I appear to be having a case of deja-vu this morning...I thought this was sorted out years ago.
Maybe I'm wrong...or theres' a bustle in my hedgerow or something. .
Led Zeppelin Stairway To Heaven / Spirit Taurus
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/12/stairway-to-heaven-led-zeppelin-copyright-lawsuit
Should they just rename the thing Stairway to Taurus and be done with it ?:confused:
Thoughts ?
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While there's no doubt that Taurus and the intro Stairway are un
While there's no doubt that Taurus and the intro Stairway are undoubtedly (and eerily) very similar, the legal issue may now come down to one of the amount of time involved - in that Randy California ( Spirit guitarist and the writer of Taurus) had over 25 years - arguably an ample opportunity - to bring forth a lawsuit against LZ; between '71 ( the year Stairway was released) and '97 (the year of his death), and he never did.
What might further complicate things, is that there's a published record of his sentiments on the subject that exists, where he gave his "blessing" to LZ to use Taurus.
In a 1991 interview, he said, "Led Zeppelin used to come up and sit in the front row of all our [Spirit’s] shows and we became friends … and if they wanted to use it [Taurus], that’s fine,” adding: “I’ll let them [Led Zeppelin] have the beginning of Taurus for their song without a lawsuit.”
LZ is claiming that "they can't remember" if they ever toured with Spirit, but, according to the depositions in the suit, Spirit’s surviving band members remember quite clearly that they did; recalling backstage conversations between the two bands and performing after each other at festivals.
If the claimants are awarded a settlement, whatever that settlement may be - money, or writing credit, or both - it could not only set a legal precedent - in that there would now be be no statute of limitations for cases like this - but it could also act as a motivation to other past writers who may feel as though they have been "wronged" in some way as well; and regardless of the amount of time that has lapsed, they could still have a legal foundation on which they could bring forth their own lawsuits. According to Andy Millmore, a copyright lawyer for Harbottle & Lewis, the case could have broad and far-reaching implications across the music industry, because of the length of time that has passed since the song was written. “What’s different about this case from other recent copyright cases, and therefore potentially worrying for record labels and big heritage artists, is that this a case from nearly 50 years ago. If the claimant succeeds, it could lead to people coming out of the woodwork from years ago – composers and smaller artists, who for decades might have harboured some sort of mini grudge because something they wrote was ripped off – and this case might give them the courage to take it to the courts.”
As Millmore has mentioned, this particular case is a big one, in that it involves a song that has become so very popular, and which has firmly entrenched itself into popular music history to the point of reaching an iconic status; and, if a 50% settlement is awarded to the claimant(s), we're talking about a fairly serious amount of money - unless the judge would rule that the damages rewarded to the claimants would only be based on song's earned revenue over the last three years - which is entirely possible, based on past similar judgements involving other copyright infringement settlements.
Even so, there's still enough money at stake to make it worth it for former Spirit members and California's surviving family members to seek damages. It's not as if this song's popularity has faded all that much over the years. STH continues to garner heavy rotation on classic rock radio, (both public and subscription/satellite stations) - and younger generations have continued to buy the Led Zeppelin IV album, on which the song originally appeared.
In 2008, Conde Nast Portfolio Magazine published an estimate that included royalties and record sales for Stairway, citing that the hit had earned at least $562 million.
I think we could be fairly certain that this figure has grown since '08.
This is not the first time that a copyright case has been brought against Led Zeppelin, and Page in particular, either. Previous legal challenges against Page and LZ have proven successful for various other claimants in the past, and have resulted in songwriting credits being added to Whole Lotta Love, Babe I’m Gonna Leave You, The Lemon Song and Dazed And Confused.
Appropriately, I suppose that if nothing else, it does beg the question, if Page truly was the genius songwriter that he's been credited as being .... or was he just really good at "interpreting" other artists works?
Sources:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/led-zeppelin-rock-gods-deposed-in-stairway-to-heaven-lawsuit-1.1504950
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/12/stairway-to-heaven-led-zeppelin-copyright-lawsuit
Men At Work were also sued over their iconic song Down Under, wh
Men At Work were also sued over their iconic song Down Under, where the flute riff was similar to the melody of the song Kookaburra which was written for a Girl Guides' competition 70 years before. Larrikin Music which now holds the copyright to Kookaburra successfully sued Men At Works' record label EMI and songwriters Colin Hay & Ron Strykert in 2011 who were ordered to pay 5% royalties dating back to 2002 and from future earnings.:eek:
Some of you on the other side of the Pacific may remember Down Under... a huge hit for Men At Work which was the theme of our amazing 1983 Americas' Cup victory, capturing our entire nation to a standstill where Australia II came back from 3-1 down to beat the Dennis Connor skippered Liberty 4-3...taking the Americas Cup from the New York Yacht Club for the first time in 132 years.
The yacht Australia II was 20 years ahead of its time with its futuristic winged keel designed by the late, great Ben Lexen.
(come on....I know its been 33 years but its still one of our greatest sporting moments so we can still gloat about it !!!...) ;)
One wonders if the song wasn't such a huge hit riding on the crest of that Americas' Cup win, whether Larrikin music would have sued all those years later.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/07/men-at-work-lose-appeal
But what I find a most ironic twist, is the fact the boat which defended the Americas' Cup 4 years later in 1987 was named Kookaburra III, which lost the Americas' Cup to...you guessed it, the Dennis Connor skippered Stars & Stripes 87...
Believe it....or not
Sean G, post: 437877, member: 49362 wrote: @DonnyThompson @Makzi
Sean G, post: 437877, member: 49362 wrote: DonnyThompson @Makzimia is this what you were referring to Tony?
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/66124/petty-fires-back-against-dj-lawsuit
http://www.undercover.fm/news/1448-songwriter-jim-wagner-calls-tom-petty-a-liar
Yep Sean. Jim is really ill these days. He goes on about it still. Apparently he and Janis Joplin were good mates too.
Makzimia, post: 437878, member: 48344 wrote: Jim is really ill t
Makzimia, post: 437878, member: 48344 wrote: Jim is really ill these days. He goes on about it still.
Have you heard the song? If so, do you feel as though there is any basis for Jim Wagner's accusations? I searched Youtube, and while I found Petty's "The Last DJ", I couldn't find Wagner's "The Last Great Radio DJ", so it's impossible to comment, other than to say that Petty is one of those artists and songwriters who has never had any issues in the past in giving collaborators due credit for their contributions.
I will say that the circumstances appear to be a bit "suspicious" - in that both Wagner and Petty knew Jim Ladd - the DJ who Wagner claims to have written the song about - but that wouldn't be enough to decide a case, as it's merely circumstantial evidence.
Ladd, who is a well-known Los Angeles jock, would have access to - and likely be acquainted with - lots of different musicians... both Wagner and Petty included.
Without being able to hear Wagner's version, it's impossible to tell. If anyone can locate the Wagner song, I'd like to hear both songs to compare the two and see if there is a similarity.
@DonnyThompson honestly I had never heard of Jim and happened to
DonnyThompson honestly I had never heard of Jim and happened to meet over him being interested in buying my old Kurzweil synth, I'd never heard of him, or that song. All I know is from my correspondence with Jim and some articles. He strikes me as a troubled man, but honest and broken over what he clearly feels rightly (if true) slighted over it.
I only ever found one song of Jims and that is one someone put up for him. It's very good, so, who knows hey. Just brought it up because it was very relevant to the topic.
Brien Holcombe, post: 437885, member: 48996 wrote: So he IS dead
Brien Holcombe, post: 437885, member: 48996 wrote: So he IS dead?
LOL... maybe not. Up until her death a few years ago, at the tender age of 99, my grandmother had almost daily conversations with my grandfather, who had been dead for over 30 years.
Her conversations with him were very animated, too. For all I knew, maybe he actually was there. He certainly was to her, anyway. I remember once walking in on a one-sided discussion about "that damned John Kennedy not being half the man that Richard Nixon was", and how there was no way in hell she was ever gonna vote for him. LOL
Lol...I read the original post Tony about still being friends wi
Lol...I read the original post Tony about still being friends with Joplin and thought "wow, he must be troubled..."
I searched for the Wagner song too Donny, no such luck.
I even tried to google Jim Ladd Last Great Radio DJ theme song to no avail, just to find more pages dedicated to the lawsuit.
Well, never let it be said that I do not read what each of you h
Well, never let it be said that I do not read what each of you have to say. To that end, how much of this is you Donny?
DonnyThompson, post: 437871, member: 46114 wrote: While there's no doubt that Taurus and the intro Stairway are undoubtedly (and eerily) very similar, the legal issue may now come down to one of the amount of time involved - in that Randy California ( Spirit guitarist and the writer of Taurus) had over 25 years - arguably an ample opportunity - to bring forth a lawsuit against LZ; between '71 ( the year Stairway was released) and '97 (the year of his death), and he never did.What might further complicate things, is that there's a published record of his sentiments on the subject that exists, where he gave his "blessing" to LZ to use Taurus.
In a 1991 interview, he said, "Led Zeppelin used to come up and sit in the front row of all our [Spirit’s] shows and we became friends … and if they wanted to use it [Taurus], that’s fine,” adding: “I’ll let them [Led Zeppelin] have the beginning of Taurus for their song without a lawsuit.”
LZ is claiming that "they can't remember" if they ever toured with Spirit, but, according to the depositions in the suit, Spirit’s surviving band members remember quite clearly that they did; recalling backstage conversations between the two bands and performing after each other at festivals.If the claimants are awarded a settlement, whatever that settlement may be - money, or writing credit, or both - it could not only set a legal precedent - in that there would now be be no statute of limitations for cases like this - but it could also act as a motivation to other past writers who may feel as though they have been "wronged" in some way as well; and regardless of the amount of time that has lapsed, they could still have a legal foundation on which they could bring forth their own lawsuits. According to Andy Millmore, a copyright lawyer for Harbottle & Lewis, the case could have broad and far-reaching implications across the music industry, because of the length of time that has passed since the song was written. “What’s different about this case from other recent copyright cases, and therefore potentially worrying for record labels and big heritage artists, is that this a case from nearly 50 years ago. If the claimant succeeds, it could lead to people coming out of the woodwork from years ago – composers and smaller artists, who for decades might have harboured some sort of mini grudge because something they wrote was ripped off – and this case might give them the courage to take it to the courts.”
As Millmore has mentioned, this particular case is a big one, in that it involves a song that has become so very popular, and which has firmly entrenched itself into popular music history to the point of reaching an iconic status; and, if a 50% settlement is awarded to the claimant(s), we're talking about a fairly serious amount of money - unless the judge would rule that the damages rewarded to the claimants would only be based on song's earned revenue over the last three years - which is entirely possible, based on past similar judgements involving other copyright infringement settlements.
Even so, there's still enough money at stake to make it worth it for former Spirit members and California's surviving family members to seek damages. It's not as if this song's popularity has faded all that much over the years. STH continues to garner heavy rotation on classic rock radio, (both public and subscription/satellite stations) - and younger generations have continued to buy the Led Zeppelin IV album, on which the song originally appeared.In 2008, Conde Nast Portfolio Magazine published an estimate that included royalties and record sales for Stairway, citing that the hit had earned at least $562 million.
I think we could be fairly certain that this figure has grown since '08.This is not the first time that a copyright case has been brought against Led Zeppelin, and Page in particular, either. Previous legal challenges against Page and LZ have proven successful for various other claimants in the past, and have resulted in songwriting credits being added to Whole Lotta Love, Babe I’m Gonna Leave You, The Lemon Song and Dazed And Confused.
Appropriately, I suppose that if nothing else, it does beg the question, if Page truly was the genius songwriter that he's been credited as being .... or was he just really good at "interpreting" other artists works?Sources:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/led-zeppelin-rock-gods-deposed-in-stairway-to-heaven-lawsuit-1.1504950
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/12/stairway-to-heaven-led-zeppelin-copyright-lawsuit
bouldersound, post: 437900, member: 38959 wrote: I have nothing
bouldersound, post: 437900, member: 38959 wrote: I have nothing useful to add, but I grew up listening to Jim Ladd, along with the likes of Bob Coburn, "Paraquat" Pat Kelley and Dr. Demento. It's interesting to see what's become of these people.
About the only American DJ that reached our shores was Casey Kasem with his American Top 40 broadcast...
I really enjoyed listening to it, which was usually on a Sunday evening here in Oz, it kept us abreast of what was happening musically in the US, well before the likes of MTV came along and it ran for maybe 20+ or so years here.
Brien Holcombe, post: 437897, member: 48996 wrote: Well, never l
Brien Holcombe, post: 437897, member: 48996 wrote: Well, never let it be said that I do not read what each of you have to say. To that end, how much of this is you Donny?
LOL... sorry, while I cited the sources, I forgot to put quotation marks in the body of the message. The first two paragraphs, and the last line, are me. The rest is from the sources I cited. ;)
DonnyThompson, post: 437871, member: 46114 wrote: Appropriately,
DonnyThompson, post: 437871, member: 46114 wrote: Appropriately, I suppose that if nothing else, it does beg the question, if Page truly was the genius songwriter that he's been credited as being .... or was he just really good at "interpreting" other artists works?
OK, it was a good read. But I do not think, on the weight of one song arrangement, that Jimmy Pages' genius is in question. While Stairway to heaven is a great arrangement, I can't listen to it anymore after 2 + decades. But I can still listen to many of the songs LZ put together. One further, Jimmy Page and David Coverdale. Jimmy's work on that album will get picked over a lot of Led Zeppelins music. In my opinion, obviously, Jimmys' abilities and his musical genius are hardly under or will they become, in question.
Was it Paul MacCartney that said "Amateurs copy, ", no wait "amateurs borrow, professionals steal"...is that it?
Brien Holcombe, post: 437922, member: 48996 wrote: OK, it was a
Brien Holcombe, post: 437922, member: 48996 wrote: OK, it was a good read. But I do not think, on the weight of one song arrangement, that Jimmy Pages' genius is in question. While Stairway to heaven is a great arrangement, I can't listen to it anymore after 2 + decades. But I can still listen to many of the songs LZ put together. One further, Jimmy Page and David Coverdale. Jimmy's work on that album will get picked over a lot of Led Zeppelins music. In my opinion, obviously, Jimmys' abilities and his musical genius are hardly under or will they become, in question.
Was it Paul MacCartney that said "Amateurs copy, ", no wait "amateurs borrow, professionals steal"...is that it?
There is no doubt Jimmy Page knows his way around the neck of a guitar, that goes without question...and I don't think that is the issue here.
Now it can be said that we are all influenced musically by those that come before us and whose styles appeal to or heavily influence our own
But when it came to Led Zeppelin, some, not all, but a large majority of their most popular works leaned heavily on the work of others, in some cases to the point of blatant plagiarism IMO.
And they seemed to get away with it too...now don't get me wrong, I have been a fan of Led Zeppelin since Christ played fullback for Jerusalem...;)
But sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade....not a shovel
Here are some examples - (source Music Times - 7 Songs Led Zeppelin Ripped Off - Joey DeGroot May 20, 2014
http://www.musictimes.com/articles/6250/20140520/7-songs-other-than-stairway-to-heaven-that-led-zeppelin-stole.htm )
BTW the article I have sourced also has examples of these songs listed side by side for comparison.
This following is taken directly from the article quoted above by Joe De Groot -
1. "Dazed & Confused" (1969)
Though Led Zeppelin often based its music around songs by American bluesmen, the band's first great song "Dazed & Confused" was actually taken from Jake Holmes, an American folk singer that Jimmy Page's previous band the Yardbirds played with in 1967. Page originally adapted the song for the Yardbirds, altering the melody and the lyrics, but eventually recorded a version for Led Zeppelin's first album, without crediting Holmes at all. Holmes finally sued Page for copyright infringement in 2010.
2. "How Many More Times" (1969)
My favorite song on Led Zeppelin's first album is the closer "How Many More Times," an eight-and-a-half-minute psychedelic blues jam with one of Zeppelin's best riffs, originally credited to Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones, and John Bonham. However, since 1993, the song has included a credit for Chester Burnett a.k.a. Howlin' Wolf, whose song "How Many More Years" was allegedly the song's inspiration. Listening to both songs side-by-side, I honestly can't hear any similarities, other than the lyrical themes.
3. "Whole Lotta Love" (1969)
Written by Willie Dixon and originally performed by Muddy Waters, "You Need Love" was actually stolen by two bands. The Small Faces recorded a song called "You Need Loving" in 1966 without giving credit to Dixon, while Led Zeppelin recorded the classic "Whole Lotta Love" in 1969, which takes some lyrics from Dixon's song. Led Zeppelin would be sued over the song in 1985, though the Small Faces never faced any legal action.
4. "The Lemon Song" (1969)
Another song that Led Zeppelin allegedly took from Howlin' Wolf was Led Zeppelin II's "The Lemon Song." Though I didn't see the similarities between "How Many More Years" and "How Many More Times," "The Lemon Song" does sound a whole lot like Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor," with a similar riff and lyrics. The song's titular "lemon" is also taken from another old blues song: Robert Johnson's "Travelling Riverside Blues."
5. "Bring It On Home" (1969)
Led Zeppelin II's closing track "Bring It On Home" is divided into two distinct sections. The extended intro, which comes back around at the end, is a tribute to "Bring It On Home" by Sonny Boy Williamson, written by Willie Dixon, while the song's rocking middle section was written by Jimmy Page and Robert Plant. However, the entire song was credited to Page and Plant, but was corrected in 1972 to include Dixon.
6. "Since I've Been Loving You" (1970)
One of Jimmy Page's greatest performances comes from Led Zeppelin III with the blues ballad "Since I've Been Loving You," credited to Page, Robert Plant, and John Paul Jones. However, the song's mellow atmosphere is very reminiscent of Moby Grape's "Never," and even "shares" some lyrics with that song as well.
7. "In My Time of Dying" (1975)
One instance of blatant plagiarism that the members of Led Zeppelin were never sued over was Physical Graffiti's epic "In My Time of Dying." The song was credited to all four members of the band, despite the fact that it's a well-known traditional gospel song that has been covered by many people, including Bob Dylan. Because it's traditional, no one is able to claim ownership and sue Led Zeppelin over its supposed authorship.
And thats just to name 7...and that list does not include "Stairway To Heaven" (1971)...which was the topic of the original post.
Now as I stated earlier in my post, Iv'e been a fan of Zeppelins' music for many a long time, growing up with three older brothers it was like a backing track growing up in the 70s' as it was literally all they played, which had a big influence on me musically and helped shape my love of Zeppelin and their music.
TBH throughout my teenage years they would have no doubt been my favorite band out of a host of classic 70s' hard rockers that influenced what I listened to...
So I'm not having a dig for the sake of it, I am just stating my own observations, and the observations of many who came before me, in regards to a topic which has been the subject of much discussion before now.
It can also be argued that you would have to go far back to the origins of music to find songs that didn't borrow, either intentionally or accidentally, from others.
Lets face it, there are only so many notes, scales, chord progressions, styles etc, that you can go by...(but in the long run...) ;)
It can also be said that those whose style influenced each of us musically has an influence on how we each perceive music, therefore having a bearing on how we each individually perform it.
There is a fine line between being influenced by, and blatantly borrowing from others work without giving due credit where credit is due (and thus having to pay due royalties)
IMO I see no difference in what Led Zeppelin did in their time and what many so-called pop & rap "artists" do today by sampling the work of others and calling it a new song...only that Led Zeppelin "sampled" others work by actually playing and performing it, not cutting and pasting it, taking from a sample library, or recording a sample off a record.
To quote Kurt Foster ...now I'm donning my flamesuit and awaiting replies....;)
IMHO, FWIW. :D
"There is no doubt Jimmy Page knows his way around the neck of a
"There is no doubt Jimmy Page knows his way around the neck of a guitar, that goes without question...and I don't think that is the issue here."
It was in respect to what Donnie said.
I say let the lawyers do what lawyers do...pollute. And I will enjoy the music because I understand the roots of rock. Do you guys listen to classical music? If Bach's lawyer was still alive, boy...what a shark fest that would be.
Brien Holcombe, post: 437927, member: 48996 wrote: "There is no
Brien Holcombe, post: 437927, member: 48996 wrote: "There is no doubt Jimmy Page knows his way around the neck of a guitar, that goes without question...and I don't think that is the issue here."
It was in respect to what Donnie said.
I say let the lawyers do what lawyers do...pollute. And I will enjoy the music because I understand the roots of rock. Do you guys listen to classical music? If Bach's lawyer was still alive, boy...what a shark fest that would be.
My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular...and I wasn't having a go at you Brien...not at all...so I hope you don't think I was;)
I enjoy Led Zeppelins' music, don't get me wrong. I also understand the roots of rock, the foundation that it was built on, also the influence of early blues music on artists in the 50s' like Elvis & Chuck Berry...and also the likes of Page, Clapton, Beck, Lennon & MacCartney who followed in the 60s'.
And you are right about Johann Sebastian Bach...
Check out the scary eyebrows on the chick at the 6 minute mark :eek:
@Brien Holcombe @Sean G I don't believe that anyone would arg
@Brien Holcombe @Sean G
I don't believe that anyone would argue that LZ wasn't influential, or that they didn't offer up plenty of great music. They've become iconic; firmly entrenched as a musical force that's now considered to be a watershed in the history of rock.
But, as Sean mentioned, there have been a few cases where their "originality" was in doubt. That said, I also believe that they managed to successfully interpret material, making those songs in question much more commercially accepted than the original versions ever would have been.
I'm not downplaying the talent of Howlin' Wolf, or Willie Dixon, (or any of the other artists that wrote songs that LZ took ideas from), but those artists were really only listened to by hardcore blues aficionados.
None one of those artists- not even Spirit - were ever going to be as successful as LZ was.
And, yes, it's true - rock and roll has stolen from itself hundreds of times; 1950's Doo-Wop was built on the foundation of the 1/6min/4 /5 chord progression; and the 1-4-5 / 1-5-4 progression has been used many times; from Twist and Shout and Louie Louie, to Hang On Sloopy and Good Lovin'... and, how many 12 bar blues songs have there been? Uncountable.
But I think that LZ did more than just cop a simple and generic 1/4/5 chord progression; they took it further than that. Taurus is an example of this.
I'm a proponent for giving credit where credit is due, and I think that LZ has "misrepresented" themselves several times over the years, claiming to be the writers - the originators - of these songs - instead of being honest about it, and saying that they were the interpreters.
If they had been honest, I don't believe that it would have affected their level of success. It may have affected the money they made from royalties - but they'd still have the same fans, still would have sold out arenas globally, and still would have had the same amount of records that went multi-platinum.
IMHO of course.
LOL-- all of the above is me, Brien. ;)
"ohh yeah? what are you going to do about it?" ...... Peter Gran
"ohh yeah? what are you going to do about it?" ...... Peter Grant was Zep's manager and he had a gangster approach. i suspect that Spirit was quietly informed to not rock the boat or something bad could happen. 25 years out, the threat has diminished, the court claims begin to come to the surface.
Kurt Foster, post: 437944, member: 7836 wrote: Peter Grant was Z
Kurt Foster, post: 437944, member: 7836 wrote: Peter Grant was Zep's manager and he had a gangster approach
Yep...us Grants' are a war clan from the highlands...paid mercenaries who, when not fighting another clans' battles were busy fighting amongst ourselves....lol
And the last to bear arms in the highlands ;)
Sean G, post: 437956, member: 49362 wrote: Yep...us Grants' are
Sean G, post: 437956, member: 49362 wrote: Yep...us Grants' are a war clan from the highlands...paid mercenaries who, when not fighting another clans' battles were busy fighting amongst ourselves....lol
And the last to bear arms in the highlands ;)
And us Thompsons' were spending time with your women and drinking your scotch while you were off fighting in the Highlands. ;)
DonnyThompson, post: 437961, member: 46114 wrote: And us Thompso
DonnyThompson, post: 437961, member: 46114 wrote: And us Thompsons' were spending time with your women and drinking your scotch while you were off fighting in the Highlands. ;)
Seriously Donny ????
- Have you seen our women ????
Thats' why we invented the single malt....;)
Sean G, post: 437962, member: 49362 wrote: Seriously Donny ????
Sean G, post: 437962, member: 49362 wrote: Seriously Donny ????
- Have you seen our women ????
Thats' why we invented the single malt....;)
Which is why we drank the scotch first.
Sean G, post: 437963, member: 49362 wrote: thae be braw bonnie Hielan lasses...
Yup... the ex wife was of Scottish descent, and she was an auburn haired, blue eyed, 105 lb knockout... who had absolutely no trouble putting me under the table when it came to drinking Glen Fiddich. ;)
My sister was a Highland Sword Dancer - who also had no trouble putting me under the table when it came to drinking Glen Fiddich.
Something about Scottish women... man, they can drink.
No, I’m not dead. This is Jim Wagner resurfacing because of my
No, I’m not dead. This is Jim Wagner resurfacing because of my friend Tony.
A good article referenced Tom Petty’s problem with Sam Smith and my problem with Tom Petty.
google / Tom Petty Sam Smith Jim Wagner
Before we lost Tom, he said in a documentary that when you are moved by a song it gets internalized and expressed by the listening songwriter. He said it happens and it’s all right.
The world lost out. I summarized the 60’s in four minutes and that summary is rendered dead according to a musicologist who worked for Tom Petty. He wrote saying, “Let your song die a peaceful death.”
I survived it.
Jw
Nice talking about Led Zeppelin...... In my young years I was hu
Nice talking about Led Zeppelin...... In my young years I was hugely influenced by the bassplaying of John Paul Jones. And of course I liked Led Zeppelin as a whole, and still do in fact. In the early '90 s I visited a concert of Page and Plant - No Quarter Tour. I was amazed by it, and lately playing lots of songs of LZ, I realize I wittnessed something special.......
For what it's worth...There have been several 'estates' that ben
For what it's worth...There have been several 'estates' that benefitted from the plagiarism demonstrated by The Zep. And why not. That machine is still generating income as new generations learn about what they were still are. If I'm not mistaken, one of the main reasons besides Bonzo checking out that they didn't want to tour any longer is because they felt they would be just another tribute band playing their own material from back in the day.
Seems reasonable.
People riff others' stuff often, but the honest ones come right
People riff others' stuff often, but the honest ones come right out and tell you. As it should be. If it's good enough to heavily-influence you, it's good enough to send folks to the source. A lot of the great '60s British artists were adamant about telling the world who they were influenced by, and whose songs they were covering. Which was mostly heavily black American blues and R&B artists. In fact, they exposed white Americans to the great music being hidden from them, right in their midst. The Stones, Beatles, Mayall, Peter Green, Clapton, etc., had no reservation about crediting an actual cover, or the the influence of the borrowed riff they used. They resurrected, and even power-fueled, the careers of many of those black musicians who had been ripped-off in contracts, used...but pretty much boycotted on mainstream radio, and then cast aside, many destitute and broken. Credit British artists like the Stones for even performing WITH their heroes, and exposing them to a wider audience. Credit the Europeans who toured acts like "The American Folk Blues Festival" (which actually started out as "The American Negro Blues Festival) all over Europe. Credit the sailors who found and brought blues and R&B records to Europe's shores from America, and the British, especially, soaking it all in like a sponge, and then squeezing out a higher-energy mixture of their ingrained influences and their newfound injection of raw emotion, topical subject matter, in-your-face rhythm, and loose-but-authoritative guitar playing that allowed the notes to say just as much as the words.
The guys that had the most respect might have found a way to get royalties to their particular influencer. SOME of it may have actually been an unintentional cop, as they may have stumbled onto something they may have heard years before while noodling around, but it was subconsciously riffed without realizing it? But, that's probably a small minority. Most people realize it, even accidentally, in that they think "Hmmm...that sounds familiar."
Depending on the blues artist, SOME of them may have even just thought "Well, you revived my career, I'm doing GREAT now, so don't worry about any royalties. The royalty is that you got people to appreciate what I do!" Can't blame ANY, though, for wanting their due, after a lifetime of creativity, hard work, low (or no) pay and getting ripped off by record executives and A&R blood-suckers. The royalty thing also depends on whether the artist still even has a contract with the leeches.
Unfortunately, SOME artists weren't as generous with "sharing their little secrets", and ripped off riffs without citation. Intentionally. Maybe it's an ego thing? A greed thing? Once...may be an oversight. It's not when you have made a habit of it, and have made MILLIONS of dollars by letting people think you actually came up with that genius music or lyrics. Won't name names, but SOME people are notorious for that, despite their actual genius, actually creating something new and different.
Anyway, all of us grab stuff from here, from there, from anywhere, and anyone creative tries to reconfigure it all into something unique. The best ones make it listenable, and marketable.
I heard something a couple weeks ago that I haven't heard in MANY, MANY years. If ever a case for ripping off a riff could be made, it's this one. But, I don't remember Canned Heat having a lawsuit against ZZ Top over it? Of course, I was pretty young when "Fried Hockey Boogie" came out, and I seem to remember my older cousin playing it. Hadn't heard it since, until a couple weeks ago. Of course, Canned Heat kept it no secret that they were dipping into the same stream as John Lee Hooker and his "Boogie Chillen'", as many others have done. But, 'Fried Hockey Boogie' DOES have a different 'flourish' of the fingers at the end of the 'chugs'. "Spirit In The Sky", a BIT different. George Thorogood built his entire career off Hooker riffing (and booze songs).
But, nothing I have ever heard comes so close to being a direct riff-rip than the Canned Heat song (1969?) compared to the ZZ Top song (1973). I even thought about doing flying them both in to my computer, and doing a mashup of the two intermixing! Someone already thought of that (but it would be cool to try to transition back and forth sections, also)! Look up "Fried LaGrange".
Anyways...if THIS isn't a riff-rip, NOTHING is! (Maybe they all just laughed about it, and Canned Heat said "Hell NO, we're not gonna sue YOU for ripping off a riff that WE basically copped!")?
(BTW, ya think there MIGHT be just a BIT of good ol' germanium Fuzz the guitar player used for his solo?!) 11 minutes of...well...here ya go.:whistle:
Kapt.Krunch
Kapt. Krunch, You have a lot of knowledge about lifting riffs a
Kapt. Krunch,
You have a lot of knowledge about lifting riffs and not giving credit.
It’s was very painful to have my song turn into a hit song, hit album and national tour with my song rendered dead. I could not pick up my guitar for a year. I lost years fighting for what is right. It took years to move on.
I thought meaningful songs were meant to help this world. They are not written to be rendered dead as stated by a known musicologist in this matter.
I did a very nice thing writing a song about a DJ who kept the optimism of the 60’s alive. I did not deserve to go through this.
Human beings must learn how to care for each other. If we don’t change, the future will continue to repeat itself.
If there are any harsh comments to me, I will not spend another moment on this site.
My best,
Jw
Jim Wagner, post: 466043, member: 52098 wrote: Human beings must
Jim Wagner, post: 466043, member: 52098 wrote: Human beings must learn how to care for each other. If we don’t change, the future will continue to repeat itself.
If there are any harsh comments to me, I will not spend another moment on this site.
Isn't that the truth. No need to run for the hills! We are usually very respectful here. Someone once told me, we make a difference around our adversaries. Being said... I found your comments interesting. You are always welcome to share how you can make a difference to our readers.
Spirit must be "getting the band back together" and need some bu
Spirit must be "getting the band back together" and need some buzz.
As far as ripping off goes, all of rock owes the Blues "a haw haw haw" ;)