Mackies are extremely under-damped in the bass, due to the particular way the passive radiator is used. They ringggggg for long after the note has stopped. This means they blur and bloat the bass, but you cannot measure this with simple test gear.

2- The Rat Shack meter is total shite. I used to think at least the analog one was usable. But one day, I decided to put it into a real calibrator (GenRad). It was up to 20 dB wrong at the low and high ends. Toss it. It is only useful for getting an approximation of total SPL. It is not helpful for frequency response.

audiowkstation Sun, 01/05/2003 - 05:36

I use a B&K myself, the shack meters use to be +/- 1 devices (1979). I guess Quality Control went into the trash as well. Maybe they use the same designers :^,

k.w.blackwell Sun, 01/05/2003 - 10:24

Originally posted by Bill Roberts:
Good to see you come around the home again!

Well, thanks.

Work with what you got.

Whew! That's reassuring. I'll try to tame the low-end, somehow, though it might take some time. But it's the 3K problem that has been such an epiphony reading this thread. Yesterday I tried using mid-sweep EQ set to 3K and raising it up a decibel or two just to try to make sure I'm not overdoing it. I re-listened to some prior mixes this way and I'm left aghast wondering if this is more like what my mixes sounded like to others. But I realize that this isn't a way to correct for it. In fact, it might make the phase problem worse. But at least if I do this occasionally I'll be less likely to overemphasize this area in my mixes, which I might have been doing, at least on some.

About the CD, send me a link, it is a go.

Great. Unfortunately, all the info hasn't gotten put together yet in one place. When that finally happens, it will show up under the name "5th (or Fifth) or RAP" along with the liner notes for all the prior rec.audio.pro compilations at hoohahrecords.com/rap/index1.htm

But don't let that stop you. You can put in your order now. The disks will be ready any day now. Harvey Gerst is handling the money and distribution, which you can read about here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=F711262634CA465A.33B3C47507A7CDA9.DEFB4A705EE94155%40lp.airnews.net with another note later in that thread, found at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=011DD4C0DDFF3B78.EB95FEAF67FDA0B7.0645A2A672CEE40E%40lp.airnews.net

You can find an almost-final list of the tracks to be on these 5 CD's here (see if you recognize any names :):
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=asvsm7%24ct3%241%40bob.news.rcn.net
But in this recent update, Harvey mentions that a few more tracks will be added:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4EC0FB7FA5EC3733.9CA5AF9F5B425D1B.41E198F34554A2C8%40lp.airnews.net

And once everything is finished, the first link I mentioned above will have the final list.

Profile picture for user Screws

Screws Sun, 01/05/2003 - 17:18

Bill,

Got any ideas where to get a similar test program for the Mac?

monopole Sun, 01/05/2003 - 17:24

Doesn't surprise me. They could have changed vendors 10 times since '79. My two Shack meters are a few years old. They are pretty accurate when measuring the overall SPL level of pink noise or music. But that is a average balance kind of thing. Actual sinewave frequency response outside of, say, 300 to 3,000 Hz is really bad. I was disappointed, having expected them to be better. I used a piston phone calibrator, then double-checked using a free-space calibrated mic. Same.

Originally posted by Bill Roberts:
I use a B&K myself, the shack meters use to be +/- 1 devices (1979). I guess Quality Control went into the trash as well. Maybe they use the same designers :^,

Alécio Costa -… Mon, 01/06/2003 - 18:18

hey Uncle Bill!! what happened with the email pic of my room I sent ya? I am just waiting for some tips of yours!
LOL
Hugs
Alécio
:p

CARY Wed, 01/08/2003 - 12:24

Originally posted by Bill Roberts:
Screws, sound like your room is cooperating at those frequencys but try this software package that is tested and fully calibrated. You can be flat at 50hZ and 63 but can be up a bunch at 55hZ.

Run this software provided to all at no charge and proceed with more testing. The sweep is most important. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.moonaudio.com/softwar5.htm"]4 station audio test equipemt for PC[/]="http://www.moonaudio.com/softwar5.htm"]4 station audio test equipemt for PC[/]

PS, do the frequency f=generator, set both channels to -10 and sweep the frequency bar, watch that needle..if it swings back and forth as you go up and down, their is the problem. Mainly it is room generated.

What a great free piece of software!
Thanks for the great link!
Carry on...

Profile picture for user Screws

Screws Wed, 01/08/2003 - 17:06

Hey Bill,

Thanks big-time for the software link. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, I've got to install some digidesign driver from their website so I can run the test tones out through my Audio Media card.

Meanwhile, I've started using an old pair of Auratones. WOW! Eq and mix decisions can be trusted on these ugly little things. Now it seems I only have to check the bass and occasionally check the entire mix on the Mackies.

Thanks for everything. Once I finish mixing I'll give you a call and see if we can meet regarding your mastering services.

lwstudio Fri, 01/10/2003 - 00:54

ive never liked the mackie sound either.ive heard quite a lot of bad mixes done on them too...

WLoveday Fri, 01/10/2003 - 06:03

I have recently did some mixes on hr824s and I am hearing the lack of bass translation myself. Haven't had trouble with the 3k issue yet, but give it time I guess. I'm still a little wet behind the ears on this one.

I am curious about these spl meters, and think it will be a good investment to get one. (Now I'll know if I'll fry that mic when the guitar player refuses to turn down!)

I see radio shack has the analog needle one and the digital one with more bells and whistles for another $10.

You guys seem to say go for the needle one. What's the reason for this?

Thanks,

-Wes

mixman77 Fri, 01/10/2003 - 06:39

We appologize for the inconvenience, but this member's posts have been deleted.

SonOfSmawg
Administrator

[ January 29, 2003, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: SonOfSmawg ]

CARY Fri, 01/10/2003 - 07:31

Originally posted by Wes Loveday:

I see radio shack has the analog needle one and the digital one with more bells and whistles for another $10.

You guys seem to say go for the needle one. What's the reason for this?

Thanks,

-Wes

I'm wondering the same thing. I have the digital meter from RS but have never tried to verify it's accuracy, because I don't have a good reference. Is it way off?

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