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Overhead Phase

I was listening to a current drum track and playing with phase switches while in mono. Listening to the low end it sounds the fullest with one over head switched out. The right from the drummers perspective. However, listening to the hi end I can hear a slight filtering type thing with this setup. From now on I will listen for this while tracking, but what adjustment should I make? How far and which direction should I move an overhead when trying to get them to work right with the kit?
Up a foot or an inch, away from the other overhead, front to back?
I realize any of these could be right but is the problem the sound getting to the mics at different times or the two mic patterns not covering the area correctly?
Are overheads normally the same height off the ground or does it always vary? I need to get a grip on this phase thing!

Comments

Guest Thu, 11/01/2001 - 10:37

See if you like the sound of a coincident pair - two mics at 90 degrees with the heads essentially touching. It's not the same stereo sound as a widely spaced pair, but you may find the sound works really well for your particular application, especially in a small/low ceiling room. And, of course, the main benefit is all the direct and reflected sounds arrive simultaneously, so phase is eliminated as an issue.

RecorderMan Fri, 11/02/2001 - 08:26

here's my trick. It's fast and it works perfect every time.

1. Place the "Left" overhead mic directly over the center of the snare at the hieght of two drum sticks-held end-to-end(from the center of the snare, straight up, to the capsule of the mic).
2. Next; take the drum sticks (still held end-to-end) from the center of the snare over to above your ( i.e." the drummers") right shoulder and place your "right" overhead mic here.
3. Fine tune the placement by using a mic cable and measurinb the distance from the center of the Kick to each of these mics is also equidistant from the kick and snare.
4. listen with headphones and have the drummer lightly hit his kick drum, and adjust the "right" mics angle until the kick is in the middle of your "image".

What this has done is:
1. Place the snare & the kick in the center when you pan these mics hard left and right.
2. Place the overheads in a position which is in-phase with the kick,snare and overheads.
3. balanced the over heads so that the Rack and floor Toms (as well as all cymbals) are correctly ballanced.

this is actually a great "picture" of the kit at this point. maybe a hair of Top end (depending on what mics your using) and a little this, and a Kick mic. BUT whatever you add (snare mics, toms, etc) you'll mow be inphase. This also makes your snare & toms louder inrelation to the cymbals & is more of a true OH mic set-up (Not just "cymbal" mic's )

It may look weird but try it...it trulelly ROCKS

Attached files

Rader Ranch Fri, 11/02/2001 - 09:18

only 2 drumsticks? as i picture it (hafta go home to check for sure) this would place the mics barely above drummers head height in most cases...you'd think the mics would get creamed all the time by the wind-up when going for crash cym's or highly positioned high hats...you sure it's not a little higher? do you have a pic you can post?

e-cue Sat, 11/03/2001 - 04:20

I heard about a trick Neil Peart tried out where he taped a PZM mic to his chest. I've tried this out a couple times and it actually sounds pretty cool, except, drummers bump into it too much, etc... If you got time to burn (yeah right) and have a drummer that's adventurous, give it a shot.

PlugHead Sun, 11/04/2001 - 14:52

FWIW,

I've been using a similar method to RecorderMan's: This is really dependent on the drummer, and their technique. Wait till they set the kit, note how they set their cymbals (most drummers hang them low(er), which is optimum), then get out your TAPE MEASURE (surely you have one or two kickin around from the last reno's in the studio!) and measure from the snare centre (some actually measure from the strike position) to each overhead's capsule - you can gauge distances & phase easier with markings. Next is deciding what kind of stereo image you want - wide, tight, etc., but not going too wide is the most failsafe mono compatibility - adjust to taste. My distance from snare to OH capsule(s) is usually between 30" and 42" depending on cymbals, drummer, song, obstacles, etc. If the overheads are too high up, phase really becomes an issue , so try to keep'em as low as possible without crowding the talent. Monitor the drummer in the ControlRoom, flip between Stereo and Mono, and find where the image sits best. Once you have completed micing (kick/snare/toms/room), check phase again. I rarely have problems, but also, I seldomly close-mic toms either - unless the songs are tom based, or extremely aggressive music, I tend to get 90% of my drum sound thru the overheads (if not, the other 10% and up is the room mic: I haven't used the recorded snare track in a few recent projects, save for throwing thru a SansAmp etc!).

That's what seems to work for me - good luck on your quest, YMMV

Jay
PlugHead Productions

RecorderMan Sun, 11/11/2001 - 11:13

Radar Ranch:
If you use a boom Stand behind the drummer, with the boom over their head, you can get the mic into position, and they don't hit it ( at least not with me yet). This will place the snare mic a few inches in front of and above their forhead.

Zoot:
The last time i did this (last week) I angled both of the mics towards the snare; then moving the right sholuder mic (with headphones on) intill I got the kick in the center of my "image". I've had equal success by aiming them at the Rack and Floor toms. For Me it's a question of getting the kick and snare right. after that everything else seems to fall into place. With all the variations in cymbals and their placement not to mention their abillity at being heard, I really dont worry about them. This technique takes a well ballaced stereo "image" that puts the snare and kick in the center, places the Rack and Floor in balance, keeps the phase right, AND puts the cymbals in the way I like for free. Besides if the song calls for a lot of ride, I'll uasually have a SM7 spotting that as well...just to bring it into the forground if necessary. If I'm in a really good room, I use Lots of mics. I'll use more mics to add depth and tone,instead of more eq, i.e. adding near ambient kick mics, near ambiant mic near the floor tom almost to the floor(with a symetrical mic on the hi hat side). I'll do this by listening for spots around the kit/room where certains drums (i.e. kick, snare,toms,etc) speak well, and/or add a "note" I don't have enough of yet.

hope this helps

Attached files

RecorderMan Fri, 11/16/2001 - 09:40

Originally posted by recordista:
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned M-S technique. Pretty much guaranteed to eliminate phase issues and if you record the unmatrixed feeds it gives you a variable width control during mixdown.

Probably because when you get right down to it M/S doesn't sound all that great. You can't have you're cake and eat it to. M/S tries to put off making up your mind as to "Mono or Stereo?". Commit when you record and save time when you mix.
I'm also against printing every single mic to a track in multi mic'd set-ups; as in 2 or 3 mics on Kick,snare, toms, etc. If you spend the extra time (a few more minutes at most) when your tracking, you'll get balances at that time that will be hard to reproduce later, at the same time capturing that balance and leaving more tracks for OD's.
My two cents.

anonymous Mon, 11/19/2001 - 03:59

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
The last time i did this (last week) I angled both of the mics towards the snare; then moving the right shoulder mic (with headphones on) until I got the kick in the center of my "image".
hope this helps

Recorderman: Do you use your overheads in OMNI or in CARDIOID? :confused:

ThanX in advance...

RecorderMan Mon, 11/19/2001 - 08:15

Originally posted by gie:

Recorderman: Do you use your overheads in OMNI or in CARDIOID? :confused:

ThanX in advance...

I usually use cardiod...but there is no firm rule here. If your using ribbons. your already in figure-8 (unless there 77's in "uni"). The thing to consider is the sound your after/or dealing with. If your in a great sounding room and baybe you don't have room mics, try Fifure-8 or omni; this will add more room sound to your oh's. Conversely- and probably usually- you'll get more than enough "room" in cardioid. Listen and be the judge.

RecorderMan Mon, 11/19/2001 - 08:29

Originally posted by Tekker:
This is the best way I've heard to get two mics (or overheads) in phase: when you set up your mics flip the phase on one of them, then move them around to get the 'quietest' sound possible (barely audible). Then flip the phase back and they will now be almost perfectly in phase.

-tkr

With due respect, while this may give you a lack of coloration (i.e. "in phase") between the overhead mics, it can/will be very arbitrary and may/probably have no relationship to the other mics (i.e.,snare,kick,toms,etc). Phase relationships in a multi-mic'd drum kit are synergistic. the resulting sum is truelly greater than the parts. My above mentioned procedure...while far from the only way, does work effectively, and you'll look cool doing it
'cause all you'll use is the drummer's sticks and yuo'll be there fast. Listen,Listen,Listen. and quickly check all phase switches on all interelated mics (i.e. mics that are part os the same sound-"all the drum mic").
Once you have trained your self to "hear" phase ( you can begin this self training by listening to the resultant stereo bus mix with headphones on when you place the mics...a great learning tool) you can quickly move around a room/instrument and "hear" spots where mics can go to record the perspective you need for the given part...within the contaext of the song and parts already recorded.

That said..."flip[ing] the phase on one of them, then move them around to get the 'quietest' sound possible (barely audible). Then flip the phase back and they will now be almost perfectly in phase." is actually the beginning of what I've just stated.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
happy recording

Tekker Tue, 11/20/2001 - 13:00

Originally posted by RecorderMan:


With due respect, while this may give you a lack of coloration (i.e. "in phase") between the overhead mics, it can/will be very arbitray and may/probably have no relationship to the other mics (i.e.,snare,kick,toms,etc).

True, but then again you're never really going to get everything in phase with each other if you have overheads, snare, kick drum, and tom mics. But getting the overheads in phase is a good place to start and that technique seems like it would work extremely good.

-tkr

Attached files

RecorderMan Tue, 11/20/2001 - 13:25

Originally posted by tubedude:
Hey recorderman... I'm not sure I'm following you exactly. From what I'm gathering its weird and out of whack, so I'm probably gathering wrong.

1. sit on the drummer's throne/stool.
2.Hold both drum sticks end-to-end so that you have a measuring device ( aprox. 16"...give or take).
3. place the tip of one end of your new double- length-drums-stick-measuring-device in the center of the snare with the "drum sticks" held vertically.
4. The other end will now(depending on how tall you are) be a little above and in front of your forehead.
5. Place a mic here. I've been aiming it down at the snare as of late...
6. With the tip of the "drum sticks" still in the center of the snare, angle the "stick back and down, so that's it's to the right of your right shoulder ( about a 45 degreee angle)
7. Use amic cable. Measure the distance of the over the snare mic to the center of the kick drum. Check that the "right shoulder" mic is also the same distance.
8. Doulble check the snare distance again.

9. As far as where to face them...experiment. I like the extra snare reinforcement, so as of late I've been facing them both at the snare. facing them at the rack and floor toms also produces good results.
10. one last thing to check. with headphones on, both "OH" mics in your cue mix (only them) .fine tune the placement (i.e. adjust their orientation...usualliy just moving the shoulder one) untill the kick is in the center of your "image"
11. When your done you'll notice that at first glance, this looks very weird and unsymmetrical. Yet it is very symmetrical in it's result. A. Rack toms are higher off the floor than floor toms, so this arrangement actually follows the contour of the toms as they really are. Standard OH micing doesn't take this into account, and as such are usually no more than "cymbal mics". Most of them time you see mixers pulling the OH's down to -10 or more in the mix because of the over abundance of cymbals and badly phased snare/kick/toms in the "OH's". I tend to focus my OH on being a cornerstone of my whole kit sound, and as such, and have spent great pains into making the snare/kick/tom elements speak as well as possible. I guess you could say I'm a "drum bigot". It's just that if you "ignore" the cymbals you actually are going to hear them anyway...like the hat, there just so damn loud.

Now, I'm actually almost overstaing this point (almost to the point of being out of context) ,but I'm doing it, so as to explain my method.

Hope this has been helpful

Attached files

anonymous Fri, 11/23/2001 - 16:53

I was just reading an interview with Jay Grayson (sp?) in sound on sound magazine.. His take on drum is is that all downward pointing mics are out of phase anyway because when a stick hits a skin it creates downward air compression which results in rarefraction on the mic side (ie out of phase with the normal diaphragm motion). So all mics in a kit besides the Kick and snare bottom would be out of phase acoustically in relation to the mic postitions...

Nice big spanner there ;)

I'm all for minimal techniques so I'll be trying that out soon RM

Sean

anonymous Fri, 11/30/2001 - 21:53

RecorderMan

I just wanted to thank you for posting this overhead configuration. Very, pleased with the results. Very balanced image with no real phase problems at all. Kick and snare are dead center. I modified the measurement length from 2 sticks to 21/2. 58" or so.
Used a pair of NTK's. Quite happy. :D

Thanks again

Dan-O

RecorderMan Tue, 12/04/2001 - 11:59

Originally posted by Tekker:

True, but then again you're never really going to get everything in phase with each other if you have overheads, snare, kick drum, and tom mics. But getting the overheads in phase is a good place to start and that technique seems like it would work extremely good.

-tkr

really give the technique that I have tried to described; then you'll stop worring about phase...and be diggin paht drum kits....

RecorderMan Tue, 12/04/2001 - 12:12

Thanks Dan-O,

that helps to make my day. I been doing this for a while...spending w-a-y too long assisting others...but have witnessed,catalogued and thereby distilled a rather cohesive if sometimes personal paradigm og this art.
I have also been reticent to post too much for all the flame wars that seem to start...my life is too short. But i am passionate about this stuff, and in all humbleness am truelly as fine a recorderman as anyone( a little self pat...not to offend)

...anyway...for newbies:

I would reccomend that you learn to really train your ears by:
1. aleays listen to the source, in the intended location(i.e. room) before you place mic.
2. move your head around spot too find good mic locations. Some times stand on a chair. The best spot in the room for an ambiaent mic might be above your head...or on the floor.
3. Use headphones...you can really hear what the mic is hearing ( it takes some practice as you're in the room also and the slight bleed of the enviorment affects what your truelly hearing).
4. I usually pan direct and ambient mics and L&R stereo mics; in my cans, hard left and right. When I have the image I desire it makes a nice ballanced left and right image...this means the phase is right.

I don't do this as much myself anymore because my self-training has accumulated enough experiance to just throw 'em up in the right spot (..and eversince JJP gave me a story of his regarding Glynn Johns and himself...another time)

....keep recording real acoustic sounds

MadMoose Sun, 12/09/2001 - 22:24

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
really give the technique that I have tried to described; then you'll stop worring about phase...and be diggin paht drum kits....

I've used it on two different tracking sessions since you posted it. Works like a charm. I had to modify it slightly the other day though. I ended up angling both mics out about 30 degrees from the snare so I could get more hi-hat on the one mic. On the other side of the kit there was a "remix" cymbal that was like a 16" crash with tamborine style jangles on it and wasn't all that loud. We were tracking with all the amps in the room and it was getting lost.

RecorderMan Mon, 12/10/2001 - 08:17

Originally posted by Hack:
RecorderMan,
Do you use a hat mic with this setup?

Actually...I use tons of mics when I can. I like very 3D drums, so I use Top & bottom mics, multiple room and ambient mics, etc. But, I always commit at tracking and combine said mics so that I'll have: K,Snr,Hat,Toms,OH,stereo Room and Mono Room (whatever). I don't want to have to make those descisions again atn the mix and I want itn to sound great fast when I'm OD'in. I use multiple mics to gain any note I'm not already getting. I work backwards...get a great Room, then OH's then fit in the other pieces into this frame...works great.

This OH technique also works stand alone ( as I've said...the OH are probably the two(or one) most important mics on the kit) Also the height obviously can be varied...I've just been diggin' recently the "cool" aspect of getting a good and fast OH sound using the drummers sticks...call me wierd

P.S. Glad it's working out...any more questions?

Hack Mon, 12/10/2001 - 22:00

ok, more questions...

What is a good starting point for room mics? How far away, and how far apart? Large or small diaphram?

And what about baffeling? I am thinking of using a room that is 100'W X 75'L X 20'H. I have heard that its good to surround the kit with soft things but what about the room mics? Should there be anything between the kit and the room mics?

Should I put the kit in the middle of the room or on a wall? Riser or no riser?

The questions never end.

RecorderMan Tue, 12/11/2001 - 08:57

Originally posted by Hack:
ok, more questions...

What is a good starting point for room mics? How far away, and how far apart? Large or small diaphram?

And what about baffeling? I am thinking of using a room that is 100'W X 75'L X 20'H. I have heard that its good to surround the kit with soft things but what about the room mics? Should there be anything between the kit and the room mics?

Should I put the kit in the middle of the room or on a wall? Riser or no riser?

The questions never end.
All Good Question's....
Let's look at them, one by one.
1."Should I put the kit in the middle of the room or on a wall? "

Answer: First, what kind of Song and Band is it? Is it John Bonham or Ringo Starr we're after. If it's "Bonham", we want alot of room with more distant Mic's, if it's "Ringo" we want a drier more intimant sound.
Now that we know what sound were after, we need to find the right place in the room. That room you mentioned is on the big side, So take your snare and kick around the room untill you find a pleasing sounding location for them. You'll alos have to ballance that with the pur logistics os sightlines, etc, so that communication isn't a problem.
2 "Riser or no riser?"
I like riser's. Their purpose is to basically act as a resonator and reinforce the fundemental of the kick and toms. Use one ESPECIALLY if the floor is CEMENT.
Cement floor=Suckingall tone from drums.
3."What is a good starting point for room mics? How far away, and how far apart? Large or small diaphram? "

Use your ears. Walk around the room while the drummer is bangin' away and find spots for room mic's. they can be large or small diaphram...depends on what you got. they can both work. The trick is to adjust accordingly to your needs. I do preffer large diaphrams myself though. You want to maximize the Drums and minimize the cymbals in your room sound. Find spots that give you a particularly focused aspect of the kick, or snare or toms,etc.
Baffle the kit, if, when listening to just the close mics (OH,K,Snr,toms,hat,ect), you hear too much room/slap/ambience,ect. If you don't...don't baffle.
[Also, another trick, for a big snare sound, baffle the kit on either side (your baffles need one hardside and one soft side) for this) of the kit; hard side of baffles facing out. place mics pointing at the hard side of the baffle. this makes a snare abient sound by minimizing the direct AND minimizing the pre-delay.]

more tips :( mix and match)

Stick a kick ambient mic about 3' in front of the kick. This mic is actually a good mono ambient mic.
Need more low end on the Toms amd you've already top&bottom mic'd them? add two large diaphram mic's; one near the floor tom, the other on the hat side. Just a foot or so off the floor, 45 degree angle up, towards the kit, triangulated so that the kick and snare are as center as possible. Find the floor tom side first by finding the spot where it's note is tightest and most pronounced. Bus these two mic's into the room mic Buses. I will probably use a few room and ambient mic's, but, I'll make a stereo package of them; EQ'ing.compressing,ballancing untill I've got a great "Bonham'ish" picture that could be drum sound all by itself. This saves tracks, and time later(getting back the ballance that was there at tracking)...it'll take alot of time later to get the balance you have now...if ever.

KEEP CHECKING RELATIVE PHASE ALL THE TIME.

Learn to be allergic to phase. it is really quite obvious sounding; the more you become attune to it.

Anyway, my most condensed rule is: Start with the big picture and then refine the details. If you start with getting the kit to sound good and in the right spot; then the room/ambient mic's;then the OH"s; and lastly the spot mic's wou'll improve your sounds immensely.
Starting traditionally; with the first kick mic(s) solo'd and having the drummer just hit his kick for five minutes while you EQ/compress/ballance the kick, then the snare, etc. will get you to the traditionally frankenstein sounding drums most people tend to record. By the time you get to the Rooms and OH's your relative phase is affected by the over EQ'd individual mic's you've allraedy worked. So at this point you'll satisfy yourself with a hasty room setup that adds some "room" to the sound but isn't really a wholistic part of the sound. So six weeks later when you or someone else brings up that kit they'll diss the room sound and start adding 'verb.

Of coursse if the room itself sucks...run away from it. Use baffles, and get all the AIR out of the OH's. Refer to my OH mic techmique (or any other one that gets you there)

...gotta run, or I'll be late for my downbeat
-recorderman, away....

tubedude Wed, 12/12/2001 - 01:49

Recorderman- any rock tracks online where you used this technique, that I can hear? I just want to hear how much cymbal you get out of it. Seems like I always wanted them higher, but this sounds way interesting. Anyone else have any tracks posted with this technique?
Do you typically need a kick mic with this technique, too, and I would assume the phase would need to be reversed on it. Correct?
Also, has anyone tried Harveys bottom feeder MXL 603s as overheads with a good preamp, yet? If so, how'd you like them?
Thanks!

Attached files

RecorderMan Wed, 12/12/2001 - 07:00

TubeDude-
The first record I've used this on was recorded last Jan. and probably won't be out till June of '02. same with everything after that.

1. Also; I usually use lots of mic's, but this takes a really balanced picture of the kit. I'd still stick one mic out front, even if it's not really close, to get a bit more kick (if your on the minimal path).
2. Even though the mics are low, there not right on top of the cymbals, so the cymbal balance is compareable to having the mics over the cymbals, but higher...

Attached files

tubedude Thu, 12/13/2001 - 00:53

I realize this will get the kick and snare in phase, but what about everything else? Pretty good? I'm kind of a minimalist because I have to be when it comes to drums, I like kick/snare/pair, and maybe a room or two. Does this technique work out better than an xy pair as far as phase issues go?

Attached files

RecorderMan Thu, 12/13/2001 - 16:41

Originally posted by tubedude:
I realize this will get the kick and snare in phase, but what about everything else? Pretty good? I'm kind of a minimalist because I have to be when it comes to drums, I like kick/snare/pair, and maybe a room or two. Does this technique work out better than an xy pair as far as phase issues go?

YES. but it's not just about phase....Notice how Rack toms are higher off the floor than the floor tom(s)? this Oh set-up is cognizant of that. The OH over the snare is higher than the right shoulder, So It captures the toms well...add tom mics and it'll be fine. Like I've said before...I use LOTS of mics when i can (i.e. big studio:lots of mic's,pre's and channels/buses). Or just use these OH's,a kick,snare and room mic as you've posed and you'll be well covered.

Attached files

Hack Thu, 12/13/2001 - 19:46

RecorderMan,
Thank you for the info, it will go in my collection of "great stuff to have in a folder under the console".

The room is big. I have two smaller ones that are alittle over 1/4th the size of the big one. All the rooms have 2 sheetrock walls and two "insulation exposed" walls. There is alot of stuff in the rooms. When you hit a snare you don't really hear a repeating delay. Depending on where you are you may hear one good slapback.

1. The band is heavy. Very melodic with lots of vocals. Kings X influence. I want to hear the toms very easily. The kick and snare need to seem pretty big. Lots of cool kick is very important to the band. I'm just guessing that I wont have a problem finding the snare in this room.

2. The rock stuff I have listened to latley has very stereo drums. Espically the cymbals. Alot of times they seem hard left and right. How wide is your overhead setup and how do you adjust to make t seem wider or narrower?

Attached files

anonymous Fri, 12/14/2001 - 22:12

Hi RecorderMan,

Tried ur setup this week. Works gr8, I really enjoyed it.

Like U said, adding the rest of the mics was easy, like this setup was made 4 it.

The sound was natural and clear. Stereo image was fine. Drums balance made sense.

(Btw, Hack: the image is wide enough, 10x 2 the Haas effect: sound arriving at the mics at different times. Levels on the other hand r more equal (L&R) than in the AB case, and IMHO will trigger better when compressed. I did not compress while tracking, however I’ve played around with the SSL’s quad just 2 get a fair idea).

1 more thing I’ve noticed: Since the cymbals are off-axis, and the snare’n’kick are on-axis, the snare and kick come out brighter in relation 2 the cymbals- This will b appreciated by any engineer recording enthusiastic drummers… :-)

I used cardioids, U might have guessed.

The drummer looked somewhat suspiciously at the setup, thinking there was something wrong. I have assured him it was ok.

After playing the 1st take and listening in the control room, he bowed and saluted in a humorous gesture of respect.

10x 4 a gr8 tip,

Peace,

Zooot.

RecorderMan Sat, 12/15/2001 - 11:57

Great to hera Zoot & Hack.

BTW, I saw what I consider to be a very cool tip somewhere else on this board, regarding mic'ing drums. Someone reiterated the concept of using the floor tom to find the spot in the room where the floor tom itself is loudest. Then positionnig OH's to make it the loudest, then the rest of the drums,etc...sounds like fun.

If you've got enough mics, try the 'old' top and bottom mic's on Snare & Toms. If youi have enough gates...gate each bottom mic;keyed by it's corresponding top mic. use a reange of 6-10db and belnd these in around -10db and out of phase to each said corresp[onding top mic. Comp each Top&bottom mic to a single track. You'll get ammazing botton...done right...check all phases...
Also...mic in kick & mick just outside of kick...comped to one track (=greate depth). Then stick another mic about three feet in front of kick (on it's own track or blended into a Room(s) comp track)........Or forget and go minimal....haver fun and keep impressing those clients!

anonymous Sat, 12/15/2001 - 22:29

Hi RecorderMan,

On that session I used a variation of the FT trick:

Since the room had a low(ish) ceiling and an angled glass wall (9’ x 11’ ) separating an iso booth, the snare sound varied dramatically when moved around the room.

I found the best spot 4 the snare by playing the drum while moving it around the room, and taped the stand 2 the floor.

I then played the FT while moving it in a circle around the snare, covering all the possible placement spots, in relation 2 the snare. At the point where it sounded best (i.e. loud …:-) ) I taped the FT “legs” 2 the floor.

Then the rest of the kit was added.

When I know I’ll need a good ambient kick sound in the room mics, I’ll move the kick instead of the FT around the snare drum looking 4 the best spot.

So there r 2 variants 2 control: kit’s placement and orientation.

Since the kit’s position and orientation will affect the placement of other players and instruments (eye contact and separation), I do this first, when the room is empty.

Good tip with the bottom micing. I can only add that when using SSL I’ll route the snare/ tom mics 2 adjacent channels on the mixer, cuz dynamics r easily keyed this way using the “>” button. This saves me additional gates / patching.

10x again 4 sharing ur knowledge and expertise.

Man, I love this forum.

Peace,

Zooot.

anonymous Sun, 12/16/2001 - 11:03

Hi Hack,

Just like RcorderMan said, 1 mic pointing @ the snare from above its centre, the other 1 aimed @ the snare, then tweaked a little outwards, till the kick is in the middle of the image. Re-check the distances from the kick and snare.

The way it looks may mislead… both mics looking @ ~ the snare, the right (FT side) mic is lower and tilted. It doesn’t look symmetrical, but it IS.
Don’t look… it works. The cymbals r there, in nice stereo, sounding natural. Close mics “slide” comfortably in.

Kick, snr, toms and mono room mics were eq’d, oh were panned 90% L&R. This was a tracking session, panning and eq may vary @ the mix.

Good luck with ur session,

Peace,

Zooot.

Hack Mon, 12/17/2001 - 01:50

I may have had my FT side mic aimed alittle too far out but this is best drum sound I've ever had. It finally sounds like a drum kit, not just a bunch of different drums with close mics. The stereo image on the cymbals was great. At this studio I don't have a stereo headphone mix in the drum room. I might be able to create some crazy Y cable gizmo to get the two available mixes into one stereo mix, but it would be a 30' Y cable. And the phones sound like shit at this studio anyway. (Headphone systems would be another great topic to hear about)

It doesn't seem like there is a way to center the kick with mono phones. Am I stuck recording and moving and recording and moving and.....?

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