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New rig from scratch, thoughts good and bad!

hey all!

Im putting watever I have that is money or worth it. For better or worse. Born sort of necessity and a hunch that I might have a real shot, my gear purchases will be on the standard-high level commercial level, leaving boutique for my dreams luck and maybe DIY. This gear should hold about 65% of its value for at least 5 years. Depending of the buisness structure and depreciation method used for the papers that'll work itself out to a number I can prove. But by quick guess is based on the trends I've noticed from gear mags over the years, particularly the highest priced stuff.

I prefer gear that appreciates in value, like nice guitars, amps, and my trusty 414, but like my dad said if you can't hang with the big dogs, don't leave the porch. So with gear this level, you get quiet a bit of versatile connectivity with its digital interfaces and connection options. The price is eventual obsoletesence, or perhaps adoring novelty status. I'm not shooting for Sony, just yet, but I should be able to handle a national blues acts mix stems from the local zeteoroin theater. I think I am ready to test my capabilities with the best out there. the ability to be mobile, industry quality, and high data thru put, is going to propel my multimedia company vision.

My base requirements are top notch conversion, simplicity, and modular. Modular reasoning is to allow each function I need has its own device that does that specifically well. As the gear wears on and becomes obsolete, I can replace sections at a time. Even if the whole thing was replaced at once, modular units and all in one's at the top level seem to cost about the same ballpark.

The systems technical goals:

Wireless/remote controllable

Top conversion

Simple universal connection to various standard equipment (live, studio, broadcast/video)

Dsp based processing

5.1/7.1

Ability to track (stereo minimum)

Extremely flexible, but simple routing (trying to avoid analog patchbayof possible)

No wasted space, power

No limits on the system as its works as a whole (no Le versions, etc.)

Limit manufacture, OS, incompatibilities, by using conventional and tested components.

Purpose:

To handle digital audio IO for a complete multimedia studio, with wireless data transfer, and remote computer/equipment control.

Semi portable, remote controllable audio IO nerve center for journeyman sound professional. Ability to track basic ideas with solo artists/songwriters and provide inspiring headphone mixes. First class DA and monitoring for both 5.1 mixing compatibility, and for editing suite purposes.

The system as a whole will be like this. Mic->Pre/channel-strip->AD->CPU/DSP->DA->

For anything requiring sample rate conversion, it will hit (OB Optional)-> AD-> samplitube for 2/5.1mixdown/mastering.

I'm going to list the gear with a brief comment of purpose or reason. Any thoughts are welcome and this is just merely a conversation starter, as there are many many options out there. I want redundancy only where I want it, otherwise is money not maximized, which is what I need at this point.

Multirack/Mix CPU- Mac mini or TB2 compatible Mac pro tower

Mixdown/Network CPU- custom PC (i7or i5)

Burl Mothership (1 4ch BAD, 1 8ch BDA) module to start.

Cramesong Avocet 2- still thinking hard but with the built in DA it seems like a bit of a hike in sound quality vs. the dangerous st. That said, as soon as you talk 5.1 (which is a reasonable selling point for me) the avocet doubles in price... Something to strongly consider. But the digital IO in the base unit if the Cranseong is huge.

- incorperating the DA from the Burl and the monitor controller are crucial to this setup. This allows quite a few possibilities with the mixdown. hopfeully @audiokid chris can guide me with this end of the setup, because I think it's the most critical area of his setup, and I think he and boz have mastered that area of the whole process.

That leaves PT, PTHD as base multitrack DAW

And interestingly the UAD satellite quad is being included with the purchase of a UA 6176 which I'm sure is decent, but with the card its key to this system, so I'm weiging the options. It's that or for 1k just the card, and 3 plugins. One of the plugins is the 610, or maybe it's free, but I figure the real thing, plus a 1176 type thing night be better spent long term than a couple bonus pluginsfor my UAD card, at least initially.

I really hate combo units that compromise design like the 6176, but it's probably going to make a decent bass dI and eventually I'll get the retro sta level or 176, which I realy.l want the 176. I wish Neve was giving away a satalite instead...

That's the storm in this crazy brain for now. I'm going to define the whole package as I'm putting together the buisness plan and then see where it takes me. If things line up some projects will finish and I'll have some time off to restructure my personal setup which has been on hold the past couple years.

Focusrite RED Net would handle any other sort of intefacing that couldn't connect via Ethernet or thunderbolt. The selection of that line is great, and it's solid quality. The vk guy said something about them using it on the super bowl. Either way network based audio has to be my focus.

I have access to an amazing room with really good gear, and some great amps, etc, so that is where I will continue to record primarily for the foreseeable future. This setup is broadcast and multimedia focused so high level audio is required, so is versatility. With a growing podcast scene and my proximity to US Capitol cities, the possibilities are growing with each connection that comes together.

Comments

pcrecord Sat, 08/08/2015 - 05:06

Hey man, I wish I could be where you're at right now.. This become exhilarating when it's time to choose new tools and developp new professional activities !
I don't consider myself knowlegeable enough to suggest gear to you but I hope you'll post your progress here. I'm very interested to read about it ! ;)

kmetal Sat, 08/08/2015 - 09:35

Marco, I figured you'd be The guy to talk to about the computer aspect of it especially the mountain of networking and compatibility things something like this faces.

Much of this is speculation, and I would imagine it's going to take about a year to acquire at least the most basic form of this setup.

Between selling anything non essential, taking on a modest debt, and the requirement of me landing a steady gig (aiming at FOH at ne of the better music clubs around here). That's how I plan to pay for this stuff, but no gear until I have the steady couple nights.

audiokid Sat, 08/08/2015 - 18:56

I've been thinking about this thread and rather than me telling you what I think you should do, I'll tell you what I would and wouldn't.

I run from all Apple based dependent anything for starters. But, you may have your reasons for Apple. Gaming and PC goes hand and hand and PC is coming back with a vengeance. How do I know that? I don't. Its a hunch.
Samplitude is PC based, its a great gaming DAW as well as killer for mixing and mastering.

I've also been reading how people using Mac Mini to multi-track seem to be needing a masterclock. I wouldn't know why or what the deal is on this... but this is what I'm picking up on. Is there some clocking issue with the Mac Mini?

Monitoring
I'm glad you are seeing the love for a good monitor control system. To me this is without question the most important area of any pro studio. The Dangerous ST is awesome, but the new m905 from Grace Design looks really nice. No mater what you do with your DAW system, whether you stay 100% ITB, do two DAW etc, the best independent Monitor Control System you can get, the better, is how I hear it. It will teach you what others never hear as well. That's why people pay big bucks for these.

Mobile plus ADDA tracking
You mention something that will serve as a mobile tracking system. Well, I like Prism USB ADDA and their pre's. They have a variety of options to choose from, and I would look for used. Orpheus, Lyra, Atlas. All these are excellent top level combo's.

I would stay completely away from the Apollo and DSP bloat. Why do you need all that?

Keep in mind, I am clueless to why people keep investing in a system that you need to keep upgrading. I rely on my awesome monitoring more and use Sequoia which has everything from mixing and mastering plus a video/ broadcast add-on ( which I do not take advantage of because I'm not doing video).
Excellent conversion and excellent monitoring has changed my desire to acquire more gear and software. Thats what happens when you hear everything better.

Every year we are going to see leaps and bounds with conversion so I'd be careful not to put all my sound into one conversion system like UA. I feel this is for the less pro market. Its kind of a joke to me and I'm sure that will piss off those who have invested in this but it really isn't something I would every look at again.
I mean, a Pultec MEQ as a plug in. Or the Bax as a plug in. or an LA2A as a plug in.. its lame but thats just me.

Tracking
If I have a need to track more than 16 lanes at a time, I would probably look at the Antelope MP32 and the Orion 32 combo with a Madi RME interface.. What a killer setup.

Then add a few boutique pre's for your special tracks. I'd get at least one UA LA2A and UA 1176LN and if you really want to get special, I'd look at Pulse Technique for an outboard EQ.

Thats it. What more do I need but good computers and the DAW that is built or my requirements.
I'd include a second DAW for capturing, loaded with Sequoia for AV. And, I would also have Ableton.

Wireless is changing by the month so whats cool now is dated next month. I'd wait for this until the last minute. The tracking gear will always be in demand so thats where you can start looking now. Anything digital is on the need to have basis. .Once you get it, its worth half of what you paid for the next day.
If you can get a Bricasti, you have all you need for serious room emulation.

Hope that helps some.

kmetal Sat, 08/08/2015 - 23:41

I agree with a lot of what you say Chris.

The m905 is it, until further notice, it's the best by far for my case, and the versaiatily is all usefull, at a quality level short of botiqtue, wich is just where I need to be.

On Mac- I don't really like the idea of Mac, only because of being locked in. I am looking for the best way to be Mac compatible with the plethora of Mac towers out there. This is the very reason, besides video, for PTHD. The only reason. Ideally I would just have a Mac OS drive on a nice custom version of something,one this beast http://pcaudiolabs.com/rok-box-mc-64-thb/

But I'm not quite sure how all that dual OS thing works, wich made me think have o eh of each. The Mac mini has really not gotten good words from anyone I know. I think any sync problems relate to the 5200 rpm drive? The most expensive Mac mini has a fusion drive wich is hybrid flash/regular and downright scary and seemingly just transitional.

I only like this because I for $600 it's tough to beat, and it's got both thunderbolt 2 and Ethernet.

Using audio Dantes virtual sound card https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard it seemed like a great way to plug in the Dante enabled mothership DADA via Ethernet port, connect the satalite via TB, and be all connected with two or so cables.?

I would love to be able to not be chain to a Mac CPU, but have full capability to open Mac files seamlessly. If there is a way to do this I'm all ears. Mac was in the running mainly because my tablet and phone are Apple, and I'm tied into the studio valander via that. So I need some sort of compatibly just for this reason. I'm not going to switch tablets and phones at this point lol

PTHD is cross platform so I figured I can run it on both CPUs/drives. I think samplitube is going to play a great role, and probably will end up being my primary program for many things with its clean audio engine.

The UA- Apollo line is completely out, since I started thinking top notch it just didn't do it anymore. The satalite is a powerful little beast, and I'm still wondering how to else to get realtime effects, for the singers ect. I don't like the idea of of set of things for the cue and another for the the session, like when dsp is built into the interface like the motu cue mix. With all the digital connectivity I was thinking maybe a couple spx90s and print buses but I dunno how well synced that would all be, especially considering the ridiculous low latency of TB and gigabit.

As far as tracking goes, I don't need a lot of ad. 2-4ch is fine. That's where can go quality over quantity, and the Burl is looking sharp. Trannys in the AD, Vance Powell likes it for tape transfers, wich is going to serve my two 4-tracks well, and the Burl is Dante, madi, and digi link, capable with their respective cards (of course, lol).

I would otherwise get an Orion. I will use the studios I work at to track live basics, drums, and do my important mixing on the speakers in the main CR. my recording capabilities requirements would be met with the grace 905 alone, but as I wish to use the mixdown daw method from the get go, 2 sets of converters makes sense, and Burl again, is tough to beat from a quality/connectivity standpoint. Dante stuff is remote controllable.

Prism stuff rocks, and was direct comparison when I was looking into the ensemble, and I would have gone prism. I think I was turned off by the USB connectivity, but I need to look into them again before writing them off on this one.

I'm holding off on the contro,surface because the iPad will do. Dante has many partners not the least mod which Yamaha and AH, so I am confident in at least the 5-8 years I need out of the disposable part of the system, it will be supported. The rednet interfaces would be my choice in this case because they are affordable, and been used on some serious projects, and are broadcast quality, with remote Dante capability. But right mow the standalone conversion should be more than adequate. This is more future expand ability.

I think given the nature of this, I won't rush into the UA promotion. If it was neve, something I new I was going to get anyway I would jump. If it was $1600 and a free satalite quad, then it's a deal. But no need to rush.

The UAD plug are vst compatible so I think would move back and forth from SAM to PT. but again I'd like to test the capabilities of the stock software plugs, and I would not invest in more than a few UA aftermarket plugs. So stock pluggin power is esentail to me. Why? Everyone who has pt Sam or UA has the basic stock plugins. If i can get mileage out them great, less updates, subscriptions, junk ect.

So as long as the realtime processing I am not counting the UAD satellite as necessity, and consider it both disposable and perhaps a bit of a treat?

So to go Burl-cpu1-burl- summing- grace AD- CPU2- grace -DA monitoring. Is starting to look like it. Also some beyer dt-770s.

That gives me 4ch Burl, in 8 Burl out the 2ch in USB from the grace, and da, along with the ton of digital io. At this point I'm narrowing definate NOTs down, so I can start to work out the potentials into systems. I am gonna need to hear this stuff, and I will have to travel to do so. I want to make sure that I can simulate as close as I can in the store, what I will be using.

The mobile recording capability is something I'm researching and DAnte can take feeds from say an ls9 very easily, I'm trying to figure out if something like the rednet ADDA would be necessary or if the cat 6 will just carry the signal, and the virtual sound card will recognize it as discrete channels. This is a lot of brand new stuff to me.

It all seems a bit of a fantasy that I could possibly interconnect so easily simply a few Ethernet and TB cables. Seems too good to be true, but at the premium prices I feel justified in saying it'd be fair.

Check this out http://www.burlaudio.com/burl-audio-with-dante

audiokid Sun, 08/09/2015 - 08:17

kmetal, post: 431483, member: 37533 wrote: t all seems a bit of a fantasy that I could possibly interconnect so easily simply a few Ethernet and TB cables. Seems too good to be true, but at the premium prices I feel justified in saying it'd be fair.

The Burl stuff looks really smart. I think interfacing (including MIDU) is where we will be seeing the most improvement. The only way abalog cab improve is if its closer to digital. Which really becomes itb then.

I use the SSL XPatch which uses cat5 to interface and route gear, its excellent. I use it also to share files between both my DAWs.
There will be a day we are all connected to audio the same way we are connecting to the web. I mean, i bet everything will be seemless ni mater what siftware we are using to work with.

audiokid Sun, 08/09/2015 - 17:04

They are brilliant but best suited for the "less is more" hybrid approach, and probably easiest to understand and appreciate / make full use of these if you understand how to read and setup a digital matrix. I could spend an hour discussing all I did with these but its so damn difficult to explain on paper. Thats the biggest problem with them. They aren't for the guys who like wrangling cable.

I bought two and discovered one was all I needed to connect all my favourite tracking, mixing and mastering gear. Once setup I could switch the same hardware" on the fly" via mouse or midi command from tracking to mixing then mastering without ever unplugging a cable of the same product. And this includes routing the gear to two DAW's, two analog consoles and two separate converters directions . Digital patchbays allowed me to use the same tracking gear for hybrid mixing and mastering. Example, two LA2A could be used for tracking vocals and then without pulling a cable, I switched them over to my Mastering console where I used them in a M/S configuration. I Love them and would never look at a standard patchbay again.
I sensed those who appeared not to like these were coming at it from old school patchbays and/or had way too much gear for their own good. They are seemless and dead quiet. They are like having 2 Dangerous Liaisons and more.

They are no longer in production but I suspect we are going to see a new version that can route more gear. There is another product similar to them but I choose these because I like the name and the people who also like them.

pcrecord Sun, 08/09/2015 - 18:08

Of course, feel confident about computer setup suggestions but I'm more a PC guy than mac... :)
Nowaday, they keep getting similar at least for the hardware.
The big gray area is the HDD vs SSD choices. All I read tends to say that SSDs can now have as long as or even longer life than HDD.
I got my first defect SSD this week and altought this could alarm me, it had a positive side in how it got toward end of life and was still working to grab data on it.
What saved us (or the customer should I say) is that the system became very slow on certain operations, Specially hdd performances evaluation (the one of win7)
This gave us a doubt which was confirmed with the use of the exceptionnal free hdd verification tool Crystal disk info. The result was good but health status of 35%

So I'm not really fixed on what to do but I think I'm gonna try recording audio on an SSD (small one 128gig) and use a few HDD as long term and backup storage.
I just need the discipline to check it's integrity of the ssd every couple of weeks... !

I think the conclusion, at least for me, is to have simple habits of safe storage and maintenance and have backup for everything (OS, Data drives and offsite backups)

pcrecord Mon, 08/10/2015 - 05:11

The failed SDD wasn't in a recording computer. It was a laptop in a company and this is the first fail we have on more than 50 laptops in the last 3 years. So I'm not gonna say it's a high fail rate. Also, I didn't have the chance to ask the user how he used it. I'm guessing he was leaving it on 24/7. Some have laptops that never leave the docking station lol...

I intend to use a 128g as audio drive for a while and monitor its SMART status closely. Also, I want to compare speed and track count and plugins capacities.

kmetal Mon, 08/10/2015 - 12:04

Doing some budgeting today got the basics down (place/priceholder) trying to make sure each component is necessary. In the 2 daw system, would the 2nd set of DA (Burl), or is the Burl AD, and the graces ADDA enough.? I would like to have both sets reguardless, but I'm thinking minimalist at first, but have my expansion all planned out to a pre determined 'max' so I'm not caught in the needing to overhaul to add more capability. This is where I think the Dante is going to help. The DA from Burl, if not necessary bring me down to $6k for the basic audio components. That other $1800 would pay for most of the CPU(s) but this is purely academic. If the DA are going to be useful off the bat the their are in. I understand scaling of the system, but I don't want any sort of 'Le' type limitations.

audiokid Mon, 08/10/2015 - 20:33

I'm glad you did this budget because that was the next thing I wanted to discuss as well. (y)

Okay, so I understand your workflow.

Burl AD4 is for tracking, correct?
Burl DA8 is for mixing 8 lanes OTB, correct?

Then, in a 2 DAW system, how are you tracking to the second DAW? You are going to use the same AD4 to capture to the second DAW as well?

I'm not familiar with Burl so help me understand this. You need the Mothership for either AD or DA add-ons in this box which is acting like a 500 series rack box, correct? Which is adding the $1700 on top of this, just to have this open system?
And you are choosing this because you think you might need more converters down the road, correct?

audiokid Mon, 08/10/2015 - 21:28

This looks like an excellent system but I worry if it doesn't becomes dated really fast. I mean, Antelope Orion 32 gives you 32 ADDA for $2500. Its not as stellar as my Lavry or Prism and maybe the Burl but its got to be so damn close , whats the difference to me at this top level point. When you are comparing track count, I don't know if I would drop that kind of loot for this when converters are in such infancy.
Just thinking... If you keep your track count down to 16 channels, USB interfacing should do really well so that pretty much wipes out a few thousand $ in savings for the near future requirements. However, PCIe still is my preference for large multitrack audio interfacing.
I suspect this will change as PC get better and they sort out the USB3, TB and what to come...

Thats being said, the Burl (and Dante) looks really cool, it might just be amazing. I'd love to try them. I like the comment how he says, less plug-ins. Its awesome to see these people addressing what I believe too. The better front end, conversion and a 2 DAW approach, the less everything I need.
I'm really glad you are looking at Pro Audio like this Kyle.

The Grace looks really cool, but the ST is an incredible system too. And you can get those for $1500 used. That leave some extra cash for a great mastering ADDA.

I'm not trying to change your thinking, just adding more into the fire so you have more to think through.

Davedog Tue, 08/11/2015 - 19:29

Burl is the envy of all the kids on the block.

Now I realize that there will be naysayers and thats okay. What I know at this point is there are choices to be made that on the surface look like the same old-sameold but arent. And unfortunately for some gear, when your rep gets tarnished theres not a lot you can do to fix it even if the 'new' stuff is outstanding. And really the reasons its outstanding has everything to do with the quality of engineering and the level of the parts and components and not some sly bubbling brew of talking heads and relying on hearsay.....

That being said. NO! emphatically to the Mini. WHY? Not enough juice to provide headroom when crunching complicated numbers like a lot of tracks. Maybe it says its only using 15% of its ability but the truth is, it just can't do the math and supply everything else for the studio. Tracking on a laptop in remote Montana a track at a time and what a blessing these things are....Multimedia? Nope. PRO TOWER....Look at the power supply and decide....its really quite simple. Why Mac? They just work well. HDD= YES. Digital drives on the boot and HDD everywhere else. You want the speed and loading for PTHD.

And there ya go. PTHD...don't be afraid. Its everything in a multimedia set you could think of. Bad business and politics and all. Who says you have to upgrade??? There are records made today in studios working PTHD 7. They don't need all the editing and the interconnect that 12 or 11 or even 10 provides....but they also have great recording rooms.

The old PT sounds which have been mentioned on here forever were brought about by poor clocking and outdated conversion. Aint no zzzzz's in anything anymore. The bad mixes you hear everywhere TODAY have nothing to do with the systems and everything to do with the engineers skill set.

Which brings us here. Conversions and why they work and why some are better...I won't go into that. Burl is the shit. And you can add and subtract till your blue in the face. BUT....

Look at ANY converter upgraded by Black Lion Audio. There's a reason they are in most of the majors in Nashvillage and other recording meccas.....Look at what you would spend on a used Avid Omni and having it upgraded by Black Lion and put that in your budget. Be sure and go over the connectivity and the usage you would get. I have heard it up close and personal...(ie: Black Lion Omni)...through a couple of different high-end systems....its very real and make no mistake.

I'm just saying. There's a budget and then there's a real budget and getting what you want without shelling out the ranch and not compromising on sound.

The Rednet for interfacing with the cloud and everything else in filmdom is superior. It only gets better if you have a geek setting stuff up and building specific devices.

The Grace monitor controller is also a superior device but at a certain level, they all are...its going to be the value of what they offer besides controlling the monitors that will effect your choice. What do you NEED the box to do besides monitor control?? You can use the omni to run monitors in your room if thats all you need and its really really good....unbelievable huh...

I recently finished a full-length project. And I got to hear my mixes on my mastering engineers ATC three ways. You could hear the spit between peoples teeth when they sang. Some of this is a testament to my vocal chain and my techniques but the imaging and the clarity was beyond anything I have ever experienced. In the POP world these days...these are what all the producers cart around to jobs. There's a reason.

Which is another thing I'd like to point out. Clarity is back in full force. Choosing a DAW is more about how you like to work than what it sounds like. I used to think it was the sound of the equipment only but now its more what someone is capable of doing with the equipment. The sonic mistakes that we, as people who listen for that crap, isn't so much about what its being produced with but how its being produced.

This is an exciting time for you. My upgrade finished about a year ago and its been a great journey producing with the stuff I chose to work with. I compromised here and there but in the end all the compromises were made as budgetary restrictions and in the end the choice wound up being complimentary to the solid choices made without compromise. In this way the whole system functions as one and the results are pretty fine and its within my personal range of ability to use it for the best purpose of making great sounding records.

kmetal Wed, 08/12/2015 - 07:36

Thanks for the replies fellas, lots and lots to think about.

audiokid, post: 431510, member: 1 wrote: I'm glad you did this budget because that was the next thing I wanted to discuss as well. (y)

Okay, so I understand your workflow.

Burl AD4 is for tracking, correct?
Burl DA8 is for mixing 8 lanes OTB, correct?

Then, in a 2 DAW system, how are you tracking to the second DAW? You are going to use the same AD4 to capture to the second DAW as well?

I'm not familiar with Burl so help me understand this. You need the Mothership for either AD or DA add-ons in this box which is acting like a 500 series rack box, correct? Which is adding the $1700 on top of this, just to have this open system?
And you are choosing this because you think you might need more converters down the road, correct?

I'm trying to figure a workflow as well as the sytem in conjunction. My thought was track 2ch of Burl AD4, then stem/sum thru Burl DA8, then go into daw 2 thru ch 2/4 of the AD4. or into the grace via its 2x10 USB interfacing?

The mothership caught my eye because of its tranny's, its modularity, and yes Dante/madi/digi connection options. Being able to be remote controlled is huge, a feature rednet offers.

The $1700 upfront cost of the chassis is really what makes me want to be sure. Realistically I won't ever fill this thing completely.

When you look at conversion/clocking on the higher end stuff they are all expensive, the antelope eclipse being the device I am modeling sort of for price/vs features. At $6500 I think I can make something modular, of higher or matching quality, but not have to throw out the whole kit every 5 years when convrsion gets better.

audiokid, post: 431512, member: 1 wrote:

Thats being said, the Burl (and Dante) looks really cool, it might just be amazing. I'd love to try them. I like the comment how he says, less plug-ins. Its awesome to see these people addressing what I believe too. The better front end, conversion and a 2 DAW approach, the less everything I need.
I'm really glad you are looking at Pro Audio like this Kyle.

The Grace looks really cool, but the ST is an incredible system too. And you can get those for $1500 used. That leave some extra cash for a great mastering ADDA.

I'm not trying to change your thinking, just adding more into the fire so you have more to think through.

I'm using all new pricing for the sake of consistency and will trim some money by buying used or scratch and dent or just new on sale.

The dangerous is an obvious contender, and I like the 5.1 affordability. I also am comedies ing whether or not to have the DA built into the monitoring controller. I thinks it's the most 'affordable' way to get mastering-ish level DA.

If you compare the new asking prices between grace and dangerous units with the DA capabilities- the dangerous is $2k for the base unit and $1k for the DA unit (which is discontinued..) then that brings the total price of the dangerous unit(s) to $3k. About $500 less than the grace.

This is where is gets interesting. Because the dangerous would offer me surround capability for $1500 which is very interesting to me. I have to move from audio only, to multimedia with an audio focus, eventually, so I'm starting now. I more interested in being able to "monitor" surround, even if it's thru a decent home ent reciever at first, connected digitally, or a set of amps i get.

The grace is out of my budget for the surround capability at a cool $6k.

But... The grace offers quite a bit with their digital option, and the only monitor controller to have USB 2x10 recording capabilities. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how its functions, and would tie in to the system overall.

So I'm seeing only a small price difference similar quality, just a question of features.

kmetal Wed, 08/12/2015 - 08:44

Davedog, post: 431526, member: 4495 wrote: Burl is the envy of all the kids on the block.

Now I realize that there will be naysayers and thats okay. What I know at this point is there are choices to be made that on the surface look like the same old-sameold but arent. And unfortunately for some gear, when your rep gets tarnished theres not a lot you can do to fix it even if the 'new' stuff is outstanding. And really the reasons its outstanding has everything to do with the quality of engineering and the level of the parts and components and not some sly bubbling brew of talking heads and relying on hearsay.....

That being said. NO! emphatically to the Mini. WHY? Not enough juice to provide headroom when crunching complicated numbers like a lot of tracks. Maybe it says its only using 15% of its ability but the truth is, it just can't do the math and supply everything else for the studio. Tracking on a laptop in remote Montana a track at a time and what a blessing these things are....Multimedia? Nope. PRO TOWER....Look at the power supply and decide....its really quite simple. Why Mac? They just work well. HDD= YES. Digital drives on the boot and HDD everywhere else. You want the speed and loading for PTHD.

And there ya go. PTHD...don't be afraid. Its everything in a multimedia set you could think of. Bad business and politics and all. Who says you have to upgrade??? There are records made today in studios working PTHD 7. They don't need all the editing and the interconnect that 12 or 11 or even 10 provides....but they also have great recording rooms.

The old PT sounds which have been mentioned on here forever were brought about by poor clocking and outdated conversion. Aint no zzzzz's in anything anymore. The bad mixes you hear everywhere TODAY have nothing to do with the systems and everything to do with the engineers skill set.

Which brings us here. Conversions and why they work and why some are better...I won't go into that. Burl is the $*^t. And you can add and subtract till your blue in the face. BUT....

Look at ANY converter upgraded by Black Lion Audio. There's a reason they are in most of the majors in Nashvillage and other recording meccas.....Look at what you would spend on a used Avid Omni and having it upgraded by Black Lion and put that in your budget. Be sure and go over the connectivity and the usage you would get. I have heard it up close and personal...(ie: Black Lion Omni)...through a couple of different high-end systems....its very real and make no mistake.

I'm just saying. There's a budget and then there's a real budget and getting what you want without shelling out the ranch and not compromising on sound.

The Rednet for interfacing with the cloud and everything else in filmdom is superior. It only gets better if you have a geek setting stuff up and building specific devices.

The Grace monitor controller is also a superior device but at a certain level, they all are...its going to be the value of what they offer besides controlling the monitors that will effect your choice. What do you NEED the box to do besides monitor control?? You can use the omni to run monitors in your room if thats all you need and its really really good....unbelievable huh...

I recently finished a full-length project. And I got to hear my mixes on my mastering engineers ATC three ways. You could hear the spit between peoples teeth when they sang. Some of this is a testament to my vocal chain and my techniques but the imaging and the clarity was beyond anything I have ever experienced. In the POP world these days...these are what all the producers cart around to jobs. There's a reason.

Which is another thing I'd like to point out. Clarity is back in full force. Choosing a DAW is more about how you like to work than what it sounds like. I used to think it was the sound of the equipment only but now its more what someone is capable of doing with the equipment. The sonic mistakes that we, as people who listen for that crap, isn't so much about what its being produced with but how its being produced.

This is an exciting time for you. My upgrade finished about a year ago and its been a great journey producing with the stuff I chose to work with. I compromised here and there but in the end all the compromises were made as budgetary restrictions and in the end the choice wound up being complimentary to the solid choices made without compromise. In this way the whole system functions as one and the results are pretty fine and its within my personal range of ability to use it for the best purpose of making great sounding records.

MAC mini OUT!!! These are exactly the kind of prosumer compromises I am not willing to make with this 'high end' purchase.

I'm pricing out PC components now, so it's audio PC, or Mac tower. Either way, I need to be cross platform.

The Omni BLA is an interesting option. I'm going to look into its Dante compatibility. I am weary of buying another all in one, just because they get completely replaced. My old FW1814 done, digi002, done. They are really only useful for their digital connectivity at this point.

With modular, I'm trying to avoid a driver compatibility, software, update, or other CPU related issue, rendering my audio system completely obselete. The risk is being locked into some sort of format, like 500 series, or whatever.

The monitoring section/talkback will stay for a planned 15years, even if it's DA becomes obelete, so it needs a pure analog path. My main concern with these is the digital remotes. Which I hope lasts at least ten years, but expect 5 before the digital glitching starts.

The conversion is the most likely area I see evolving, and therefore becoming obelete. A $1500 rednet interface gets me 16x16 AD, via Dante in one unit. But the BURL brings me to what some people with no budget have chosen. They picked it cuz they liked it, not because it fit their budget.

My concern is if they are going to make a transformer less converter, and how controllable the color of the AD4 is. The combo of the Burl/rednet offers something of a journeyman/top end conversion section.

The DA card for the Burl is $1700 so perhaps, the rednet is a better purchase first? Leaving the Burl for it AD role?

I looked into the apogee ensemble 2 which I will compare to the OMNI when stop blabbering on this one.

PTHD is going to be an essential peice. I don't like my previous 7m powered experience. But I didn't get their best and their reccomend TDM PTHD system back then, and it's unfair for me to compare a best buy setup to their pro stuff.

The obnoxious part would be buying an HD native card, to get the software. If my system is based around Dante connectivity then the card ends up a waste. If I get the DIGI card for the mothership, then I can't remotely control the mothership.

This is where I'm running into the budgetary concerns because it could cause some waste. The money is what is is, I don't need a lot of peices, so the gear determines the budget, not the other way around. Within reason. 12k tops.

The Dante allows me to interface w Yamaha Allen and Heath and a few other common mixer brands. I think this might be an asset as I do live and installation work.

I'm most likely going to be going to NY to do work, or at least as far as there, and I need this system to keep up on that level of budget/quality. It's a 3 hour drive from my home base, but the rates are triple out there..

I also only require stereo recording capabilities, but 4ch or more is obviously welcomed.

My main tracking is done at the studio I work for. My setup is suppose to be a high end editing/montioring rig, that will stays with me (as much as possible) as I grow into my own profession room, in about 10 years or so.

The computer I think is the only place to go mid level, and I expect 3 years peak/current performance 5 years of operation, before overhaul.

The dsp controlled corsair power supply HX1000i, has a seven year warranty, it would be the series I would go with if I built a CPU.

The macs are beastly lol I know this because u we had to figure a circuit in just for the tower, in the home theater build I'm on.

@Davedog do you know what DA converters your mastering engineer was using?

Thanks for the replies, this is good. I am using some of my (inheritance) to leverage the money I use for this gear purchase, so if for some reason I never make another penny, I can either sell the gear (at a 40-50% estimated loss) or keep it.

This is all just part of it. I've been a register business owner for a few years, but I am re-launching and "officially" this time. Business plan, accounting method, and stress included lol. Hopefully not enough stress, there's a pluggin for that right??

With this system staying at my home 'editing suite' most of the time, my requirements have never changed. Im ranking the importance of the gear based on how much use it will get. I find myself listening. To my speakers (another area of conversation) at least 6 hours a day, for years. For entertainment and work. DA is very important. Ditto for volume remote control (the grace can run off infrared too!).

My current setup is an iPad and Apple TV. Clients send me beats, I check mixes, whatever, all via the Internet. Very few CDs these days. I'm looking to move into podcasts, and Troma style film/broadcast work at the start, and eventually moving into large scale streaming systems for live events.

Fwiw this is a pipe dream, one that I do have a solid chance at. The people I've been talking to down in NY (blvd pro) do serious rentals and shows (joe Walsh don fielder) so I need to have gear the reflects 'the best, and attention to detail', and Danny does tech work for abbey road. If I had my gear modified it would most likely be by Dan (zeltec) or BLA. I like that BLA is somewhat of a standard by now.

Not that I'm quite on the team, and there's some things I need to keep private, but if the company expands to this area, I want to be ' the guy' heading up the Boston/RI area. Again speculation, and time will reveal to me if it's all coming together. I belive that my current team (down at the studio) is among the best around, and commercially, the people I'm involved with have seen quite a bit. Mainly big noise now, which did Christina Aguileras web site, whom is involved with 'us' and Phil greene, who well did new kids on the block, back in the day lol.

I'm far from done with my networking in the industry, and I am working on making these stronger.

It's just I feel from a business sense, that to have the clients I'm producing, pay $65-85 an hr for a full studio, when we are sitting there mixing and doing overdubs is not the best use of the budget for the artist or me. If the artist did that at my editing suite, or on my rig wherever, I could cut their rate in half, and double the $15/hr I get as an engineering rate at the studio.

I am aware I am insane, please feel free to confirm lol. Thank for thinking this thru w me, there is a lot to talk about. I spent yesterday look,ing up CPU components, so that will be up soon for the discussion.

kmetal Wed, 08/12/2015 - 08:53

Also, I need to rack this stuff with either DIY or otherwise excellent racking. Then there's the power conditioning/voltage regulation. And a 4k or at least 1080 screen/projectors, or lcd. So there is very little room for waste on this one. There's much to consider, beyond just the few basics. This is where something more modular could help me 'cut corners' provided it doesn't hinder workflow.

I would love to plug into one of the Yamaha mixers on a joe Walsh show via 1 gigabit wire, and record it, even for fun, so if something like that ever crops up, it's nice to be only a Couple add on cards away, connectivity wise. Not saying a even have a real chance at that, but that's were/why something like Dante and rednet is making sense. With the top notch conversion AD for overdubs.

Davedog Wed, 08/12/2015 - 15:39

My ME uses a Black Lion built Omni. Which is why I can recommend it. I gotta tell ya. Conversion is only part of the equation and understanding about the ins/outs of why conversion works and how it can be bettered is important in making these decisions. You should call the guys at Black Lion. They will refresh on why and how and make sense even not trying to sell something.

audiokid Wed, 08/12/2015 - 21:45

This post isn't intended to upset anyone, but it's definitely intended to add fuel to this conversation.

The Mothership isn't really going to do it for you and it is imho, more for those doing the round trip. Which as you know, is way off the mark from where I think.
The m905 DA isn't really helping because you still need the AD to capture your mix while tracking and mixing off of DAW1, therefore, just buy a good 2 channel and you are way ahead of the game.
NOTE (kill two birds with one stone) The capture converter (DAW2) is the same ADDA I use for mobile tracking and monitoring the final mix from. It serves three purposes. Mobile, capturing your mixdowns and the master monitor feed from!
Remember, when you are mixing down, you are are mixing from DAW1 uncoupled to DAW2. They are both active at the same time. There is latency but when you are mixing, the latency is moot. When you are overdubbing, or tracking, you switch to DAW1, this why we use a monitor controller. The monitor controller is connected to all points of your tracking, mixing and summing (capturing).

From your list of gear so far, (I know its a bit confusing) I don't think you understand the capturing process quite yet. I'm also convinced you don't either Davedog. Which I get from this post and how you are actually doing in from how you described in that other thread we were all wondering how your ME is capturing your mix, uncoupled?

Just to shake it up here...

People like Andrew Scheps don't even waste time in the hybrid camp anymore. I agree. Its a waste of time and money. Less conversion the better. BUT, two DAW's and the ST changed the game for me. I almost feel I should not even share this. But, you still need brains and ears no matter how "special I think it really is. And that is what we are born with.
Two DAW's is a bit more to get it happening but its worth it for me. A little of it is about the sound you get from uncoupling and the rest is all about the awesome workflow that you get when you use two computers to spread it out.

If the Mothership allows independent clocking between the various modules, then its a contender. If not, its a big expense that you'd be better off looking at something better suited for this approach.

Davedog Wed, 08/12/2015 - 22:28

I completely understand the process. I'm just not going to go there for my needs. I thought about it a lot before my upgrade and I just don't do the kind of work that Chris does and don't seek remixing or repairing sessions. I need more of a tracking room with mixing and editing in a more traditional way.

My ME confused me when he talked of having a capture device and a mastering device. He was talking about his future.....But he hasn't built his capture device yet so his process is basic....he masters the tracks at their original CR and then converts through his converter set to the destination rate for printing and distro. But he is moving towards the uncoupled two computer setup in the future. I'm sure its similar to what Chris uses though there will be some differences due to his needs being different as well as his taste in gear. Whatever he does I'm certain it'll be on a level with the big guns in the industry which is who he works with. And as an aside...less times converting is way better and I think that this should be the focus first and foremost. My files get shared through a server and not bounced to a disk....no conversion....the only time they get converted at this point is when they go to print as a DDP file for the glass master. ...one conversion.....

I don't down convert when my mix is done, I transfer @ the original CR the tracks were recorded at.

Is this clearer? My explanations very rarely match what I know as reality so don't assume anything about what I do or don't understand. There were great explanations on Boz' posts about the uncoupled hybrid and that is what I based my upgrade decisions on. Even Chris has changed course throughout this process.

kmetal Wed, 08/12/2015 - 22:40

I like the different points of veiw and workflows, that's part of the fun for me is kinda defining 'my' workflow, along with the tools. I've literally been at this all day so my brain hurts, but I'll share my work. I have to think about what yall been saying, but I gotta think. I will say if PTHD is in the picture the omni looks like the way to get into it. Inshore the sentiment that we all don't understand each other's workflows quite completely, I'm listening to everyone. :)

Chris the grace has the ability to function as a 2x10 USB 2 audio interface Mac/win. It has an 'asynchronous' clock wich is supposed to offer superior audio to other USB due to its clocking to the crystal inside the unit. And I belive the digital ins can run at different sample rates. Dunno what this means just trying to figure out the best use of watever mentor controller I end up w. Also the grace offers I grace mic pre and the ability to record it via the USB and talkback input. I don't want any small 'token' feature to tip the scale, but I admit it is nice.

My biggest concern with the monitor st and avocet are they are older designs, easily 10 years. So I'm just wondering with this bitchin new CPU(s) and mores law, if state of the art is perhaps better. Really I'm gonna lay ears on all of the contenders, but the workflow and setup may only leave one or two qualifiers! So much for not talking lol.

Also the mixdown daw is going to serve double duty as the office machine, and run any sort of entertainment based things like plex movie streaming ect. This will host or be the master computer? or host? for the the NAS drive remote backup drive/sytem. One day I'll remote mix from across the world lol, not yet. Neither Mac or PC is decided on I have experience with both and I have questionable able luck with micro electronics so neither one has blown me away, so for the educational factor if nothing else I'm exploring the DIY CPU.

Computer questions : mmmmmaaaaarrrrrrccccccccccooooooo!!!!????? Anyone ?Lol

1. Is it better to have ram x4 sticks or x2 sticks, if the RAM is the same amount? I would think for upgrading having 2 sticks that reach 16gb instead of 4 sticks make upgrading to 32gb easier. Does this affect the performance? Your favorite brand?

2. Digital or analog power supply for the CPU?

3. Thoughts on these components in general that I have in the chart? Options/alternatives?

Here's a link to the 2 seemingly most popular motherboards, they are close, and about writhing $100. One has no built in wifi, the other (z170 deluxe) does not look like its raid compatible.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.newegg.c…"]http://www.newegg.c… 50001315 600567584&IsNodeId=1&Manufactory=1315&bop=And&CompareItemList=280|13-132-568^13-132-568-TS,13-132-565^13-132-565-TS&percm=13-132-568:$$$$$$$;13-132-565:$$$$$$$[/]="http://www.newegg.c…"]http://www.newegg.c… 50001315 600567584&IsNodeId=1&Manufactory=1315&bop=And&CompareItemList=280|13-132-568^13-132-568-TS,13-132-565^13-132-565-TS&percm=13-132-568:$$$$$$$;13-132-565:$$$$$$$[/]

Quick bit on audio Dante for $30 I'm including it no matter just for a rainy day, or audiomergency

kmetal Wed, 08/12/2015 - 22:53

Fwiw my current workflow is bounce (offline digital performer) the mix to stereo at 24/44.1 the usual tracking rate, then bring it into either peak or dp to put the limiter and whatever on the "master". Then the SRC happens, or at least the bit depth. Very simple. Not the best, I am looking for depth of field.

Davedog Wed, 08/12/2015 - 22:57

I had to take my office machine in to the shop today and have the geeks do things to it. I wanted to run a CAD program with it and its a windows product so I had to build a virtual machine for the windows pro 7 segment in my old mac. The reason I mention this is because we talked about RAM and here's the geeks take on it.....Buy as much of it as possible but also buy the FASTEST ram your machine will run. In my studio mac I run 16gigs of 1333 ram. Theres faster out now. These guys talked about computer performance in terms of horse power and this is where the high horse power performance comes from. Fast ram and lots and lots of it.

audiokid Wed, 08/12/2015 - 23:53

Davedog, post: 431552, member: 4495 wrote: Is this clearer? My explanations very rarely match what I know as reality so don't assume anything about what I do or don't understand. There were great explanations on Boz' posts about the uncoupled hybrid and that is what I based my upgrade decisions on. Even Chris has changed course throughout this process.

Yes, its clearer. Thanks.

To expand on my process, we both like uncoupling but my process is quite different than Bos. I take it further.

Pretty much from the time I started hybrid mixing, it has always been uncoupled using two DAW's. Two DAW's allows more options. Especially when you add a superior monitoring system. That is essential.

Being said, my process has always included mixing and mastering gear but after I emulated my analog MS console, , I've now removed all my mixing and mastering gear and it actually sounds bigger and more spacious when I simply mix into Sequoia on a second DAW. Its awesome.

Regardless of what DAW anyone chooses, regardless of your business or part you play in pro audio, example: you only record, mix, master, or all the above, even a musician who chooses to write and produce for himself as I do everything just said... , I still advise two DAW's just for the monitoring wow and ability to compare. Comparing work has always been how I learn. So its hard not to want to share that part. Id be using two DAW's no matter what I did in music. Its an incredible way to learn and mix.
The uncoupling is an option, not a priority however, I like the ability to avoid bouncing and that is the main reason for uncoupling.

Sequoia on the second DAW has replaced about $100,000 in mixing and mastering gear. A Good trade. ;)

New things I'm trying include a Folcrom and the Millennia M-2b between the uncoupled pass. I don't think I would ever return to a big rig again. DAW's can do most everything now better ITB.
As far as hybrid gear... Less is more. A few analog components seems to be all that is needed to get that mojo. Two much just smears it all up. I give credit to knowing that because I invested in a great monitoring workflow that allows endless ways to compare what happens on DAW1. Samplitude is also one awesome DAW for mixing and mastering. Everything helps but without the monitoring, none of it would be noticeable.
I think you are on the right track, Kyle. Keep researching.

audiokid Thu, 08/13/2015 - 00:04

kmetal, post: 431553, member: 37533 wrote: Chris the grace has the ability to function as a 2x10 USB 2 audio interface Mac/win. It has an 'asynchronous' clock wich is supposed to offer superior audio to other USB due to its clocking to the crystal inside the unit. And I belive the digital ins can run at different sample rates. Dunno what this means just trying to figure out the best use of watever mentor controller I end up w. Also the grace offers I grace mic pre and the ability to record it via the USB and talkback input. I don't want any small 'token' feature to tip the scale, but I admit it is nice.

I could be missing some things it does. I plan to look at it more, I'm hoping it does more too...

kmetal Thu, 08/13/2015 - 07:46

This cleared up the m905 for me. They explain the thing quite well. It's coming down to the 5.1 or not. If I go PTHD the I feel the dangerous gets me where I need to be, for surround, in a decent price. If I can work around, or decide I don't need critical 5.1, the grace seems to offer a more robust connectivity and feature set, at the base price. Surround on this controller is beyond the scope of my needs/budget for this system.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul14/articles/grace-m905.htm

Here's an excellent chart I found last night regarding, DDR 4 ram, from a cost/be oft perspective. The motherboard can handle up to 64gb of ram, I was thinking 16, to start then expand to 32. Maybe I should plan on 32 to start. That doubles the potential ram budget to about $500.

http://www.legitreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/band-vs-dollar.jpg

kmetal Thu, 08/13/2015 - 07:50

Also, can't wait to call BLA (busy weekend of actual paying gigs lol!) I can imagine it's only matter of some time before they have mods ready for the rednet series, which I see as the only viable other option to the avid omni/HD io path, and the omni is so far the winner in that case...

Peace!

pcrecord Thu, 08/13/2015 - 10:52

kmetal, post: 431553, member: 37533 wrote: Computer questions : mmmmmaaaaarrrrrrccccccccccooooooo!!!!????? Anyone ?Lol

1. Is it better to have ram x4 sticks or x2 sticks, if the RAM is the same amount? I would think for upgrading having 2 sticks that reach 16gb instead of 4 sticks make upgrading to 32gb easier. Does this affect the performance? Your favorite brand?

2. Digital or analog power supply for the CPU?

3. Thoughts on these components in general that I have in the chart? Options/alternatives?

1 : Yes I'd go with 2 sticks of ram and not 4. Most MB are wired to pair ram slots for better performances.
2 : Honestly, never heard of digital electricity.. do you ? Sounds gimick to me.. we'll see in the future if this is gonna stick or become the standard or just go forgotten.
3 : There is a lot of high end parts available; special ram with heatsink and alien looking casing etc.. Those are not adding to performances and computer ressources. I would not go for it unless you see an added value to show off ;)
My way of choosing computer parts is simple. Invest where it counts. Highest CPU speed your budget can buy with matching Ram speed. A motherboard with many SATA express ports because, you're bound to had more hdd or ssd overtime. or simply plug one extra to make copies etc..
The rest can be standard and work well for audio. A liquid CPU cooler is cute but won't make the computer record more tracks...

On thing that could be investigated is some more durable motherboard like the ultra durable serie of Gigabyte. Better components could longer life ??? it lets you think..

audiokid Thu, 08/13/2015 - 13:23

kmetal, post: 431559, member: 37533 wrote: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul14/articles/grace-m905.htm

Excellent article. Dangerous has endless testimonials like this as well.
Once you experience great monitoring, you really step up your game.

The monitor controller is, in my view at least, the most quality-critical element of any studio system. My reasoning for such a bold statement is that this device is a permanent fixture in the monitoring chain — the window through which we 'look' at the sound we produce — and it is therefore critical to the evaluation of audio quality and, consequently, every recording and mixing decision that we make. A monitor controller cannot improve the source sound quality but it certainly can degrade the monitoring signal, and for that reason I would argue that the monitor controller is actually more important even than the monitor speakers themselves!

After using excellent controllers, and seeing how they connect to your workflow, and how this is so much better than using a console to mix/ monitor off of, I would invest in a good monitor controller and monitors over all other purchases before buying any DAW platform, gear and software.
Ironically, most of us (me included) don't even think about this until we've been mixing for years and invested a shit load into gear, yet it is the window we look through all the time. It is the point where we base all decisions from gear purchases to all our tracking, mixing and mastering decisions.

Why would we want to hear what we are actually doing lol.

From my personal experience, what I would consider Pro Advice would start with someone sitting behind a pro monitoring system over racks of gear, fast talk and some pro tools rig any day of the week. But that's me now older and seasoned, plus I've been fortunate to have had a lot of gear sent to me , where I didn't have to like it. There is something good about not having to like something you dumped a wad of loot into.
Anyway, from a business perspective, Kyle... you also have to think about your potential client base so maybe a more modest controller and some extra "other" things might serve you well until you get better anchored.
Being said, from my perspective, Those who invest in their listening tools are the ones I trust most. So, if you are thinking about building a reputation, I would be looking deep into these controllers like you are (y) over rushing into a DAW system that is either overkill or what every kid with a few grand can buy. "common" does not win business unless you include a studio to go a long with it.

Great article. Thanks for finding it and posting it here.

kmetal Fri, 08/14/2015 - 02:09

That's deep Chris. Quickly as I'm burnt out from a hip hop session. Monitors for me are on the wait list. I'm getting some bigs when the time comes. But I gotta get my personal room setup, that's step 2. My speakers are thx certified and plenty fine for editing, and small mix tweaks. I'd love a set of bare foots...step3?

I mixed tonight in a studio room that George ausburger approved back on the day, it's a remarkable room, and the only room that I've ever been in where you really can just mix how you like and it moves around. The speakers are a bit dated. Sitting in that room before the gear, just empty with the mains, and an iPod straight to the hafler. Life size clear music with pinpoint imaging. it changed my perspective for good.

The most juxtaposed part of the whole thing was going out of motu converters, and a Mackie big slob. Worse with an ensemble right there. I've done the a to bs the controller makes the system almost berringerish. The motu da isn't quite great either. I refuse to have a setup that's big but not connected, or limited by outdated components.

That studio is too cool for these things to ruin the mood, but, it's a bit of a damper for me, and a reminder of how important and common listening and talking back is. It's inspiring to be in a magic room, so much so that I'm willing to work to improve it greater.

Anyways it's gonna be a while before my room, and I've designed a few for myself in the noggin. I want my room to look and feel like normal room, windows sunlight, and sling great. And it's entirely possible.

Me gots lots o thinkin to do. At least I know I'll need a computer.

kmetal Sat, 08/15/2015 - 17:23

Got some good gigs in the past couple days, tonight's got cancelled. Doing some poking around the Internet and saw this
http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/products/satori-high-end-monitoring-controller

I don't know if it's what I'll need, but it looks like a nice peice and the price is more real world. The 4 individual headphone outs/amps is killer, and the summing capability is interesting.

kmetal Sat, 08/15/2015 - 22:47

I spent an hour so looking up mastering studios and I didn't see any of the places that came up, with any of the monitor controls we've been talking about. Not surprisingly, a lot of the gear of that nature is custom. I was hoping a couple pics of Ted Jensens mastering desk might help sway my opinions toward something (again I have to listen to the contenders) but no, it's only confused me more lol

The grace and satori are my two favorites based purely on features, but two very very different animals. The dangerous lands somewhere in the middle I guess? But I will say I don't like those analog knobs on the front of that thing, which I feel would somehow get touched by some unknowing person. If they were stepped knobs (nkt sure what they are) then that would be less of a buzzkill.

If the satori had some DA other than the phone amps it might just be the winner (before auditioning)

I looked at the prism stuff and I like it. They're adda are more than I can justify spending at this time.

I'm going to love samplitude since I do a ton of clip based gain adjustment anyway, I'm more than happy to have more power in that area which Sam offers in spades. and as a capture daw, with a big brother like sequoia, Sam is gonn crush.

Havering not worked with it yet, my concern is its workflow for tracking, and also how well it plays with control surfaces Ect. With no computer I'm just gonna have to wait and see.

Anyone used mytec converters ? They have 2x8 device that's interesting. All this stuff costs about the same as each other on their respective tiers. It's gonna come down to sonics and most useful features to build my sonic foundation on.

I've confirmed what I've always believed that gear does make a difference at a certain level. It can make an otherwise un attainable difference. I was at the studio and I plugged in the sm7-calrec-Api EQ-summit tla 100- apogee Rosetta. Instant tone in a full way. I tried a few other pre amps, DBx presonus and Api. The difference was not subtle in the mids especially. i was instantly a hero.

Between big speakers and truly professional (not even boutique) gear my recordings improved instantly. Which leads me to the conclusion that high end is a good place to shop, and that the output side is a significantly important weak area in my toolset.

My newer recordings still have that 'not quite' commercial sonics, and I think th DA and better SRC method will help me evolve my skills to 'almost' commercial lmao

audiokid Sun, 08/16/2015 - 08:36

kmetal, post: 431617, member: 37533 wrote: I spent an hour so looking up mastering studios and I didn't see any of the places that came up, with any of the monitor controls we've been talking about.

Howie seems like a really clever guy. I've actually been makin comments on this video and a few related like it for a few years here.
A lot of gear I've used for years is standard high end mastering gear these guys use as well so I have an idea how it sounds and works.

Here is my point.

The ST is absolutely world class and used by very serious ME and mixing engineers. Dangerous Music (Chris Muth) has been leading how to integrate DAW's , summing , mastering and monitoring since the beginning. Its cutting edge workflow, not following. The ST and similar products are benchmarks. The ST uses routers and connects a DAW ideal. The Grace is definitely a nice looking controller but the ST is everything you need. New products will come and go, but the basics are what you find in the ST.

Being said. This video is part of a marketing campaign that I found interesting and disturbing.

Howie and other 10M beneficiaries (I got one too) rave/ about it.
imho, anyone claiming that product is worth the investment /(rack space) are suffering from serious clocking problems. This isn't just my opinion.
Im chuckling because a group of engineers who endorsed this appear unaware of endorsing a product that is (do your research) for helping bad or weak clocking usually effected from the bloated rats nest of digital hardware most of us don't need anymore. It's seriously dated for the dated.
These clocks are useless for a proper workflow and really hard to sit back and not say anything when I watch or read the huge claims, followed by some new guy thinking / trusting these master clocks will add sonic value to their modest system.

IMHO, These guys are revealing how bad their workflow is. Yikes!
A 10m was given to me but I couldn't like it in good conscience. It made me question a lot of people and methods after I saw this. Which added to my confidence.
The point is, don't trust all the old school for all the advice today. At least I don't. Some of those guys are still using a rats nest and coming at pro audio from the dead past. Gear is impressive but Once ITB, stay ITB.
One DAW and a great monitoring setup, speakers and excellent acoustics gets it done. The rest we see in studios can all be put out in the hallway.

DonnyThompson Sun, 08/16/2015 - 09:40

audiokid, post: 431626, member: 1 wrote: IMHO, These guys are revealing how bad their workflow is.

If this is indeed effecting their sound in a negative way, then certainly, it needs to be pointed out and discussed. Intelligent debate is good for scenarios like this, as it allows fact to be separated from myth; and there's plenty of both in all levels of audio gear.

I think it becomes even more important though, when we start talking about the audio gear that isn't at all that cheap; some of which, as we know, can be in the multi-thousands of dollars range.

It's good to keep manufacturers on their toes, and to not let them get away with pushing a "new and improved whatever" device, and then to put a high price tag on it just because they happen to have a world-class name on the faceplate.

As far as gear and workflows go, if an M.E.'s final product sounds great, I don't really care if they are using SOTA gear, or a hamster wheel-driven power supply on their conversion system... LOL... For me, the proof is in the sound of the final product.

If they are able to maintain, enhance or add sonic excellence, then whatever gear they happen to use in their workflow shouldn't matter... it doesn't matter to me, anyway.

IMHO of course.

-d.

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