Kurt Foster, post: 397502 wrote: The Holy Grail ?
i would never steer anyone towards an MCI because of the maintenance issues. you need some real cash flow through a facility to make a "real" analog console a sustainable proposition. of course if you have 50+ grand and the business to support it, an API 1608 would be nice! i agree the Neos is da kine ... 120 volt rails in the Neos and a neutral sound.... what's not to like there? and again i also like the SSL XRack (same concept).

if Dave likes the Toft there must be something to it. the ATB's are cool in that they have through hole construction and chip sockets ... they are built it seems with upgrades and mods in mind. i guess 17 volts + / - is fine ... i think that's in the same ball park as an API??? once i have the chance to play with one i will get a better feel for it i guess.

will a Studio Live sound as warm or sweet as an old MCI or even the ATB? maybe not but the cost of admission for a top of the line PreSonus is half that of a the next to smallest Toft 8 channel and you get a lot more bang for buck ( graphic and parametric eq's, compressors, mastering processors, reverbs, delays, converters etc. etc. ) ... plus you don't need to do a bunch of expensive mods to get them quiet. and remember once you have modded the ATB's the warrenty is void.

when you factor in the free DAW software that comes with the Studio Live it's a value that's hard to beat. You have on-board processing as well as itb processing and the ability to use hardware too. it's a very powerful package. someone talented with a Studio One can make some great recordings we have already heard them. how good does it need to be? after all it's probably going to end up as an MP4 on EwwToobe. i would lean towards the PreSonus. I already have good mic pres and i just cannot overlook the features of the Studio Live vs. any other small format analog console for the cost.

Dont get me wrong here, had the Studio Live had motorized faders, I would have one sitting on my desk right now. When I reduced my footprint in order to straighten out some ergonomics problems here, the Presonus was high on my check out list and I did so. In Kurt's and my situations with a decent variety of well-heeled outboard, its a perfect solution as a centerpiece to a small studio. The workflow is excellent, the variety of ITB devices within it is a tremendous value in sound and flexibility, and the mic pres will never hurt anything you ask it to do. And the Studio One is a very good program with what seems like a very good support system that doesnt look to be discontinued anytime soon. I believe they've just released V2.5 with lots of new stuff and they also look to be retroactive in the ability to upgrade from V1. Nice stuff and in the hands (and ears) of someone with chops this thing will make great sounds.

My needs were simpler in the end choice....I needed eight channels of pres for my second room for drums and whatever....I waffled back and forth between several 8 channel dedicated racks: Phoenix, Millennia, a 500 series something or other, another ISA and an API!...in short.. several combinations but in the end, the Toft won out after trial. The first drum session and using the EQ and the routing made way too much sense and the sound was a big step up from the Ghost as well as the footprint issues.

After I finish this Stingers record, the studio gets a tear down again and I will be installing ADC TT bantam patchbays, rerouting things, and just streamling the overall flow and fixing some of the quirks this dump has developed over the last couple of years.......Ya know how the gremlins do their thing.....The better patchbays will solve a LOT of problems I'm having now. The old Switchcrafts are still okay but the rest of the stuff is becoming junk at a rapid rate. Seeing my workflow at its highest point with the making of the new record shows me where I can improve things. A total half-normal setup will get rid of a lot of patch cables and a better understanding of the Toft's routing theories will bring me and this place to a higher standard of recording.

if past history dictates anything it's for sure there will always be different ways to fix the same problems. and if for just a moment, we all take ourselves out of the equitation and look at it from a distance, it really is cool that there are so many ways to do things these days and just as many products to accommodate so many variations on the theme.

audiokid chose the [="http://spl.info/produkte/summierer-mischer/mixdream/kurzbeschreibung.html"]Mix Dream[/]="http://spl.info/pro…"]Mix Dream[/]. he wants a neutral summing solution with wide volt swing for a big sound high end detail and bass punch. he chooses to add color (or not) with outboard eq and different flavor mic pres / amplifiers in the path on the way to the summer. if i could afford it i would probably go the same way.

there's also neutral uncolored high volt summing mixers like the SPL Neos or the X Desk to choose from.

for those on a budget, there's merit in the FOLCROM / [[url=http://="http://www.unitaudi…"]The Unit[/]="http://www.unitaudi…"]The Unit[/] approach in that one can opt for a "colored" make up stage or go for a more neutral sound by which pre amps are used for gain make up. But then you are dealing with the issue bishopdante mentioned which is you are attenuating tracks pre converter in digital instead of post converter in analog with a fader. but still it's workable. i see no reason that someone couldn't take an output at full volume from the DAW and run it into a mixer input then take a di out from the mixer into a passive summing network and then add a flavor of the month pre amps at the end. sort of the long way around but maybe a way to do it on the "cheep".

then there's summing mixers which intentionally impart a sonic signature like the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.thermion…"]Fat Bustard[/]="http://www.thermion…"]Fat Bustard[/] or a Neve 8816 or the plethora of such devices.

Mx. Remy loves her Consoles. Neve and Spheres, (Behringers? facepalm ) ... iron and inductors.. bishopdante goes for the console sound also. Dave who apparently subscribes to the same school, choose to keep it affordable while trying to get a big console sound and he seems to be very pleased.

vive la différence

a myriad of approaches and solutions. all have their up and down sides. the thing i find interesting is each of us seems very passionate about the choices we made to find the answer and feels a need to enforce their opinions. that's ok though. i think in a way we are all right and all wrong at the same time. compromises will be made. what would be too cool would be to have all or at least a few of these solutions at ones fingertips all in one studio. i would choose a Neos and a Neve with a passive summer thrown in for good measuere. (here we go again).

the search for Holy Grail of big console audio with a computer based recording system drives the industry to provide a solution. some like Fords and some like Ferrari's and many of us drive Fords but lust for the Ferrari.

Davedog wrote: After I finish this Stingers record, the studio gets a tear down again and I will be installing ADC TT bantam patchbays, rerouting things,

i don't envy you that task .... solder lugs or push blocks? either way that's a lot of fabricating.

i would love a bantam pb ... i would probably get one of the pb's with DB25 connectors. plug & play.

if past history dictates anything it's for sure there will always be different ways to fix the same problems. and if for just a moment, we all take ourselves out of the equitation and look at it from a distance, it really is cool that there are so many ways to do things these days and just as many products to accommodate so many variations on the theme.

No argument there from me, although I prefer the term "scenario" over the word "problem". ;)

It all comes down to which work-flow process you prefer.

There's nothing wrong with sitting at a console and doing your thing. There is certainly something to be said for working in a hands-on scenario.
I did it myself for over twenty five years. LOL

As I mentioned before, I understand the attraction to tactile mixing. There is something highly impersonal about using a mouse to move faders and to scroll settings and parameters of gain, EQ, GR, etc.

However, it's my only real option these days, because of budget ( and space ) constraints, and it allows me to do what I do without knocking out a wall in my house - lol - but there are certainly times I miss pulling my chair up to a physical console and cooking tracks.

I had several consoles over the years, from the entry level desks that we pretty much all started with, to nice mid range consoles in the 30 - 50k range.
One of my favorites was a custom-modded Neotek Elan'. Eventually, I picked up a pair of Yamaha 02R's in the mid nineties when I cracked into the digital multi track world.

On a side note, and in my personal opinion (flame suit engaged ) I'd stay away from an MCI - unless you want to spend every waking hour (and then some) performing maintenance on the thing; but if someone is good with those skills and enjoys modding work-arounds, and really likes the sound of that desk, then so be it.

If I were going to move into the OB direction, I think I'd opt for something that allowed me the freedom to pick and choose between different pres, EQ's and GR modules...and to add them along the way as money allowed; the thought of having these different units appeals to me - perhaps different channel strips from different models - API, Neve, Trident, etc., along with processing from UA, dbx, or whatever other units that were available, that would allow me different coloration to use in either single-ended routing - or to combine any of the above, based on what I was after.

If I picked and chose correctly, it might also allow me to serve two Gods - multi track production and mastering.

It would also allow me to keep that west wall in my house intact. ;)

In my humble opinion, of course.

-D.

Really, currently, I'm really considering closing down the truck? 21+ years is a good run. Certainly a run for the money. Whether I'm running away from the money or the money is running towards me? Always having had fly pack systems, for where the truck won't go, as always been part of my arsenal. So it really is just a hybrid based rack box that basically approximates being behind a console. Now I just have to get a couple of smaller boxes. That super deep, padded, military grade, 5 foot tall ANVIL case, I can't even get in the door of my RV much less up those stairs. I mean I'll just have to be happy with API 3124 m's, some Op Amp Labs, Neve 3115's and HD 24 XR's. Or maybe go just a little bit smaller and get a Joe Co. Black Box? I mean you really still need to have enough, to track an entire band, live, all at once, together, before any overdubs or corrections are made. So I'm always going to have at least 24 choice preamps even if they're not in 500 series racks. I can rack up anything. And I still want to have some good analog EQ. And while I don't have my 8 API 550's anymore, the 1073 type equalization in the 3115's are quite nice albeit somewhat limited. Too much rack space is taken up by my Orban Pera-Graphic 4 channels. So I still see a 500 rack in my future? And of course I'll build my own superduper summing box. And I already see it switchable/patch able, API or, Neve or, tube summing and choice of output stages, API or Neve or tube. Maybe a Dean Jensen/John Hardy 990 also? And maybe the ability to output all, simultaneously? I don't necessarily want to do anything... Dangerously... LOL. Maybe even changing some output stages to eliminate electrolytic capacitors and instead stick in some non-polarized, polypropylene capacitors? And/or an additional bit of output switching for electrolytic or non-polarized capacitor coupling to the output Transformers or no output Transformers? And then, I'll need to silkscreen up the front panel. Then everybody will want one LOL. And then I still won't be making any recordings but... equipment instead? It certainly won't be my first time. And the RV is a lot more comfortable and fully self-contained along with a 6.5 kW, two cylinder Onan generator. And I'll have to also replace my now defunct TA-SCAM DM-24. Not sure what I'll shoot for next? I certainly like those touch sensitive, motorized faders. Which almost rules out the PreSonus Live 24? Still considering an Avid something? I still like having a console like interface. SSL would make sense but not in the budget. At least not in the foreseeable future?

A new plan is taking shape.

So many choices I have to start making...
Mx. Remy Ann David

Remy
i have an Anvil 98 space flight rack / shock mount and wired for ac 220/110 i would sell cheep! it belonged to MC hammer. he used it for his stage set up to house his power amps. let me know if you are interested. on wheels covers complete.

Kurt Foster, post: 397537 wrote: i don't envy you that task .... solder lugs or push blocks? either way that's a lot of fabricating.

i would love a bantam pb ... i would probably get one of the pb's with DB25 connectors. plug & play.

Punch blocks. And necessary. The Furmans have become too hinkey and the old Switchcrafts with the wireloom and soldering are just that.....'old'. Too many workarounds for this project so the ADC's are sitting in the garage ready to go. I would have done the DB25 but nothing I have has that setup.