Bri,
Welcome to RO! The review of the Yamaha MSP5's is on its way as we speak. Keep an eye out..

The only experience I have personally had with Dynaudios were in a studio where they had the big soffit mounted ones and once when an engineer that booked my old studio brought in a pair of the samller ones..the BM6A's I did not hear any sense of them being hyped at all. These are excellent monitors from what I have heard of them.

If you want to do mastering, you are going to want to get as close to the fullest range speakers you can (the biggest) with extended bass response. You also need to take into consideration if your listening enviornment can handle all the deep low end. If it can then proceed. If you have doubts, you should think about doing something to remedy the listening situation before you stick a set of monitors in there that go to 30 Hz... Kurt

Thanks for your quick reply and advice, Kurt. I will keep an eye out for that MSP5 review. ;)

Hey Bri, I was really really close to buying the mackies after reading the prorec article. Like a week before I was going to bring them home and check them out I read the opinions here and a few other places. After really reading and re-reading what was being said here I changed my mind.

But, you already have them. If you've adapted to them-- just like you'd have to adapt to what ever monitor you buy (I mean it is like buying an Alembic bass or your first really nice tube amp if you're a guitarist: you still have to learn to use the gear which is very different than playing a cheap solid state amp or a cheaper bass because they respond different)-- then shouldn't you consider sticking with them?

I mean if you're not getting the results you've hoped for with them in terms of your mixes, then you should switch; but if your working fine with them and you're not like due for an upgrade then why not stick with them?

For me, I'm stuck with my monitors (Adam p-11's); I mean I'm happy with them, they are my first real monitors so I don't have any frame of reference to judge them with yet, I've only had them like a month, but I can't imagine being able to afford bigger or "better" unless the lottery gods smile fortuitously on me.

I've got preamps to upgrade, could always use more mics, etc, and acoustic treatments that will make bigger improvements in my monitoring and recordings. I bet most people here could say the same, almost regardless of what their set up is. I'm not trying to talk you out of buying differnent monitors, I just raise these ideas because if you are working well with the Mackies then you should at least consider holding off on switching.

As many experts here and elsewhere have knocked the Mackies, I don't think many would say dump them if you already own them and can't return them.

Bri,

I never contribute to threads like this, but I'll make an exception this one time.

A lot of people like the Mackie 824s a lot, and I'm one of them. They are clean, accurate, and have very low distortion. Pick a brand and model of anything, not just audio gear, and you'll find people who love 'em and people who hate 'em.

That said, the acoustic quality of your room is at least as important as the speakers you use, and probably even more so.

--Ethan

Originally posted by Ethan Winer:
Bri,
The acoustic quality of your room is at least as important as the speakers you use, and probably even more so.

--Ethan

Of course you would say that, seeing as your focus is in acoustics and room treatments :D (good natured rib, not flame). I would say as important, but crap into a "perfect space" would still be crap. Transducers are an equally important part of the equation ...

Kurt,

> crap into a "perfect space" would still be crap. Transducers are an equally important part of the equation

Absolutely. But Mackie 824s are hardly "crap."

If folks want to attack a popular but truly crappy loudspeaker, Yamaha NS-10s are surely deserving. I have a pair sitting on stands right in front of me. Now these are surely crap. I bought them 25 years ago, and the only reason I still have them is I'm waiting for their resale value to go up a little more. Yes, I am serious.

--Ethan

Ethan,
I never said they were (at least not in this thread) and IMO, the Mackie monitor question is a dead horse that has been beaten at least one too many times. All the answers to this are in previous threads.

(Dead Link Removed)

(Dead Link Removed)

I was addressing this;

That said, the acoustic quality of your room is at least as important as the speakers you use, and probably even more so.

I don't think it is a case of even more, but a case of at least as important ...

Kurt,

> at least as important

Agreed. Deal.

But how about this: The choice of speakers is more important at mid and high frequencies, but the room is more important at low frequencies. At least this is how I see it. Clarity is indeed a tweeter issue, but even the finest speakers have a badly skewed low end response in just about any untreated room you put them in.

--Ethan

Ethan,
I agree 100%! Like I said though, You can use cheap $.99 a loaf white bread or the best Multi Grain $3.00 a loaf bread but if you smear sh*t on it you still come up with a sh*t sandwich! :D

Hey everyone, thank you for your knowledge and advice. Musicalhair, I'm with you on the "lottery gods" issue. :)

I've never really been able to get used to/adapt to the Mackies, and I am definitely aware that the room acoustics are just as important. Ironically, Ethan, that is something I've been wanting to discuss with you for awhile now...I'm glad you were motivated to post a reply. I've been writing up a description and questions concerning a studio space I've been building which I'll post over in the acoustics forum if that's okay. :) Is it possible to add a sketch of the room along with a post?

Kurt, I have many more questions that I know you can answer, considering your experience. I'll space them out over time so I won't be a bother. ;)

Thank you everyone, I do value all your opionions.

Bri,

> I've never really been able to get used to/adapt to the Mackies

Well, there's certainly no arguing with that. But I think the Mackies are great, as do an awful lot of other people I know. Often, the real problem is the room. In most rooms early reflections off the side walls sends the left channel to your right ear and vice versa. So of course the imaging will be strange. And if the room has too much ambience, and that ambience is not "directed" properly, that too makes listening wierd and fatiguing.

> I'll post over in the acoustics forum if that's okay.

Of course.

To post an image you need to put it on a web server somewhere, and then you can include the URL of the picture in the message to make it display automatically.

--Ethan

Kurt,

> All the answers to this are in previous threads.

The most amazing thing about those threads is that in hundreds of posts the word "trap" was mentioned only once, by Bill Roberts, who said in passing that they might help low end problems.

You know my position on this, and I saw that you even agreed with me that at low frequencies, anyway, the room is usually more important than which speaker you use. So when someone in a room having no acoustic treatment says Brand X has more or better or clearer bass than Brand Y, all I can think of is the speakers were moved a little, or some other room-related issue is the real cause of the differences. In an untreated room it's very difficult to hear what the heck each speaker really sounds like below a few hundred Hz.

--Ethan

Ethan,
I agree that all rooms need trapping and probably some other treatments to make them useable. I am sure that most of the comments contained there assume that room treatments were done.

If you read those threads (as I know you have) please take note of the parts that speak about the linearity of the Mackies vs. other speakers..

No amount of trapping or room treatments are going to change those characteristics, If a speaker has a different response at different spl's IMO, it's worthless. Linearity is what made the NS10 such a great speaker. K.

Regarding the 824Mackies, they are the most controversial monitors I've seen people talk about on the net, never even heard them myself.
But I've also noticed people agree upon the smaller Mackie model, the 624's,being a great unit, both users and reviewers, so why not have a listen to those puppies??
And as Kurt said here above, the Yamaha msp5's seem to be a great deal. If I remember correctly, it was RecorderMan who brought those to our attention, and I think most of us can agree that he knows his $hit ;)

:) Hey guy's, and ladies, what we need is a monitor doctor that makes house calls. :D

If you are undecided about which to purchase, or what to look for in a monitor. The monitor doctor will set up a pair quality monitor speakers in your living room, with your (hopefully decent amp). The kind of speaker that does the job.

Not expensive ones, but studio proven ones. After the end of the day, you can hook up your test run choice of speaker, and judge for yourself.

You will hear any nonlinear dynamic response immediately. The bass will vary at certain levels, and frequency's, giving a confusion in dynamics and EQ perception, regardless of room treatment.

Not that it couldn't use treatment, the ugly sound will be heard, treatment or not. So you have to know what it is you have to treat, the room, or attempt to makeup for a lousy speaker.
Maybe we need a bass trap doctor too! Do you make house calls Ethan? :D Dr. Ethan Winer, Ba.Ss.

--Rick

I just unboxed the MSP5's today and set them on the meter bridge. I have to figure out a way to hook them up so I can switch between the MSP5s and the NS10s and compare them.. The MSP5s are powered and the NS10s are passive... As soon as I work this out, I will let you all know my impressions.. Kurt

:) Kurt, use a couple bus outs!

Just a suggestion,

--Rick

Rick,
No that won't work. I have a SMackie mixer that I use only to monitor while I track for reference. I would never want to do any critical listening or route to the recorder through it.. (expensive ears, remember?) .. I normaly monitor through a Nakamichi 450 pre amp into Haffler P3000s. I need a passive switcher between the Nak and the Hafflers that I split off to the MPS5s.. I think I found a solution, an old passive tape routing switch I have dug up. Thanks for the suggestion... Kurt

Kurt,

> I am sure that most of the comments contained there assume that room treatments were done.

I doubt that very much. Even you didn't have acoustic treatment until very recently. BTW, you never reported on your FoamByMail purchase. How did that work out?

> If you read those threads (as I know you have)

No, sorry, I did not read every single word. :D

--Ethan

E,
Well to each his own. I didn't have treatments up because I just set my system up having moved from CA to Oregon in '01.. As far as the NS10's, what is it about them you don't care for? I myself couldn't get along without them. Funny thing is, I haven't seen the Mackies in use in very many pro rooms while NS10's are still widely in use.. Perhaps you like the Mackies for their extended and inaccurate bass response, necessitating the need for bass trapping? :D (just kidding)

The foam thing hasn't come together yet. Btw, it isn't foam by mail, I opted for a company that makes fire proofed foam instead. They sent me a couple box's of product but when I opend it it turned out to be 2" foam... useless.. K.

Kurt,

> As far as the NS10's, what is it about them you don't care for?

Mostly their horribly colored frequency response. They have no real low end, only a slightly better high end, and they have a nasty 4 dB dip centered around 400-500 Hz. I assume the dip was added on purpose to make them less boxy sounding, since they were originally intended as consumer speakers where such coloration can make one speaker sound better than the others in a noisy HiFi showroom. At least that's my theory and I'm sticking with it. :D But the 400 Hz hole is real, and I've measured it in both of my NS10s.

> I haven't seen the Mackies in use in very many pro rooms while NS10's are still widely in use

Few truly pro studios use any of the speakers we see in typical home studios. There's no doubt the NS10s have become a standard. Not because they are excellent, but because everyone has them. If speakers as excellent as the Mackie HR824s were around in the 1970s when the NS10s became popular, I'm quite sure it's the "vintage Mackies" that would be prized today.

Don't discount the value of Mackie's integral feedback. This is a great way to create extremely accurate speakers, and I think mackie did this really well. If 824s don't sound good in your room, I have to conclude it's the room. :D :D :D

> I opted for a company that makes fire proofed foam instead.

So what brand did you buy/order?

--Ethan

Ethan,
I recived some product from a company called Home Studio Foam.. but like I said, it's 2" foam.. it is not going to do the job at all. :( So I guess I am back to square one..

I am thinking about some acoustical tile for the ceiling and then pehaps 4 to 6 of your mini traps.

I have this acoustical tile on the ceiling in one of the bedrooms of my house (it was there when I moved in) and it really tames the room down. It would make a great drum room but presently it is my Dads room. But I am thinking of using this stuff in my mixing room and in a small room that is adjacent that I am thinking of turning into a tracking room (it serves as my office now).

Kurt,

(Ethan i hope you don't mind my responding to this)

I have had great luck with conventional ceiling tile (12"x 12" ) for use in control room and iso-booth construction.

It seems the cheaper the better as well.

But it seems to work best when glued on - not stapled. We always have put it up over drywall - not installed to furring directly attached to the ceiling joists.

I hope this helps buddy,

Happy Hunting and have a great weekend my friend,

:p:

Rod

Kurt,

> I am thinking about some acoustical tile for the ceiling and then pehaps 4 to 6 of your mini traps.

Four to six MiniTraps will do a great job for you. Send me an email and I'll give you my best advice.

> I have this acoustical tile ... would make a great drum room

Yes, especially if you put some fiberglass above it to extend the absorption to a lower frequency. Then a reflective floor will give you some great drum room ambience. My partner Doug just did that in his live room, and it made a real improvement over his previous standard office style ceiling and carpetted floor.

--Ethan

Rod,

> I have had great luck with conventional ceiling tile

The problem with conventional tiles is they absorb only the upper frequencies. They do look good, but I prefer to back them up with something more substantial, like a foot of fluffy fiberglass or four inches of 705.

--Ethan

Ethan,
In my case as I have said before the room is fairly large... 14' x 18'.. but the cieling is low.. 7'7". Bass isn't that much of a problem in the room. That's why I was thinking of a few mini traps and the tile. I also have 2 large futon style chairs in the room for listeners.. so I think they are doing some bass trapping on their own.. So don't you think that would do the trick for me?? K.

Hey Kurt, Ethan. Since you mentioned foam, insulation, traps, and room size, I thought I'd ask Ethan a quick question.

My room is similar to Kurt's...it's 19'x13'x7'. I do have questions regarding it's construction relative to function, but I'll go into more depth in the "acoustics forum" if that's more appropriate. However, I am curious. I have left over "sound barrier"(1/8" mass loaded vinyl), and 3.5" Ultratouch insulation...I'm sure you're aware of it's specs, but here's a link to the Ultratouch insulation's NRC values anyway: http://www.bondedlogic.com/UT_Specifications.asp

Can these two materials be used for some significant bass trapping, and can you give me a general idea of the necessity for that trapping(what the bass response may be) given the room's dimensions? If you need more specifics regarding the room construction let me know. Thanks :)

Kurt, did that old tape routing switch work out for your MSP5/NS10 comparison? I'm eager to hear your opinion. :)

Thanks again --Brian

Kurt,

> the cieling is low

That's one good reason to make the ceiling very absorbent. As you've probably heard me say, a totally absorbent ceiling is equivalent acoustically to an infinitely high ceiling. But to make that work well the ceiling's absorption has to extend down to at least the low midrange.

> Bass isn't that much of a problem in the room. That's why I was thinking of a few mini traps and the tile.

I've never seen a room that couldn't have its low end tightened considerably, regardless of its size and shape. I agree with the idea of tiles on the ceiling, but it would be even better if you had more substantial absorption above the tiles. Is there any way to pack fiberglass above the ceiling?

> I also have 2 large futon style chairs

It's hard to imagine those would do a whole lot at low frequencies. Maybe if they have a plastic covering rather than soft fabric. Then you'd get some sort of membrane behavior. Does the low frequency sound change much with the chairs in the room versus not in the room? That will tell you how much bass they absorb.

--Ethan

Brian,

> I'll go into more depth in the "acoustics forum" if that's more appropriate.

Yes, and we've already been discussing the UltraTouch stuff there.

--Ethan

Originally posted by Bri:

Kurt, did that old tape routing switch work out for your MSP5/NS10 comparison? I'm eager to hear your opinion. :)

Thanks again --Brian

Brian,
Yes I did and it works like a charm! I can now switch between the NS 10’s, my Tannoy DMT 12's, my Auratones and the Yamaha MSP5's.. After some tweaking to get the volume levels matched as closely as possible I did some mixing and listening to them this morning, on fresh ears.. I will say that I like the MSP5’s very much but they do not sound exactly like NS10’s.. That may be good or bad depending on how you feel about NS10s. :D I find the MSP5's to have more highs and punchier lows, in spite of the fact that the MSP5’s have smaller woofers. They do seem to be very similar to NS10’s in the mids, which is what I like about NS10’s. The MSP5’s have some attenuation and boost switches for the tweeter and woofers but I haven’t messed with them yet. At the moment they are set in the flat positions. I should have a full review shortly, keep a watch.. Kurt